The Bible and it's religion.

[Skippy]

Oh really? where did you read this? I have never heard this ever happening in history.

Example Number One:

WACO, Texas—Two Baylor University graduates detained in Afghanistan must rely on Americans to be their advocates through prayer, now that all U.S. personnel have left the country, their pastor said in a news conference Tuesday.

 

Dayna Curry, 29, and Heather Mercer, 24, both members of Antioch Community Church, were arrested by Afghanistan's ruling Taliban government on Aug. 3 along with six other international aid workers and at least 16 Afghan nationals. All of the workers are associated with the German-based aid organization Shelter Now International.

 

The eight detainees are currently being tried by the Taliban's supreme court on charges that they were preaching Christianity. - Utah Chronicle - Published: Thursday, September 20, 2001

[Skippy]

Oh really? where did you read this? I have never heard this ever happening in history.

Example number two:

Sura 5, Ayat 32 says: "... whoever kills a soul, not in retaliation for a soul or corruption in the land, is like one who has killed the whole of mankind; and whoever saves a life is like one who saves the lives of all mankind. Our messengers came to them with the clear proof; but afterwards many of them continued to commit excesses in the land."

So, far from killing never being allowed, it is permitted under the law of "an eye for an eye" in the case of murder, or in the case of "corruption in the land." Lest it be thought that this may only be a matter of concern for New Labour Paymaster Generals, the very next ayat (verse) continues: "Indeed, the punishment of those who fight Allah and His Messenger and go around corrupting the land is to be killed, crucified, have their hands and feet cut off on opposite sides, or to be banished from the land. That is a disgrace for them in this life, and in the life to come theirs will be a terrible punishment."

 

And lest you think that they are worried about "collateral damage" here's Allah's view of collateral damage, from Sura 27: "48: And there were in the city nine individuals, who worked corruption in the land and did not set things right.... 50. They schemed a scheme and We schemed a scheme, while they were unaware. 51. See then what was the outcome of their scheming: We destroyed them together with all their people. 52. Their houses are in ruin, on account of their wrongdoing. There is a sign for a people who know. 53. And we delivered those who believed and were God-fearing."

[Skippy]

Oh really? where did you read this? I have never heard this ever happening in history....If Muslims meet someone who doesnt agree with the Quran, they wouldnt kill them they would let them live and let them practice whatever they want, and I am not basing this off current societies.

Example number three:

"Fight those among the People of the Book [i.e. Jews and Christians] ... who do not profess the true religion, until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Sura 9.29)

Those who resist Allah and His Messenger will be crumbled to dust, as were those before them. For we have already sent down clear revelations and the unbelievers will have a humiliating penalty. (Sura 58.5)

 

You have had a good example in Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people: "We are quit of you and what you worship apart from Allah. We disbelieve in you. Enmity and hatred have arisen between you and us forever, till you believe in Allah alone." (Sura 60.4)

 

"Then their Lord revealed to them: "We shall destroy the wrongdoers (who refused to accept Allah). And We will make you dwell in the land after them." (Sura 14.13-14)

 

"If the hypocrites, those in whose hearts is a sickness and those who spread lies in the city, do not desist, We will certainly urge you against them and then they will not dwell with you therein as neighbors but for a short time." (Sura 33.60)

 

"It is He Who drove out the unbelievers among the People of the Book (Jews, Christians) from their homes at the first mustering." (59.2)

[Skippy]

I have studied many religions, the main ones I have studied was Christianity and Islam (because it's the fastest growing religion)

Then you MUST have read these:

"Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that you hate a thing which is good for you and it may happen that you love a thing which is bad for you." (2.216)

 

"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people. They [i.e. non-Muslims] will not fail to corrupt you. They long for your ruin. Hatred has already shown itself out of their mouths, but more grievous is what their breasts conceal." (3.118)

 

"Allah revealed His will to the angels, saying: "I shall be with you. Give courage to the believers. I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers!" That was because they defied Allah and His apostle. He that defies Allah and his apostle shall be sternly punished by Allah." (8.12-13)

 

"Lo, the worst of beasts in Allah's sight are the ungrateful who will not believe." (8.55)

 

"Muster against them [i.e. non-Muslims] all the men and cavalry at your command, so that you may strike terror into the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others besides them who are unknown to you but known to Allah. All that you give in the cause of Allah shall be repaid to you. You shall not be wronged." (8.60)

 

"Mohammed is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." (48.29)

[Skippy]

Oh really? where did you read this? I have never heard this ever happening in history. What I hear is people not agreeing with Quran, and then trying to stop Muslims from believing in the Quran by "Liberating them," then out in defence Muslims do Jihad (struggle) against the enemy.

So it is your opinion that the Chrisitan genocide in The Sudan is in retaliation for some attack from the south? Ludicrous.

[adnaan]

First I will start off by saying no i havent read "voice of marders."

 

Now Skippy your first post at 1:05pm, on Christians preaching Christianity. It wasn't "preaching" it was more of enforcing.

 

For your second post at 1:35pm, Surah 5, Ayat 32 is...

32. Then Allah sent a raven, who scratched the ground, to show him how to hide the shame of his brother. "Woe is me!" said he; "Was I not even able to be as this raven, and to hide the shame of my brother?" then he became full of regrets-

 

you gave a wrong verse... so pretty much i dont know what your trying to say... do some research..

 

I dont know where you get your verses but they arent translated very good.. again for

 

Surah 27, Ayat 48...

48. There were in the city nine men of a family, who made mischief in the land, and would not reform.

 

Surah 27, Ayat 51...

51. Then see what was the end of their plot!- this, that We destroyed them and their people, all (of them).

 

Surah 27, Ayat 52-53...

52. Now such were their houses, - in utter ruin, - because they practised wrong- doing. Verily in this is a Sign for people of knowledge.

53. And We saved those who believed and practised righteousness.

 

I dont know what your trying to prove... I am in confusion... :shrug:

 

For your 2:17pm post, now I see something first you should understand the word "fight," It doesnt mean kill as your trying to show. There is many ways in fighting, an example is arguing. Havent you ever been to debates? Having a Muslim in a debate is also considered Jihad.

By Islamic Rules, Muslims are supposed to be trustworthy thats why it says to make friends with other muslims, because you never know for non-muslims. I am not saying all muslims are trustable.

For Surah 8:12-3, whats wrong with that, Its meant to give people fear to not do harm or by disbelieving, it sets them straight, therefore trustworthy.

 

The translation for Surah 48:29 is not translated correctly...

29. Muhammad is the apostle of Allah. and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other.

 

That genocide, well it was exaggerated

 

http://aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/conspiracy_theory/fullstory.asp?id=245

[IrishEyes]

For your second post at 1:35pm, Surah 5, Ayat 32 is...

32. Then Allah sent a raven, who scratched the ground, to show him how to hide the shame of his brother. "Woe is me!" said he; "Was I not even able to be as this raven, and to hide the shame of my brother?" then he became full of regrets-

you gave a wrong verse... so pretty much i dont know what your trying to say... do some research..

Well, I don't know where either of you get your verses, but I got mine from here... Online Koran

And that verse says...

[5.32] For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our apostles came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.

It looks like you miffed your first retaliation, adnaan.

I dont know where you get your verses but they arent translated very good.. again for

Surah 27, Ayat 48...

48. There were in the city nine men of a family, who made mischief in the land, and would not reform.

Surah 27, Ayat 51...

51. Then see what was the end of their plot!- this, that We destroyed them and their people, all (of them).

Surah 27, Ayat 52-53...

52. Now such were their houses, - in utter ruin, - because they practised wrong- doing. Verily in this is a Sign for people of knowledge.

53. And We saved those who believed and practised righteousness.

Again, from the online source I gave above, niether of you quoted them correctly.

I dont know what your trying to prove... I am in confusion... :shrug:

I think he was trying to show that the followers of the Koran are willing to kill the people, and their familes that do not follow its tenets.

 

For your 2:17pm post, now I see something first you should understand the word "fight," It doesnt mean kill as your trying to show. There is many ways in fighting, an example is arguing. Havent you ever been to debates? Having a Muslim in a debate is also considered Jihad.

By Islamic Rules, Muslims are supposed to be trustworthy thats why it says to make friends with other muslims, because you never know for non-muslims. I am not saying all muslims are trustable.

For Surah 8:12-3, whats wrong with that, Its meant to give people fear to not do harm or by disbelieving, it sets them straight, therefore trustworthy.

[8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

[8.13] This is because they acted adversely to Allah and His Apostle; and whoever acts adversely to Allah and His Apostle-- then surely Allah is severe in requiting (evil).

Yikes!

The translation for Surah 48:29 is not translated correctly...

29. Muhammad is the apostle of Allah. and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other..

According to which translation? Which is correct?

[48.29] Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah, and those with him are firm of heart against the unbelievers, compassionate among themselves; you will see them bowing down, prostrating themselves, seeking grace from Allah and pleasure; their marks are in their faces because of the effect of prostration; that is their description in the Taurat and their description in the Injeel; like as seed-produce that puts forth its sprout, then strengthens it, so it becomes stout and stands firmly on its stem, delighting the sowers that He may enrage the unbelievers on account of them; Allah has promised those among them who believe and do good, forgiveness and a great reward.

That genocide, well it was exaggerated

 

http://aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/conspiracy_theory/fullstory.asp?id=245

 

from the Al Jazeera link above.

Last year the Bush administration aligned its position last year with that of the U.S. Congress, which had urged President Bush in a vote in July to call the mass killings in the western region of Sudan 'by their rightful name: genocide'.

At the time, nearly more than one million Sudanese had been forced from their homes by groups alleged to be allied to the Khartoum government, and some 60,000 people had been killed.

Though the UN had described Darfur as 'the worst humanitarian disaster in the world' it stopped short of calling it genocide.

Yeah, you're right. The use of the word "genocide" really sounds exaggerated to me - a million people forced from their homes, 60,000 dead, "worst humanitarian disaster in the world"...

But if not genocide, then what exactly do we call it?

from webster online

Main Entry: geno·cide

Pronunciation: 'je-n&-"sId

Function: noun

: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group

[bumab]

It seems like there are some who interpret the bible in good ways...

 

But what is a good way? I sympathize with the literalists, although I most certainly am not one. It's much easier (but not simpler) to just believe the KJV in English is exactly perfect.

 

.....and yet there are always so many who use it for whatever convenience they can twist out of it. Literal when it suits them to be literal; not literal when they don't agree with it, but somehow, it's a perfect book, and to question anything in it means you are attacking it.

 

True. Questioning is encouraged in the Bible- even Jesus questioned the will of God at times. I'll never understand why some think it's a sin to admit not understanding, and attempt to find some.

 

Not many can seem to find a balance - a few here, bumab, Bio, Irish, infamous - who are believers but still have brains, can use logic to say why they believe as they do and respect the beliefs of others.

 

Thanks! :shrug: That made my night. I think that respect is important for one MAJOR reason. As soon as a person claims exclusivity on their interpritation of the Bible, they automatically must assume all others have a incorrect view. Prideful thinking results. If the Bible is completely true, it can be true without being literally true. There are truths in there that only a humble reading will discover. Besides that, if it is the word of God, wouldn't you WANT to aproach it with a bit of humility? If man "cannot understand the mind of God" why assume his word would be much simpler?

 

Those of us (myself, that is) who aren't opposed to Christianity (and might even accept it some day, at least, as I perceive it to be right and not as anyone else will define it) are turned off by the absolutists.

 

Perhaps you didn't mean absolutists in the traditional sense. From the tone of the post, it seems you are referring to Biblical "my way or the highway" folk. Jesus didn't like them either- the Pharasees. Those who saw the rules and laws as the most important facet of the religion were missing the point, and causing a lot of harm in the meantime. So I'm with you here. Please correct me if I'm wrong! :wave:

 

Good for those who have found their religion and believe; but religious absolutists don't belong here, in my humble opinion.

 

Well, I partially agree- but if you aren't talking to them, who would be? They need some help like everybody else! :)

 

Thanks for the great post, N!

[bumab]

And as for all the posts with specific quotes from the Koran, I'd be careful- especially you Christian believers! Taking quotations out of context, or even semi-out of context, is something that people do to attack Christianity all the time. You can find all sorts of quotes, taken out of context, that make Christianity look like the next Heaven's Gate cult. Just ask Uncle Al for his link to the Biblical quotation sites.

[IrishEyes]

And as for all the posts with specific quotes from the Koran, I'd be careful- especially you Christian believers! Taking quotations out of context, or even semi-out of context, is something that people do to attack Christianity all the time. You can find all sorts of quotes, taken out of context, that make Christianity look like the next Heaven's Gate cult. Just ask Uncle Al for his link to the Biblical quotation sites.

In total agreement with you on this one.

I've read, and thouroughly enjoyed, UAs links off of his site. What a hoot!

Actually, my point was the same as something I mentioned earlier: you have to be very specific when using a source. You can't just say "The Koran", any more than you can say "the Bible". You really need to say where your version is from, and maybe even where you get your specific interpretation for your translation. I know that different people that use the Bible can take the same verse from the same translation/version, but get something very different from it.

I did think it was rather odd that all three versions were so different. But then again, it shouldn't have surprised me at all, should it? It's a religious text, and it's been translated from one language to many others. It's bound to read different with each translation, right? But the original meaning should still remain, right?

[bumab]

I know that different people that use the Bible can take the same verse from the same translation/version, but get something very different from it.

 

True, true. To me, that shows the amazing versatility of the word. No wonder it still applies- it's got that ability to make sense to different people in different times..

 

I did think it was rather odd that all three versions were so different. But then again, it shouldn't have surprised me at all, should it? It's a religious text, and it's been translated from one language to many others. It's bound to read different with each translation, right? But the original meaning should still remain, right?

 

The origional meaning may or may not remain. If the origional meaning used idiomatic language, particular to the culture, it certainly wouldn't. It just would not contain the same meaning to people outside the culture, because they just wouldn't get it. I think this is addressed by the multiple Bible verses (not sure about the Koran) that mention the Bible as the living Word. It has to take on different forms to different people, at least in the peripheral stuff. The central values- man's fall from grace (however it happened, or symbolized in whatever manner), God's plan for redemption, the death and resurrection, and eventual communion with God- are always present.

 

The other things, like Kosher eating rules, show a respect for hygene, a concern for what you eat, deference to God's plans, etc. They can still teach us stuff, even if their literal time is past. Now, we interpret them in symbolic fashion more then literally, you should and should not eat this. Like I've said a million times- things can be true and not literally true at the same time.

[majordinkydau]

Man has an amazing tendancy towords delusion and loves to approch the bible like it is a scavenger hunt. If you like poetry, try reading Psalm 119 out loud several times. Its the longest chapter in the bible, 178 verses, an acrosic poem. I think it explaines the whole book fairly well. Jesus said "unless you become as a little child you will not enter the kingdom" I don't think anybody can know God from someone else's revelation, it requires personal knowledge. Jesus also spoke of many being turned away who thought they were serving him, "depart I never knew you"

I try to read the bible and apply it to myself, I'm the one who is stiff necked and rebellious. I am in major need of salvation myself and will not spend my time trying to "fix" other people.

"If your neighbors eye offends you get a claw hammer and pluck it out" A dyslexic interpretation of scripture often followed by fundamentalists.

Read any book in the world and it might change your opinions, read the bible and it will change your heart.

[adnaan]

Well, for those Quranic translations, I use this website. My Arabic friends says this website is the best translated verses (ayats). So i generally trust it. I hate english translations, because you know when you know it in the Arabic tense you would understand it, but when sometimes translating, somethings that sound understanding to people to speak Arabic, sounds weird in English. An example of what I am saying is, you know when you say something in another language like a joke, its really funny, but if translated in English it doesnt sound funny at all.

 

Here is the website, It is the so far best translated website I've been to.

 

http://web.umr.edu/~msaumr/Quran/

 

I have websites on Online Bibles, but I dont know if its good, if anyone would like to, could you possibly post your favourite online Bible website. thnx :shrug:

[IrishEyes]

Well, for those Quranic translations, I use this website. My Arabic friends says this website is the best translated verses (ayats). So i generally trust it. I hate english translations, because you know when you know it in the Arabic tense you would understand it, but when sometimes translating, somethings that sound understanding to people to speak Arabic, sounds weird in English. An example of what I am saying is, you know when you say something in another language like a joke, its really funny, but if translated in English it doesnt sound funny at all.

This brings up an interesting question:

Where are you from? You sound like you don't like the English versions, and would prefer to read it in your native language. I'm only asking because I can't understand Arabic, so I use the copy that is most easily understandable, but I'd like to refer to a copy of the Koran that is most correctly translated. Thanks for your suggestion. The friends that suggested this one know both Arabic and English and are saying that this one is the most correct translation?

[adnaan]

My background is Indian, and I am learning Arabic.

 

That website for Quranic translations is basically a virtual version of a book which is well-known and used by many muslims as references. Also some scholars take this website, and put it on their website. So pretty much it is well trusted by many muslims.

 

Now can someone give me a "good" link to a online Bible?

[eMTee]

I encurage you to read the Bible itself...sence I am not a web surfer I would not know any good Bible sites, I could ask though.

[Boerseun]

Google online bible: 10,700,000 hits.

 

The most obvious one is http://www.bible.com