Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin

[questor]

Thunderbird, when you interview the jobless, do you advise them to only take jobs in liberal companies? Do you advise some of them to get newspaper classified ads from other cities to expand their possibilities? Do you get them to clean up their life before they interview for a job? Do you administer aptitude tests

to determine their job skills? Is it the Republicans fault these people are jobless? If Obama is elected will he solve this problem? If so, how? If he can eliminate poverty, by all means, let us elect him.

[jackson33]

Questor, your posts so often are full of inflammatory adjectives and phrases.

If I ask you this I hope you won't flee the thread as you have your last couple of threads.

Do you honestly think Obama supporters are, to quote you "Obama lovers"?

What is the purpose of using such a term to describe people that are planning on voting for Obama?

 

And no, democrats are not perfect and not all democrats are even good, and not all republicans are bad. However, the republican control over 2 of the divisions of our government, you have to admit, has left a lot to be desired.

 

If you could answer my question, I am truly interested in if your intentions match the general tone of your post.

 

Thanks

 

What you are asking is to link an opinion of the KKK and of society, in white society in general, 50-100 years ago. I seriously doubt...

 

What IMO the intent was to link the 'Obama Phenomenon' to that a reaction to the candidacy itself. During the early primary/caucus season Senator Obama was speaking in generalities, 'Hope, Future and yes we can', he and his handlers were basing their campaign on the fact he was Black, did have a funny name to Americans. Frankly it worked and no other person, any race, sex or experience could have done this. On Super Tuesday it became apparent that was not going to be enough, Hillary was and did make a comeback and issues would be required from then on. This didn't work and if the Democrat Party system in place had been used 'super delegates' he would not have received the nomination. He (Obama) has made race an issue on several occasions warning his followers (however described) that some unknown opposition was going to make those original factors (race, name, history) an issue. No opposition, Hillary to the Republicans have ever said anything about those factors and in fact Obama made sex an issue by picking his VP over that of the peoples choice, Ms. Clinton. FOR WHATEVER REASON.

 

Congress, is in charge of all spending, period. One of McCain's principle arguments is that the Republicans were in charge of Congress from 1994 to 2006 and DID NOT practice what they preached to gain that control and that Bush II, seemed to forget the power of the VETO. The two divisions of government, sometimes called branches (Executive and Judicial) are currently held by republicans, however both represent the total population. Each member of the Congress either represents THEIR State or a district in that State. Their is an intended difference...

[Thunderbird]

Thunderbird, when you interview the jobless, do you advise them to only take jobs in liberal companies?

:)

 

 

Do you advise some of them to get newspaper classified ads from other cities to expand their possibilities?

Moving is an option for very few.

Do you get them to clean up their life before they interview for a job? Do you administer aptitude tests.

These are the responsibilities that are handeled by other agencys

 

Is it the Republicans fault these people are jobless?

Everyone is responsible for their own life, 100%. Everyone in society is responsible for how we treat our poor, 100%.

 

If Obama is elected will he solve this problem? If so, how? If he can eliminate poverty, by all means, let us elect him.

No, but democrates tend to understand we are all in the same boat together like it or not.

[jackson33]

I spend 40 hrs a week helping poor people to find job training, education, and jobs. While I do agree that life is what you make it, funding for education is hard to find, The news paper does have allot of jobs but the jobs are 70 miles away. Allot of people have no vehicles, have drug convections that will exclude them from education funding or employment. Just as Bush.. you do not understand poverty. This became apparent during hurricane Katrina. Do you remember... Hey why didn’t those people just do like everyone else, just jump in your land rover drive north and get a room at a comfort in till the storm was over. Get a clue

 

First and most important, I appreciate your efforts on behalf of any person.

 

We have supposedly 12-20 million folks in this country today doing jobs, said American will not take. You can usually find a few hanging around Home Depot or any number of retailers, street corners or where ever people expect to find THEM. They are not usually educated, have cars or even eligible for work, but they get jobs, with out assistance.

 

Employers or menial labor are desperate for workers. In my little town in NM, we have an unemployment rate of 1.5% and every little grocery (25 or so) motel (15) is looking for any one that can read, write and looks somewhat presentable to the public. A local Road Construction project is 12 months behind schedual for lack of workers and our oil fields are begging for 25.00 an hour workers. However we also have whats said to be the worst poverty level in the State, people on welfare, most pregnancies for teen agers and one of the highest school drop out rates. At some point realization that working means just that and not all people actually WANT to work. I understand its a 'catch 22' and providing for people is important, but again realistically, you can't pay or reward for not working, then basically punish (take away benefits) them for doing what should have been a solution in the first place.

[Moontanman]

That is scary, do these e-mails come from sanctioned Republican groups?

 

I have no idea, i suspect there is a connection with a organized group, the e-mails are too well timed to events not to be organized in some way. I almost never get anything from Democrats and I never get wild totally false crap from democrats. The republican message seems to be one of fear and terror aimed at the less than informed members of our society. It's sad but many people really are vulnerable to this sort of fear tactics. If they had access to more information they wouldn't be so easy to mislead but in our day and age it's easy to ignore the stuff that doesn't match your world view and if you look you can find a news broadcast that tells you exactly what you want to hear. When these sources give out info that is extreme it's easy to believe it because everything else they put out is just what you think should be true. I think these extreme messages are targeted to people who want to believe the worst and they also influence people who are afraid that they are not being told how bad things really are. It's sad, i want to believe the republican party would stop this stuff if they could. I have a difficult time believing that someone like McCain would want such things aiding him in his campaign. but he obviously is not in control of what is being sent out by these people. there are groups in our society that want to destabilize the status quo no matter what the result. I think it's religious zealots who are ultimately responsible, most of these extreme messages have a religious content of some sort.

[Zythryn]

What you are asking is to link an opinion of the KKK and of society, in white society in general, 50-100 years ago. I seriously doubt...

 

I appreciate your attempt to answer my query.

 

However, first, I can't make heads or tails out of your sentence.

Second, I don't think you can answer for what Questor's intent was (which may be why the first sentence make little sense:))

However, if you want to try again...

Are you comparing Questor's opinion to that of the KKK? If not, what is the opinion of the KKK being linked TO?

If so, I won't go that far until I hear it from the speaker. Now, if he does hold similar opinions I wouldn't expect Questor to flee from discussions when he is asked exactly what he means. We will see if he continues to ignore my requests in this thread as well.

[freeztar]

Poverty does not have to mean destitute or homeless. A few years ago, I worked at Office Depot for $7.90 an hour. They hired me as part-time and I took it because I was desparate for a job. I barely got by each month and started accruing debt just to pay my bills. I could not afford much besides the basics. If I were a full time employee, I would have received health benefits and other benefits, but instead they chose to keep me "part-time" and work me 39 hours a week (if I worked an hour more, they would have to make me full-time). They also would not give me breaks, but finally did once I threatened to report them to the law. :) When I got sick, I dealt with it. If I missed a day, I was fired. When I returned home, I constantly battled a roach infestation and black mold (landlord would not do anything about either. Most of the time one or more utilities were cut off because I could not afford them. It was comical in a sense because it was a viscious trap in which my power would go out, I would have to pay $150 to reinstate it (on top of my bill with late penalties) and that $150 that was going to pay for water and gas (heat) went bye-bye. So the next month I would let my power bill go over due so I could reinstate water and gas. I doubt too many people here have ever lived under such conditions, and yet, I was considered middle-class. I was not eligible for any form of government assistance.

 

Fortunately, I was blessed to have parents that had enough money to send me to college and I finally got a job with my degree after 3 years of looking.

 

Unless you've been in a similar situation, or worse, it's completely arrogant to just say that people can pick themselves up by the bootstraps and need to take responsibility. People get trapped sometimes and when you're working two jobs just to pay your bills and avoid debt, it's a bit difficult to try to pursue higher education, or any other means of helping oneself.

 

I'm sick of hearing people with 6 digit incomes who were born with a silver spoon talking about how lazy the poor are. :(

 

I think poverty is (or should be) a non-partisan issue. I agree that our present system is not working, but I don't think the solution is to just abandon a large sector of our society. As TBird said, we are all in this together. Hopefully whomever becomes president will work to fix the present system.

 

I'll get off my soapbox now. :hihi:

[Thunderbird]

First and most important, I appreciate your efforts on behalf of any person.

 

We have supposedly 12-20 million folks in this country today doing jobs, said American will not take. You can usually find a few hanging around Home Depot or any number of retailers, street corners or where ever people expect to find THEM. They are not usually educated, have cars or even eligible for work, but they get jobs, with out assistance.

 

Employers or menial labor are desperate for workers. In my little town in NM, we have an unemployment rate of 1.5% and every little grocery (25 or so) motel (15) is looking for any one that can read, write and looks somewhat presentable to the public. A local Road Construction project is 12 months behind schedual for lack of workers and our oil fields are begging for 25.00 an hour workers. However we also have whats said to be the worst poverty level in the State, people on welfare, most pregnancies for teen agers and one of the highest school drop out rates. At some point realization that working means just that and not all people actually WANT to work. I understand its a 'catch 22' and providing for people is important, but again realistically, you can't pay or reward for not working, then basically punish (take away benefits) them for doing what should have been a solution in the first place.

Most have not developed the habits that allow them to integrate into society as a productive citizen. They have become accustom to prison life, most have ether issues with drugs or a preexisting mental condition. Our mission to help, other wise the public is at risk for additional crimes. Understand I am no bleeding heart. I just understand the problems as a societal one, as well as an individual one.

 

Cynicism is by far the most expensive trait we Americans exhibit. Whether you be a successful conservative voting in a “Get tough on Crime” politician, or a an angry ex-con that gives up on society and shoots you, or a family member for drug money. My job is to try to make sure he does not give up on the community by showing we will not give up on him.

[questor]

I'm a little sick of the constant implication that all well to do people were born with a silver spoon in their mouths. It shows a total lack of knowledge

and respect for those who do bring themselves up by their own efforts. Mold can be eradicated by the tenant and clorox. There are cheap roach traps that can be used by tenants. A good conversation with a landlord usually generates a symbiotic relationship. His property and sizable investment are at risk, you can move out when you please with no risk. Poverty is mostly in the mind, not the pocketbook, and cannot be cured by giving money. A person can be poor in dollars yet have a clean house, clean clothes and if he wishes, can eventually achieve success. He can go to the library for free, he can train himself for a variety of jobs, he can constantly try to move ahead rather than sit on his butt. Tell me a good reason why a healthy, high school educated, well spoken person has to live in poverty?

giving up at the first obstacle.

[Moontanman]

Poverty does not have to mean destitute or homeless. A few years ago, I worked at Office Depot for $7.90 an hour. They hired me as part-time and I took it because I was desparate for a job. I barely got by each month and started accruing debt just to pay my bills. I could not afford much besides the basics. If I were a full time employee, I would have received health benefits and other benefits, but instead they chose to keep me "part-time" and work me 39 hours a week (if I worked an hour more, they would have to make me full-time). They also would not give me breaks, but finally did once I threatened to report them to the law. :) When I got sick, I dealt with it. If I missed a day, I was fired. When I returned home, I constantly battled a roach infestation and black mold (landlord would not do anything about either. Most of the time one or more utilities were cut off because I could not afford them. It was comical in a sense because it was a viscious trap in which my power would go out, I would have to pay $150 to reinstate it (on top of my bill with late penalties) and that $150 that was going to pay for water and gas (heat) went bye-bye. So the next month I would let my power bill go over due so I could reinstate water and gas. I doubt too many people here have ever lived under such conditions, and yet, I was considered middle-class. I was not eligible for any form of government assistance.

 

Fortunately, I was blessed to have parents that had enough money to send me to college and I finally got a job with my degree after 3 years of looking.

 

Unless you've been in a similar situation, or worse, it's completely arrogant to just say that people can pick themselves up by the bootstraps and need to take responsibility. People get trapped sometimes and when you're working two jobs just to pay your bills and avoid debt, it's a bit difficult to try to pursue higher education, or any other means of helping oneself.

 

I'm sick of hearing people with 6 digit incomes who were born with a silver spoon talking about how lazy the poor are. :(

 

I think poverty is (or should be) a non-partisan issue. I agree that our present system is not working, but I don't think the solution is to just abandon a large sector of our society. As TBird said, we are all in this together. Hopefully whomever becomes president will work to fix the present system.

 

I'll get off my soapbox now. :hihi:

 

I know exactly where you are coming from, I've been there several times in my life. I remember when I first got out on my own I had a flat tire four times in one day. Yes four different tires. I fixed the first one and the second one, used a spare for one but the last one was just too much. I couldn't get my car inspected with all the patched may-pop tires, I had to make a decision, did I want to eat, drive or pay my rent. Since I had to drive to go to work (new job) I chose to drive and so buy a new set of tires and it took almost a year of juggling pay this but not that to recover. I was lucky in that my new job paid rather well ($3.00 an hour) but it was amazingly difficult to get out of the hole once I was in it. It just seemed like the system was rigged to slap down anyone who failed the first time. Penalties for being late are killers! Only determination got me out of it but I was single no kids and no one but me to support. If I went a couple of days with out eating or with out electricity it wasn't a big deal, I wonder how difficult it would have been if I would have had a wife and kids to support as well as myself? I never quite got that far into a hole after that until recently and I am on the ragged edge of just that hole now. Very scary to look down and see the abyss one more time. I don't think I will fall over the edge this time, I am a little smarter now and a better planner but it wouldn't take but one more thing to go wrong right now and boom over the edge I would go. My experiences have made me much more likely to help others when I can, knowing how difficult it really is to climb up makes me more appreciative of the feelings of others. Yes I know there are people who only want to skate through life, but I honestly don't think it's as many people as most of the neocons would have us believe. Many people honestly struggle their whole lives trying to make it, not make it big, just make it. I have seen many people really try over and over again only to fail every time. Sometimes the failure was their fault sometimes it wasn't but they still tried, over and over again. Even the most hardened self sufficient conservative could be broken by such circumstances. So yes I think we as a people have a obligation to help people, I think the help should be done in a way that allows people to succeed, not keep them down. At one time I considered applying for welfare, I looked into it and it was apparent that I would not ever be able to climb out if I allowed myself to go that route. I couldn't own a decent car or most anything of value and once you loose those things the climb out becomes far more difficult. I will not allow myself to fall down to the point of no return with out fighting my life away. To me it's do or die but not everyone is quite that determined and I wonder if i would be if I hadn't tasted success in the past. If I had no history of success or what it took to succeed would I be so determined to climb out after a life time of failure? I really wonder.

[questor]

Moontan and Freeztar, what do you think is a fair resolution of the problems you are experiencing?

[Moontanman]

Moontan and Freeztar, what do you think is a fair resolution of the problems you are experiencing?

 

I honestly don't know, I don't feel I am at the level that the government should step in give me a free out but it doesn't really look like I am going to ever be even close to safe in my future. My problems started 12 years ago with injury, doctors who wanted a guinea pig and years of struggle with intense pain. I could down grade my life again and go for living in subsidized housing in a run down apartment somewhere I could walk to an over priced store to buy my daily food needs with no life other than survival but I intend to fight that with every thing I have. It's just that it's become apparent that every thing I have just may not be enough. Some of the problems are my own others are not, the worst ones are nothing but crap that happened because of a bureaucracy that stumbles along with no care of who it steps on. I think those things piss me off the worst, to be stomped on out of blind circumstance is difficult to take. I am really not bitter but I know that everyone who fails is not a slacker.

[jackson33]

Most have not developed the habits that allow them to integrate into society as a productive citizen. They have become accustom to prison life, most have ether issues with drugs or a preexisting mental condition. Our mission to help, other wise the public is at risk for additional crimes. Understand I am no bleeding heart. I just understand the problems as a societal one, as well as an individual one.

 

Cynicism is by far the most expensive trait we Americans exhibit. Whether you be a successful conservative voting in a “Get tough on Crime” politician, or a an angry ex-con that gives up on society and shoots you, or a family member for drug money. My job is to try to make sure he does not give up on the community by showing we will not give up on him.

 

Now knowing your field, I am glad I praised any effort. This would be one area we probably do agree on and have argued the injustice of punishments rolled out in the courts, many times. Frankly, I would like to see records of first time offenders of all crime, be sealed. IMO, we would see far fewer repeat offenders. Then I would like to see more effort in the prison system, especially for the minor offenders, or younger offenders for actual rehabilitation, see more work programs (linked to talent) and real wages. Think you get my point...

 

Having said this, we do have some in society that are just bad people. In an effort to protect from these few, those guilty of mis-guided judgments (for love, drugs or whatever) pay the same price and this includes, when punishment has been paid.

[Thunderbird]

Moonman , Freeztar Thank you for the stories and honesty. At one time had a good job and lived well and even though I was charitable to my fellow man, I was also arrogant in thinking I understood my neighbors problems that were constantly struggling to make it. Not any more. Here is a small part of my story published in the local paper I have edited it somewhat however.

 

 

 

Biggest challenge is to believe

Thunderbird spends his time helping ex-offenders find jobs

 

By Daily Journal Staff Writer

Tuesday, August 19, 2008

 

Thunderbird spent four years in the Navy, visited at least 13 different countries and had a good job at a Missouri prison for 11 years. But when his life fell apart, Thunderbird plummeted to the bottom and hit hard.

 

He did four months on the other side of prison bars after he was caught growing marijuana that he used to lessen his anxiety attacks. His stint in prison helped Thunderbird come to turns with his life and the mistakes he made. After getting himself back on track, Thunderbird now works with other ex-offenders to help them do the same.

 

Thunderbird is the VISTA Missouri Partnership for Reentry Coordinator for the Washington County Community Partnership’s Reentry Process Team, which is part of the statewide Missouri Reentry Process (MRP). The reentry initiative focuses on providing offenders with the skills and services they need in order to become productive, law-abiding citizens after release from prison.

 

Farmington Correctional Center implemented the reentry process about two years ago in a special, transitional housing unit. The prisons in Potosi and Bonne Terre are scheduled to begin the process this month.

 

The statewide goal is to begin preparing for release on the day an offender enters prison. Early studies indicate that the transitional housing unit classes and services have lowered recidivism (return to prison) rates among participants.

 

Partnerships with community teams is designed to continue where the prison programs end. They also help ex-offenders who did not have the opportunity to participate in the reentry process in prison. Jefferson County has a similar partnership and groups such as Project COPE and the Center for Women in Transition in the St. Louis provide similar services as well.

 

Washington County’s team’s mission is to “integrate successful reentry principles and practices within the community, resulting in a partnership with open communications that enhance self-sufficiency for the offender, reduces recidivism and improves public safety” in Washington, Iron and Reynolds counties.

 

The three counties are home to more than 850 ex-offenders on probation or parole. Many live in poverty, suffer from chronic substance abuse, have poor education and have high unemployment rates, according to the reentry team’s charter.

 

In January, St. Francois, Ste. Genevieve and Madison counties established a reentry steering team charter to explore the same goals as in Washington County. These three counties have approximately 1,200 ex-offenders on probation or parole.

 

The Washington County team includes city officials, local businesses, social services and job employment staff. The team works out of the Community Partnership office on ********. Thunderbird has his office in the building.

 

There, he meets with ex-offenders to help them line up jobs, fill out forms and plan their future. Some, such as veterans or disabled persons who are released from prison can receive help applying for benefits for which they qualify. Jobless ex-offenders can receive assistance in seeking jobs. Parents might need help with child support issues. The problems and needed services vary.

 

Transportation, especially in the Parkland and surrounding areas, is a big problem for many. Thunderbird would like to start a program where people could donate used cars and ex-offenders could buy them at a reasonable price.

 

Thunderbird never forgets what led him to this job. He had worked in the heating and cooling department of an area prison until his arrest. Because he knew the inner workings of a prison, Thunderbird was considered an escape risk. He did his four months in administrative segregation, a highly secure section of prison where inmates are locked up close to 24 hours per day.

 

By the time he walked out of prison, Thunderbird had lost everything — wife, job, home, self-confidence.

 

“There was no place to go but up,” he recalled.

 

Thunderbird found a church that provided an excellent alternative to drugs. He found odd jobs and received counseling.

 

“I was shown the hard way with the problem with my habits,” he said. “Problems come from not living the life you’re supposed to.”

 

In his role with the reentry program,Thunderbird is responsible for meeting with men and women who are on probation or parole. Some are referred, others contact him on their own at *******.

 

One of the first things their parole officers tell them to do is to get a job. Thunderbird helps, but it isn’t easy to find employment in the area if you are an ex-con and have transportation problems.

 

“Corporations have cracked down and they’re not hiring anybody with felony convictions,” he said. “We need to hold job fairs, talk with employers and educate the community.”

 

Thunderbird said he sees a different side of ex-offenders.

 

“Most people think you come out of prison a rough person,” he said. “What I see is a lot of fragility in people. They’re scared, off balance, and the only habits they have had in the past are bad ones.”

 

Still, he adds, most of his clients sincerely want to change their lives. The biggest challenge for an ex-offender is to believe things will get better.

 

He advises them to find alternatives with which to fill their lives.

 

“I know it’s tough,” he tells them. “Hook up with the community, church, counseling or drug rehab. But don’t give up hope.”

[questor]

Moontan, are you physically handicapped? What kind of work can you do? What are your skills?

[jackson33]

Thunderbird; I lived in Fredericktown for 13 years, at one point employed near 50 people and since have never asked anyone there or anyplace else, probably employed more than one parolee. With a current 1200 ex-cons in those three counties and so close to St. Louis, kind of sounds like a social problem and that area is very strict on law and punishment.

 

However it also a poor area for business in general. Last I check populations were decreasing and even Wal-Mart had moved out of Ftown.

 

One thought however would be to somehow generate a business, in the area and employ those ex-cons, as labor in that area is also scarce. It has been awhile and I no longer know many living in your area, but feel sure with your ambition and somewhat notoriety and a business idea/plan, you could do a little more than help find jobs, but offer them...

[questor]

T-bird, are you sure that you want to spend the rest of your life around a prison and a prison population? Since your felony was not one of life endangerment you could probably go to an entirely new environment and start all over. Why stay around an area of criminals and sadness? Will you have a better life doing this?