The U.S. Government is Disgusting

[Queso]

Finite options in brain. ;) :hihi:

[infamous]

Finite options in brain. ;) :hihi:

Let"s hear a few...........I'm interested.

[Queso]

Let"s hear a few...........I'm interested.

 

PM Me if you truly wish to hear my dreams, and my steps toward them.

That is off topic of this thread.

[ughaibu]

Anagram of 'cat+heart+brain': then I cart a bra.

[pgrmdave]

Racoon - all those possible motives don't add up to a single fact relevent to whether or not the US government lied. Hitler was good for the US economy, does that mean that we were involved in that too? Just because person A benefits from an action does not mean that person A caused such action, or even had anything to do with such action.

[pgrmdave]

I know you were just speculating, I'm just bouncing off your ideas - weeding through them to get to the good parts. And yes, i know that Hitler wasn't a great example, but I can't think of any examples right now except for that (my girlfriend came back from Germany yesterday and so I've been listening to stories about Germany all day).

 

Micheal Moores Movie did make some sense I thought. Have you seen it?

If the CIA doesn't even know the facts then how the hell are we supposed to?

 

I saw it, but it was really a poor documentary that couldn't be held as anything but speculation. It's easy to 'prove' conspiracy theory when part of a conspiracy is the cover-up, but just because it's possible doesn't mean that it's plausible.

 

Just to help you research some much more likely gov. lies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_Incident

[pgrmdave]

Micheal Moore offered ANYONE who could prove ANYTHING that was Factually Incorrect in that movie $10,000 or something along those lines

 

Did you see Fahrenhype 911? (I'll admit that it was very biased, but it did provide some counter-factual data) And don't forget how speculative Moore's film was - trying to 'imagine' what Bush was thinking is NOT factual.

 

And what about the WAR we went into on reasons that were LIES, p-dave??

Would You Consider that relavent at all??

 

Yes, and no. I agree that we were lied to about the war, but I don't think that we can extract meaning from a motive. I don't think we can say that 9/11 was good for the government's plans, thus it must have been caused by the government.

 

Seems you avoid the tougher questions, and respond to weaker points.

 

If I seem to be ignoring the tougher questions, it is mostly because I tend to multitask, so I respond to the easy ones first, then I'll eventually respond to the more difficult ones. It really just comes down to a matter of time - the easy ones are quicker so I respond to them first.

 

I'm a HUGE History Buff.

 

In that case I'll leave more of the history to you - I know a bit, but a lot of it doesn't really stick in my mind. Perhaps though the sinking of the Maine is a good analogy?

[infamous]

Thats bullsh*t pgrmdave.

 

Micheal Moore offered ANYONE who could prove ANYTHING that was Factually Incorrect in that movie $10,000 or something along those lines

 

And NO ONE could!

But Maybe YOU could for us?:confused:

Why don't you give us some facts pgrmdave, instead of always asking for them, and posting some link??

 

Actually Racoon, pgrmdave is an administrator at this forum and has every right and privilage to ask members for facts and evidence. Please remember that this forum has a chain of command without which it would turn into a free-for-all. Give the man the respect he's due, telling him; "Thats bullsh*t pgrmdave" shows a lack thereof......................Infy

[infamous]

edited.

 

And I respect pgrmdave. :confused: He challenges you to think, and thats good!

He's a pretty sharp tack.

Without question...........

 

What part of that Documentary was wrong???

because pgrmdave dismissed it completely

I don't think it is fair to suggest that he dismissed it completely Racoon.

 

 

And as much as I do respect pgrmdave, I don't think he has enough Real World Experience yet at age 19 or so.

He's earned his position here at Hypography Racoon and age has nothing to do with a person's value. Understand, I'm not scolding you. You have every right to disagree with anyone of the members, administrator or whatever. I have always thought your posts were intelligent and thoughtful, I'm just asking you to respect the positions and authority given to the staff of this forum.........I'm sure you can see where I'm coming from on this issue and if you think about it for a while, I'm confident you'll see the importance in what I'm trying to point out.............have a good one..................Infy

[pgrmdave]

Farenheit 911 painted ol' W. in a pretty bad light, for sure!

So what part was wrong??

What part of that Documentary was wrong???

because pgrmdave dismissed it completely

 

Well, for one, Farenheit 9/11 claimed that one of Bush's oil companies wanted to run a pipeline through Afghanistan, which wasn't true - yes, there were oil companies which wanted to do so, but not one that the Bush family was associated with financially. It made a big deal of recruiting, but failed to explain that the tactics that were shown are not typical, they aren't taught to recruiters, and they don't follow standard procedure. It had an interview with an Oregon(or was it Washington) State Trooper, claiming both that federal funding had cut their budget and that there was only one person guarding our coast - however, the Feds have no authority over State trooper funding, and the State troopers don't guard our coast, the Coast Guard does, and the Feds raised their funding. Is that enough, or should I look for more?

[Zythryn]

Farenheit 911 did raise a number of question. However, really think back to it and look hard at what 'facts' were put forth and what was supposition.

 

Very little of the film was actual facts, while most of it was Moore leading the audience to an answer, but not outright stating the answer.

 

For the record, I agree that Bush used the events of 911 to give him an excuse to forward his agenda for Iraq (no smoking gun of evidence yet, so this is just opinion based on the lies or carelessness of jumping into a war with Iraq). However, I think Moore's film did more damage than good in it was soooo biased and lacked substance that it delayed the time we actually started getting facts out.

 

Mark

[TheBigDog]

Well, for one, Farenheit 9/11 claimed that one of Bush's oil companies wanted to run a pipeline through Afghanistan, which wasn't true - yes, there were oil companies which wanted to do so, but not one that the Bush family was associated with financially. It made a big deal of recruiting, but failed to explain that the tactics that were shown are not typical, they aren't taught to recruiters, and they don't follow standard procedure. It had an interview with an Oregon(or was it Washington) State Trooper, claiming both that federal funding had cut their budget and that there was only one person guarding our coast - however, the Feds have no authority over State trooper funding, and the State troopers don't guard our coast, the Coast Guard does, and the Feds raised their funding. Is that enough, or should I look for more?

Unfortunatly for you dave I think it is an urban legend about there being a reward. I cannot find a single instance of a quote from Michael Moore on the topic, including a detailed look at his website. There are many hits on Google on the topic but they all trace to other people talking about how they have heard about the reward. All heresay.

 

On his website he has many pages of his "proof" of the claims made in the film. I am too tired to go over all 6 pages of it, but I will at a later time. I have not seen F911, but I will before I discuss it here - on a different thread.

 

Racoon, I would slow down a bit on the lies leading to war. There have been ample discussions of that here at Hypography. If you are wrong about there being a reward for finding factual errors in F911, are you lying to me? Or are you passing on information that you believe to be fact based upon your confidence in the people who gave you the information? If you want to start another thread to go into that, or reopen one of the many dedicated to that question, then lets do that. But I don't want to get this thread muddied up and away from the question - did the US government plan and execute the 911 attacks. That is the question at hand here.

 

Bill

[pgrmdave]

Bush taking more vacation than any other President. and his idiotic remarks caught on tape.

 

Much as I don't like him, he does work on his 'vacations'. And Moore counted time spent at Camp David, which is fully equipped to be a working Presidential office.

 

Bush/ BinLaden family conections.>>but not specifically Osama and allowing them to leave the country when NO flights were allowed

They were not allowed to leave the country before they were checked out, and other flights were allowed - check your facts, this one's a falsehood. As for the connection, I don't really know, but I think that the fact that Moore uses some shady film techniques (in his montage of articles he includes editorials) and his use of outright lies lends enough doubt as to question the validity of much of it.

 

The Enron Connection to Bush? know anything about that?

 

Yes and no. As in, I have heard about some connections, but I don't know what it has to do with 9/11.

[ldsoftwaresteve]

There is certainly a lot of passion triggered by this thread and that proves to me that there's a lot of goodness in the people posting.

It's very hard sometimes to step back from the feelings and understand what is driving the reactions and then speak directly to those causes.

Our form of government is on trial today, like it or not (and I don't!) - And there are people who would tear it down and replace it with something that would be a hell of a lot worse.

But nothing is more important than the truth. And if the end result is that we find that the administration was behind the attacks or was aware of the plans beforehand and did nothing to stop them - for whatever reason - then not only do they deserve punishment, so do we.

The fact that it's conceivable is enough to make us pause and say that something is rotten somewhere and that it needs to be addressed (and this, I think, is Orbcyli's point). That is the golden nugget behind the feelings expressed in this thread. And how we respond to the implication, if we can identify the cause of the doubt - and fix it, that will be an opportunity for gain. I would rather identify the problem and fix it before I have to pray (and I'm not religious) for a phoenix to rise from the ashes of the beauty that we were.

There has been too much corruption of the system and mediocrity has been enshrined.

[C1ay]

Ok So I got negative rep for calling bigdog annoying.

 

Ahem, that's my opinion....

It looks like the Hypography team is cracking down on opinions...

It's also flaming. Opinions are fine, flaming members is not..

[GAHD]

speaking of Bush remarks on tape, could his Ipod be illegal?

[C1ay]

speaking of Bush remarks on tape, could his Ipod be illegal?

I doubt it. The RIAA may claim that ripping CDs is illegal but they've yet to prove that in a court of law. To prove that a copy of a Beatles tune is illegal they would have to prove that it is illegal to tape that song from the radio for personal use and/or that it is illegal to convert that taped copy to a version that will play on an IPod. The RIAA's case is shaky with decades of precedent from the years of tape recorders.