Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin

[Grains]

The confusion may come over the term 'deficit'.

There was no ANNUAL deficit when Bush came to office. As a matter of fact, there was an annual surplus.

While there was a long term deficit when Bush came to office is was shrinking at that time. Since then it has grown, by a lot.

 

Z, thanks for posting this and clearing up any confusion. You are absolutely correct. I found this graph which is helpful as well. I attached it to this message.

[Moontanman]

Moon, great post. Good to know how you really feel about conservatives. I assume sometime in your life you were treated poorly by Republicans and you have lumped them all in the same barrel?

Now, if the moderators are consistent, you will be punished for making a ''snarky'' comment.

As far as I am concerned, I am more interested in learning why someone would feel the way you do than punishing you. Could you tell how the liberals have helped you while the R's were holding you down?

 

Don't be an *** Questor, I was making a point as to how things can get out of hand if people can say anything they want with out any substantiation. No one is punishing me or holding me down. It would be very easy to point fingers but it wouldn't help me or anyone else. I do feel very strongly if the Conservatives had their way i would be lucky to have a bridge to live under.

[questor]

So now I'm an ***, in addition to being a horrible conservative?

''I do feel very strongly if the Conservatives had their way i would be lucky to have a bridge to live under.''

Since we have a totally different view of the world, would you please explain

what the ''way'' is of conservatives that causes your angst? Do you long for

the interest rate of 20% of the Carter administration?

[Moontanman]

So now I'm an ***, in addition to being a horrible conservative?

''I do feel very strongly if the Conservatives had their way i would be lucky to have a bridge to live under.''

Since we have a totally different view of the world, would you please explain

what the ''way'' is of conservatives that causes your angst? Do you long for

the interest rate of 20% of the Carter administration?

 

You're only an *** if you took what i wrote literally. Several quite inflammatory remarks about liberals have been in this thread. I wanted the conservatives to see how untenable being able to say anything with out back up really is. The only reason why our country hasn't gone to hell in a hand basket is due to the balance between the two extremes. Personally I think we concentrate too much dividing our selves into right/left Conservative/liberal when we should be working together to build a strong country. Left unchallenged conservatives would have a country where women cannot vote, black people are still not allowed to be a whole person, the poor are cast aside like broken tools and the country would close to fascist. Extreme liberalism would not be prettier I am sure.

[modest]

Grains, your quote was from starwars, Obi Wan said something like: Who's the more foolish, the fool or the fool who follows him.

 

Moontanman, quit poking questor.

 

Questor, PM me if you seriously don't understand how I was trying to avoid the last 15 posts of destructive back-and-forth. I do appreciate your life experience and I have nothing against your opinion. The last contentious thread of this sorts degenerated into... well, something I'm not going to mention. But, we can avoid this here by taking Buffy's and Zythryn's advice and constructively discussing the topic...

 

Everyone, back to the topic, yes?... ok.

 

~modest

EDIT:

 

Sorry Grains, Star Wars is always the first place my mind goes :) It's:

"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."

- Mark Twain

[questor]

You better read up on your history, and in reading your posts it is obvious you have a deep dislike for either/or conservative people or ideas. How about furnishing a few links to back up these claims:

''Conservative/liberal when we should be working together to build a strong country. Left unchallenged conservatives would have a country where women cannot vote, black people are still not allowed to be a whole person, the poor are cast aside like broken tools and the country would close to fascist. Extreme liberalism would not be prettier I am sure.''

None of this rant is true and you should be aware that the country will never get together as long as people think like this.

[questor]

Modest, your suggestion is fine with me. Politics is a contentious subject. It doesn't have to get down and dirty if people don't wish it so. The differences in the value systems of liberals and conservatives ( for lack of better description) are many times in direct opposition. I personally think it is best to consider a world without a government. What would one do then? You would be totally responsible for yourself. How would you cope with that? Arguing about the candidates is useless unless one knows their positions on issues in some depth, otherwise the argument is about preconceived notions

and emotions probably started by the family and sometimes stretching back for generations.

So if we are to carry on this thread let's talk issues and keep an open mind.

[Thunderbird]

"the poor are cast aside like broken tools"

 

The dark side of capitalism. I have seen plenty of broken tools in my line of work, sad really. company's use to acknowledge good work by keeping people on for life and provide a retirement when they became to old to work, Now manufacturing companies have unwritten policies that after a time an employee should be gotten rid of. The military does it also but they tend to wait right before retirement..

[Moontanman]

You better read up on your history, and in reading your posts it is obvious you have a deep dislike for either/or conservative people or ideas. How about furnishing a few links to back up these claims:

''Conservative/liberal when we should be working together to build a strong country. Left unchallenged conservatives would have a country where women cannot vote, black people are still not allowed to be a whole person, the poor are cast aside like broken tools and the country would close to fascist. Extreme liberalism would not be prettier I am sure.''

None of this rant is true and you should be aware that the country will never get together as long as people think like this.

 

Yeah, I guess the liberals should just surrender to the inevitable and let the conservatives run the country, I know you guys have all the right answers. Fascist theocracy here we come! I'm outta here.....

[Grains]

Grains, your quote was from starwars, Obi Wan said something like: Who's the more foolish, the fool or the fool who follows him.

 

Moontanman, quit poking questor.

 

Questor, PM me if you seriously don't understand how I was trying to avoid the last 15 posts of destructive back-and-forth. I do appreciate your life experience and I have nothing against your opinion. The last contentious thread of this sorts degenerated into... well, something I'm not going to mention. But, we can avoid this here by taking Buffy's and Zythryn's advice and constructively discussing the topic...

 

Everyone, back to the topic, yes?... ok.

 

~modest

EDIT:

 

Sorry Grains, Star Wars is always the first place my mind goes :) It's:

"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."

- Mark Twain

 

I was so happy to see the Star Wars as well! :)

Lets go with that one!

[Donk]

I've been told many times to keep my British nose out of US politics. My take is that if you guys want to brawl in public on an international board, you can't complain if we join in the "fun".

 

Your political system is in a lot of trouble. I don't know if it's been caused by the media, the reading/viewing public, the politicians, or whether it's some secret Illuminatus plot to bring down democracy. Your so-called "debate" is composed of either childish mudslinging or outright lies about what the other side says and thinks. Mainly, but not entirely, from the Republican side. The "lipstick on a pig" furore is a typical example. I read Obama's comment about it:

Some of you may have - I'm assuming you guys have heard this, watching the news. I'm talking about John McCain's economic politics, I say, "This is more of the same, you can put lipstick on a pig but it's still a pig."

 

And suddenly they say, "Oh, you must be talking about the governor of Alaska."

 

See it would be funny, it would be funny except - of course the news media all decided that that was the lead story yesterday. They'd much rather have the story - this is the McCain campaign - would much rather have the story about phony and foolish diversions than about the future.

 

This happens every election cycle. Every four years. This is what we do. We've got an energy crisis. We have an education system that is not working for too many of our children and making us less competitive. We have an economy that is creating hardship for families all across America. We've got two wars going on, veterans coming home not being cared for - and this is what they want to talk about! this is what they want to spend two of the last 55 days talking about.

 

You know who ends up losing at the end of the day? It's not the Democratic candidate, It's not the republican candidate. It's you, the American people. because then we go another year or another four years or another eight years without addressing the issues that matter to you. Enough.

 

I don't care what they say about me, but I love this country too much to let them take over another election with lies and phony outrage and swift-boat politics. Enough is enough.

And to balance it, since it isn't my election, a comment from Brian Rogers, spokesman for McCain:

Barack Obama can't campaign with schoolyard insults and then try to claim outrage at the tone of the campaign. His talk of new politics is as empty as his campaign trail promises, and his record of bucking his party and reaching across the aisle simply doesn't exist.

Maybe Obama's trying to have it both ways, as Rogers says. But how about, at least on this forum, pretending that he means it? Otherwise you don't have a democracy any more. You have a reality TV show.

[Racoon]

Why "fault"?

 

I hope the Republicans win.

Then they can dig themselves into an even deeper hole.

 

I would hate to be the next Government of the USA and try and dig out of the shite you are in.

 

I'm convinced you hate America michael.

 

Too bad for you the Aussies have their life rafts attached to the U.S.S American and face many of the same problems, albeit on a smaller scale than we do in the states.

 

If you cancel out the Bush Jr. Administration, we were a decent country once.

I guess we have to settle for the most Olympic Medals.

[questor]

As far as Capitalism ''casting people aside'', I would like to offer a few observations:

1. no one forces you to take a specific job or stay in a specific job. this is your own choice. the more education you get, teh better job you get.

2. once you have a job, you are at liberty to better yourself and get a better job. no one but you is responsible for this choice.

3. companies must make a profit or they go out of business. many companies go out of business and the jobs go with them.

4. capitalism does not offer cradle to the grave security, but you are free to do anything possible to make yourself a better life. it is all ON YOU.

5. your own life choices will determine what you become. look at yourself honestly, you are where you are by the choices you made.

6. don't look for the government to save you, if everyone did this, the government would go out of business. IT'S ALL ON YOU!

[Moontanman]

As far as Capitalism ''casting people aside'', I would like to offer a few observations:

1. no one forces you to take a specific job or stay in a specific job. this is your own choice. the more education you get, teh better job you get.

2. once you have a job, you are at liberty to better yourself and get a better job. no one but you is responsible for this choice.

3. companies must make a profit or they go out of business. many companies go out of business and the jobs go with them.

4. capitalism does not offer cradle to the grave security, but you are free to do anything possible to make yourself a better life. it is all ON YOU.

5. your own life choices will determine what you become. look at yourself honestly, you are where you are by the choices you made.

6. don't look for the government to save you, if everyone did this, the government would go out of business. IT'S ALL ON YOU!

 

Questor, do you really think all those things are that easy to do? If you really do then you don't live in the same reality as I do. Jobs are not like coats, if you get one you don't like you just get another one? Most people do not get to make most of their life choices, either you live a charmed life with no basis in the real world or you have never really had to make hard decisions. I suspect you have no clue as to what it's like to live in the real world of deciding to eat, drive or live under a roof, chose any two! I honestly hope your charmed life continues on with out interruption but you need to realize not every one has that easy, some of us have to make hard decisions, often. Sometimes we choose wrong, I don't think that the wrong choice should condemn a person for ever. Once you get a job often it's the only job available and changing jobs regularly is a bad thing, no a good thing. Even employers look down at a person who seems to be unable to decide what he wants to do. Why do you keep harping on the governemnt saving you, do you really think people are sitting around trying to figure out a way for the governemnt to support them? Most people are too busy trying to survive to worry about that. I know almost no one, liberal or conservative, who thinks the government should support everyone. Come down off the mountain questor, reality is calling you.

[questor]

Moon, since you don't know my history, I'll tell you a little. My father was a shoe salesman during the Depression, making about $ 400. per month. My mother was a nurse who had to work 8 hour shifts, often at night to make about $4. per hour. We lived in a small house with no gutters , so we had no grass on our yard like our neighbors did. I had jobs on the farm, hauling furniture, 2 paper routes throughout high school, worked on the docks as a longshoreman, was shipment manager for a steamship company and various other small jobs to make a buck. I went to junior college for 2 years because I could'nt afford a larger school. I stuck with it with odd jobs and minimal help fom my mother and none from my father who had deserted us when I was 11. So don't give me this crap about a privileged life. Why don't you live in the real world and figure out how you can help yourself? I can guarantee you will die poor waiting for the goverment to make your life better. When I wake up in the morning I'm not trying to figure out what the government is going to do for me, I'm trying to figure out what I need to do to get better.

By the way, this is not to pick on you personally, but I think every America who constantly whines about Capitalism and not enough money or jobs, needs to take a good look in the mirror. That is the guy to blame.

[Donk]

As far as Capitalism ''casting people aside'', I would like to offer a few observations:

1. no one forces you to take a specific job or stay in a specific job. this is your own choice. the more education you get, teh better job you get.

2. once you have a job, you are at liberty to better yourself and get a better job. no one but you is responsible for this choice.

3. companies must make a profit or they go out of business. many companies go out of business and the jobs go with them.

4. capitalism does not offer cradle to the grave security, but you are free to do anything possible to make yourself a better life. it is all ON YOU.

5. your own life choices will determine what you become. look at yourself honestly, you are where you are by the choices you made.

6. don't look for the government to save you, if everyone did this, the government would go out of business. IT'S ALL ON YOU!

Once your starry-eyed view of capitalism and the free market would have been right. An entrepreneur saw a market niche, made a prospectus and sold shares. The company was set up. If the company prospered, everyone did well - the management, the employees, the shareholders. Share dividends usually paid rather more than securities, reflecting the risk that investors take.

 

The share price used to simply reflect the expected dividend: if securities paid 5%, you'd expect to get 7%-10% return on investment from equities. If the dividend is expected to be £1 per share, the share price would be £10-£14, varying with how "risky" the company looks. Some years ago the focus changed - investors weren't looking for dividends, they were looking for share price increase.

 

Nowadays there's increasing pressure on companies to beat the market. It used to be enough that a company traded profitably, but now they have to do better than that. So they cut costs where possible. They've always expected loyalty from their employees, but many show none in return. If they can make more money by outsourcing, they'll outsource.

 

Take Burberry for instance. A long-established UK clothing company, selling good-quality stuff to the well-off. In 2006 they closed their factory in Wales and outsourced to China. They'd just posted a 25% profit increase, but they still wanted more.

 

Tell me, questor:

 

1. Do you believe that employees should show loyalty and enthusiasm toward the company that pays them? It's pretty much a given - but shouldn't it go both ways?

 

2. Do you think all those workers in the Burberry factory are at fault? That they should have seen the possibility of outsourcing, and decided not to spend years building specialised skills?

 

3. How much profit is enough? Or is there no limit?

 

4. Companies set up executive share option schemes so that senior management would get a good payout if the company did well. Those executives have the power to make decisions such as outsourcing, which will hurt hundreds or thousands of their employees while earning themselves a hefty chunk of cash. Do you feel that is morally right?

 

Please note that nothing here is suggesting there should be government handouts. I'm just saying that modern corporations are beginning to act quite a lot like the old-time robber barons did in the Middle Ages. Everything for themselves, and let the peasants starve. That was legal too - but was it moral???

[Buffy]

Hey c'mon people! Let's get back to talking about lipstick or abuse of power or healthcare proposals or going to war with Russia or something *relevant* to the topic of the thread!

 

Last warning before I forcibly rip this thread into 3 or 4 separate ones....

 

Thank you for your cooperation. :hihi:

 

Every man ought to be supposed a knave, and to have no other end, in all his actions, but private interest. By this interest we must govern him, and by means of it, make him cooperate to public good, notwithstanding his unsatiable avarice and ambition, -_-

Buffy