The U.S. Government is Disgusting

[TheBigDog]

what about the pictures taken from the setelite that show the heat coming out of the rubble even after 2 weeks . why did the steel beams melt in the basement of both buildings? i forgot what temp does a steel beam melt(a beam that is supporting the building from the basement!).????????

can we achieve that temp at the basement just by the building falling on it???????

Yes, the temperature in the basement was from the building falling. The kinetic energy released by the 1368' tall towers compressing into the basement was to say the least, extreme. Four story sections were compressed into layers just more than a foot thick. This included all of the structure and contents of those layers. When the support beams gave and began absorbing the fall of the building they superheated. The concrete around them exploded from the heat. The steel softened and distorted and melted. The immense weight of the buildings caused them to collaps at nearly freefall speed. All of the rubble that landed on top insulated the rubble on the bottom like ashes over coals in a fireplace. The combustables in the rubble smoldered at high temperature keeping the heat high and slow. The fire department poured water into the rubble to cool it. There were hoses running 24x7 for months during the cleanup to cool the pile so that people could stand the temperatures.

 

Bill

[TheBigDog]

Here is an excellent Wikipedia article on the Collapse of the world trade center. I highly recommend it to anyone interested in finding facts about this topic, including details of the debates in the scientific world about the pros and cons of the design and the elements that lead to the failures. Things to note are the number of other buildings destroyed that day (the film alludes that only one other was destroyed). And how much above the design specs the impact of the 767's was (7 times greater force than the 707 scenario they were designed for).

 

Bill

[Queso]

http://www.shoutwire.com/viewstory/14090/Rumsfeld_s_Slip_of_the_Tongue_of_What_Happened_to_Flight_93

 

Donald talking about flight 93 getting shot down.

[ldsoftwaresteve]

I disagree with the thread assertion. What I do agree with is any government being disgusting when it lies to those being governed.

Our form of government has been responsible for great good and has elevated mankind light years from where it was prior to our form of government coming into existence. Unfortunately, some, perhaps many in power have taken advantage of that good image and warped and distorted the truth and lied to accomplish their own agenda without regard to the cost in wealth or human lives.

What I would like to see is the penalities for corruption in government be increased 10 fold. I would also like to include lying by government officials as a punishable offense where the penalties follow along the lines of fraudulent behavior for the least offenses and capital punishment if the lies lead to the deaths of innocent persons. And mandatory penalties.

This country was and still is overwhelmed by folks wishing to come here and live. The solution to that problem is in setting an example of honesty and rational governmental activity and to spread that to other countries. Democracy isn't the solution, rational government is. That means justice must apply to those doing the governing as well as to those being governed.

[CraigD]

… And how much above the design specs the impact of the 767's was (7 times greater force than the 707 scenario they were designed for).

Though it reveals my engineering-over-everything perspective on life, I must confess that what struck me the hardest, emotionally, on 9/11/01, was my conviction that the WTC twin towers collapse could have been prevented had it just been possible to extinguish the building fire in time.

 

Nearly every tall steel (and possibly even concrete) building was, is, and, unless current techniques are improved, continues to be vulnerable to fire, not only from extraordinary events like aircraft collisions, but from ordinary causes such as electrical failure or arson. Yet there’s been almost no post-9/11 public discussion of this, and the mere suggestion that better technology and preparation could have greatly reduced the loss of life and property at and around the WTC can provoke wrath.

 

The WTC survived a 1993 terrorist attack intended to collapse it. I can’t help but think the US and the world would be a better place now had it survived the 2001 attack.

[IDMclean]

A fact that I would think self evident is thus:

We have been lied too.

 

We're not exactly sure of the six major questions yet. Only that we have been lied to. This to me is not surprising. Historically Countries, of Empire particularly, lie to their common folk.

 

It is up to the Majority to be informed, for if they are then they weild weapons far more dangerous to those in parasitical complacent power than any terrorist with a gun or a bomb could ever wield. Hence the USA's almost unanimous policy of Anti-intellectualism, Bush has been particularly bad about this.

 

This is a Republic, and as such it only get's as much power as the people allow it to have. Which given the Apathy and Intolerance, is a pretty large ammount of power.

 

I know, deep in my soul, for lack of a better word, that I have been lied to, and that something odd is up. I *know*, instinctually, that our goverment has had some hand in creating the situation that we are currently in. I know, factually, that a large number of suspicious persons in our leadership have allot to gain from the out come of 9/11. I know, factually, that our Intelligence had heard of the plan to hi-jack a plane and run it into the WTC at least a year before it happened, if not more.

 

I *know*, instinctually and factually, that war benefits, in the short term, the countries waging it, and even a few that aren't. Peace is bad for the Military-Industrial complex.

 

I would agree that we have placed ourselves into a nasty, toxic, govermental system, I can read the writting on the wall and I can smell the corpse of a dead thing, that has not realized it is dead yet.

[Queso]

waves

[Barry Scott]

You lot act like America wouldnt destroy two buildings in return for billions of dollars

[Queso]

You lot act like America wouldnt destroy two buildings in return for billions of dollars

 

civilians=expendable

[ldsoftwaresteve]

I saw a thing on TV the other day about numerous surface nuclear tests performed in Australia after the second world war. I didn't catch the whole thing but it was another example of governmental cover ups and lies. The upshot of the thing was that many Aborigines died from radiation poisoning, their land has been poisoned and the troops that performed the tests have been and are now dying of cancer left and right. The governments of both Australia and Britain deny any wrongdoing and the medical records of the thousands of troops affected have been lost.

The disgusting thing about this is the idea that a government looks upon the governed as though they were 'resources' to be disposed of as they wish. Obviously they are aware of the evil that was commited. But once again, nobody is held responsible.

We are not resources for anyone's agenda except our own. Nobody owns me except me. And the government should not 'own' property. Only we can own property. Does anyone else see the connection between that and poisoned lands in Australia? The government is not our master.

Am I alone here in thinking this?

[Barry Scott]

Its not just the U.S government thats disgusting, (even though it is one of the most corrupt) all governents are concerned more about money than the people they 'govern'

[Barry Scott]

I agree with you ldsoftwaresteve

[CraigD]

I saw a thing on TV the other day about numerous surface nuclear tests performed in Australia after the second world war. I didn't catch the whole thing but it was another example of governmental cover ups and lies. The upshot of the thing was that many Aborigines died from radiation poisoning, their land has been poisoned and the troops that performed the tests have been and are now dying of cancer left and right….

Examples of likely increases in cancer risks due to nuclear weapon tests can be found in less remote places than Austrailian Aboriginal lands – above ground nuclear explosions at the Nevada Proving Grounds were actually something of a tourist attraction – the scheduled time of these test was announced, and visitors and residents of nearby (about 100 km) Las Vegas would make an event of watching the resulting mushroom cloud. 100 such above ground test were conducted between 1951 and 1962, before being prohibited by the ”Partial Test Ban Treaty” took effect in 1963. Although, to my knowledge, no well-controlled study linking disease, particularly thyroid cancer, with nearness to these test, is well known in the medical literature, it’s almost universally believed that a significant increase did occur, though how much continues to be a source of public and legal controversy.

 

Reading or hearing about tourists flocking to watch mushroom clouds, a person living today might ask themselves if these people were crazy! I don’t think so – rather, I think present alarm at the dangers posed by radioactivity of various sources is greater among the publics of most nations now than in the 1950s. Although one possible explanation for this difference is heightened awareness of the dangers of radiation, due to decades of fictional and non-fictional descriptions of these dangers, I think the main reason for the difference is the lack of a war approaching the loss of life of World War II.

 

WWII lasted slightly more than 8 years (1937-1945), and directly caused about 62,000,000 deaths. This is a staggering number, about 2.5% of the then world population. Unlike WWI 15,000,000 deaths (0.8% of world population), more than half of the deaths were of non-combatants. No war before or since has approached the loss of life caused by WWII.

 

To people who had reason to worry that they, personally, might die in a massive, nuclear “WW3”, increased risk of cancer was likely a lesser concern. If such an attitude was present in the general population, it was present among government and military leaders. Their willingness to endanger soldiers and civilian populations was, I believe, not so much an indication that they considered these people their property, as a belief that such testing was reducing the chance of such a war – the doctrine of Mutual Assured Destruction.

 

Assessing the ultimate correctness of the MAD doctrine, and its cost in economic and human terms, is difficult and controversial. More important now, I believe, are continued effort by individuals, organizations, governments and diplomatic bodies to reduce nuclear arsenals to the point that they are no longer such a threat that they shape public policy.

[Barry Scott]

Orbsycli is right.. Civilians are expendable. The sooner you realise they care more about money than people the better.

[Queso]

Yeah, I may be right

 

but what the F*** am I supposed to do about it?

 

All I can forsee is the quest for dog

 

minimalize until all i've got is a backpack.

 

So I can just walk away.

 

meloncholy

every day

no food

no food

concrete infection

 

 

All I can hope for in the morning is to learn more,

poor city boy

no one ever taught him how to live

 

my instincs, they're corrupt

fragmented, like my dreams

drenched with toxins

 

I feel like I'm suffering.

Don't even bother telling me to write my senetor! Or the governer! or anybody else who doesn't give a ****.

 

everywhere I go is madness.

 

I've been constantly moving around this country

 

with hope

 

and everybody projects themselves into their clean automobiles

and their clean houses

and their clean clothes

and their clean teeth

 

it's the other way around

 

I KNOW IT

 

Overpopulation, the evolution of Love

obligated to bark it over your cell phone

back and forth

every night

 

wake up and think you're still on the phone

 

And the basis of this thread!

 

An operation against civvilians,

worse than saddam.

 

tear down the WTC's,

they look ugly,

 

we need more patriotism!

 

we are the best!

 

yeah!!!!

 

no.

 

noNOONNONONNO

NO

 

NO

 

 

 

 

NO

 

 

I am oh so thoroughly disgusted

 

am I the only one?

 

I don't know anyone as menaced as I am

 

I wish I did.

[IDMclean]

Time is money, People make time. People make money.

 

Money is equal to time.

[math]Money^2[/math]

 

Money is the root of all evil.

[math]Evil = \sqrt{Money^2}[/math]

 

The key to removing money, is to remove evil.

 

We are everything and everything is us. There is only limited resources within a closed system, we exist in an open system, with far more resources than we will ever need.

 

Money is the concept of limited resources. The panic that there won't be enough to sustain me, or you. Limited resources is related to gorwth panic, the belief that the land we live on is limited, and shrinking. We shrink it, we can grow it as well.

 

We can move off planet, or we can make more efficent use of the land we occupy already. If you draw a circle and then draw a line through that circle you end up with two different areas. That line doesn't exist, and yet our planet is devived by these imaginary lines, these attachments to impermanent concepts such as nation, creed, race, age, sex, etc. That I define my resourc es as limited make it so, to me. That I admit that the resources available to me are undefined, makes it so. Something that is undefined is either non-existant (zero, and clearly not the case), or infinite (more likely the case).

 

This land is my land, this land is your land. This man is land's man, this man is other land's man.

 

That we create our suffering (time, money, evil) is our choice. when we choose not to create these things, they vanish as the illusions they are.

 

Not all accept this, and some outright reject it. Holding stead fast to their pains, and fears. If they only would let go, they could end their suffering and aid in the education of others who suffer.

 

I am a man, but I can change. If I have to. I guess.

[Southtown]

So exactly what's the problem? It's difficult to sift through all the emotional rubbish. Were there any laws that were broken? Perhaps some law that should exist but doesn't, or vice versa? All I can seem to glean from the conversation is that there should be an unspoken agreement among all who draw breath concerning right from wrong, and those who transgress should burn in hell. Are we becoming religious? In that respect I would agree: greed infects us all from the world's leaders to Orbsycli's neighbors and it will eventually destroy us. What irritates me are the scientists who say that the 'survival of the fittest' is capable of producing that which it is obviously destroying.

 

But happy are they who believe in the promise of a new earth.