The Bible and it's religion.

[IrishEyes]

I did that, do0d. I said, "all of it." Go check. I'll wait.

 

And how am I judging you, exactly?

Actually, I have read the entire Bible through, twice on my own and once for a grade in a college course towards a Bachelor's degree in Religious Studies. I've already done my homework, kid. That's why I am fairly certain that there is nothing in it that tells anyone how to truly tell if another person is a Christian or not. People can not see into another's heart. You said yo urself that people lie. Well, do you think some lie about being Christians? Or that maybe a few of them think that what they are doing (works) is good enough to get them into Heaven? How many people in your church would you guess are actually saved? And how many people that never attend any church on a regular basis are saved? You have no real way of knowing. As for judging - Do you truly think of me as one of the 'science types'? Can you really tell from reading just a few posts here what I think, feel, or believe concerning God? (Are you reading this, T? Cuz if you are, I know you are laughing hysterically right now!! :xx: )

 

eMTee, thanks for the verses, those were much more applicable to the point. However, they only show what the Bible says about salvation. They don't tell me how to tell if anyone else is saved. Knowing human nature, knowing that people can lie, or misunderstand, or be full of pride, can I, or you, or any other person, really feel comfortable looking at any other person and deciding categorically if they are or are not a Christian? I really don't think so. Do you?

[Tormod]

(Are you reading this, T? Cuz if you are, I know you are laughing hysterically right now!! :xx: )

 

Oh yeah. :)

[IrishEyes]

Oh yeah. :)

Why, oh why, does that not surprise me in the least, oh Fearless Leader??? :xx:

 

btw - thanks for this forum. I almost feel as if you created it 'just for me'. :)

[Biochemist]

Goodness, Gang. This thread has gotten a little combative, although the quality of the content has risen in the last 20 posts or so. And it is good to have you back in the fray, IrishEyes.

 

It seems like we are on at least three topics:

 

1) What is a Christian?

 

2) How can you tell if someone is a Christian?

 

3) How accurate is the Bible (in terms of its translations from original manuscripts)?

 

On point number 1) above:

 

The Bible is extraordinarily vague on the minimum standards for a Christian. I don't think God ever meant to identify exactly how little someone could do to be minimally saved. The intent of the writers was to provide a path to spiritual depth and intimacy with the Father. Ergo establishment of a minimum standard was not really an important consideration.

 

A passage like Romans 10: 9-10 is an interesting example ("that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart God raised him from the dead, you shall be saved..."). I don't know anyone that interprets this to mean that people who are mute cannot go to heaven, although that could be one "plain sense" view of it. This verse probably means that an individual has to have both internal self recognition of the valididty of Jesus' resurrection and an outward witness as well. Moreover, this verse does more to identify who is Christian than who is not.

 

Further, most folks believe that key people in the old testament (e.g., Abraham, Moses, David, Daniel, Isaiah, etc.) were "saved" as well, even though they could not have believed in the resurrection per se. This is a long and somewhat complex discussion. But the point is that God does not try to identify the minimum standard for performance. He directs people toward the highest standard for performance.

 

I think the most generic reference to describe the working of God in drawing His people to Himself is Hebrews 11:6b- "for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and is the rewarder of those who seek Him." This description of the spiritual-connection process is focused on the inner motivation of the individual, and is not related specifically to any specific belief or understanding. It is also pretty concrete. People have to believe: a) God exists, and :xx: God rewards those who seek Him. It also imples that folks actually did some "seeking" to find God. This model would include folks like Abraham (specifically mentioned in Hebrews 11) and also would include a laundry list of others that seem to have mixed incentives and values.

 

On question 2:

 

I don't think it is my job to figure out who is Christian. I suspect it is probably not feasible. It is my job to steer folks toward God irrespective of their status at the moment. We are not requested to identify whether our peers are saved, and to make assessments therein. We are encouraged to "'admonish the unruly, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, and be patient with all men" (I Thess 5:14) among hundreds of other examples.

 

On question 3:

 

For an ancient text, the Bible is remarkably well preserved by any objective measure. The specifics supporting the reliabity and continuity of the old testament (e.g., the dead sea scrools and the masoretic texts) are different than the specifics of the new testament. We have none of the original manuscripts or codexes. But the evidence of reliable handling and transcription over the thousands of years is high, certainly higher than any other ancient manuscript or set of manuscripts.

 

But to suggest that the Bible is always straightforward is a bit of a stretch. If the Bible is a reflection of the Creator (as it reports itself to be) we should rightfully expect that some of the complexity of the Creator shows up in the document. That certainly has been my experience. There are sections that I just do not understand.

 

However, I have a lot more difficulty with the parts that I DO understand than the parts that I don't.

[IrishEyes]

Goodness, Gang. This thread has gotten a little combative, although the quality of the content has risen in the last 20 posts or so. And it is good to have you back in the fray, IrishEyes.[/Quote]

Thanks. It feels pretty good to be back. Last 20? Is that when I started? Not trying to be combative, but am coming to understand the frustrations of our atheist friends when dealing with Christians. Also, still a bit sympathetic to their cause, trying to spread the Word and all. Just starting to think that the best way to do so is by learning the ways of the world a bit, fighting fire with fire, if you will. If you're going into battle, you need to be fully and properly armed, right?

 

It seems like we are on at least three topics:

1) What is a Christian?

2) How can you tell if someone is a Christian?

3) How accurate is the Bible (in terms of its translations from original manuscripts)?

Didn't mean to stray into three topics. That's why I re-posted the original post twice. But going back through this, I can see where things have splintered a bit.

 

You make some very good points about all three things though. I'm hoping that my point was clear that it's really not for me to decide which church or group of people is actually following the Bible, as the original post asked. I think it's very misguided for us to think that we can say "Oh, they go to Mass on Saturdays, but the NT says that Sunday is our day of worship, so they aren't Christians"; "They take/don't take Communion, so they aren't Christians"; "They are in the Army and kill people, so they can't be following the Bible"; etc.

 

But I think you are right on target with:

However, I have a lot more difficulty with the parts that I DO understand than the parts that I don't.

 

That seems to be the hard part for me as well.

Love my neighbor? Geez, some days I have a hard time loving my husband!

Forgive as God does? Are you serious!?! I can still remember Julie Merchiledes that tried to steal my boyfriend in 7th grade!

Thou shall not covet? WHAT!?! Now I'm in BIG trouble! I need to turn off my television for that one.

And just when I think I'm doing pretty good, that I'm getting smarter... "be not wise in thine own eyes, fear the Lord and depart from evil". Well Jinkies, Shaggy, what's a girl to do now?

Oh yeah - Pray!!

[eMTee]

I notice that you can come up with a lot of "evidence" going against the Bible.

 

Can you do the same with peoples testimonies?

[Erasmus00]

I notice that you can come up with a lot of "evidence" going against the Bible.

 

Can you do the same with peoples testimonies?

 

I don't know what exactly you are referring to, nor do I know who this was directed toward. All I presented were a handful of facts, and I don't know exactly what you mean by "evidence."

 

I will say this about people's testimonies: there are devout muslims, Jews, hebrews, hindus, buddhists, etc, all of whom say they have personal experience of their diety. As such, personal testimony cannot be said to support any one religion.

-Will

[IrishEyes]

Yeah, I'd also like to know to whom you were speaking, eMTee.

You will likely always find people that do not believe anything in the Bible, that think it's just a book, that think it's full of lies, or worse- full of fairy tales. There are people who spend their adult lives trying to disprove parts or all of the Bible. And to them I say - Bravo!

As long as there are people that don't believe, then you still have work to do. But it also usually means that the Bible is a threat to them, or their way of life. A lot of other religions won't bother trying to disprove the Bible, they'd rather spend their time recruiting new people. Mainly, you'll find it being challenged by people that are either afraid of what it contains, or people that have had very bad experiences with some type of Christian church. There are others, of course, but it seems that the people who mainly try to attack the Bible have had some rough times with Christians. At least that has been my experience so far. It is by no means to say that those are the only people that attack it.

For the record, I'd like to thank you, eMTee, for taking my constructive criticism in the spirit in which is was intended. I am not trying to attack you, or your faith. I am, however, hoping that you will try to be very prepared when you present your ideas of faith to a group of prefessed atheists and skeptics. If you are not aware of the resistance, then you will have a very difficult time. Trust me on that, I learned here, the hard way. :xx:

[eMTee]

Yeah, I'd also like to know to whom you were speaking, eMTee.

You will likely always find people that do not believe anything in the Bible, that think it's just a book, that think it's full of lies, or worse- full of fairy tales. There are people who spend their adult lives trying to disprove parts or all of the Bible. And to them I say - Bravo!

As long as there are people that don't believe, then you still have work to do. But it also usually means that the Bible is a threat to them, or their way of life. A lot of other religions won't bother trying to disprove the Bible, they'd rather spend their time recruiting new people. Mainly, you'll find it being challenged by people that are either afraid of what it contains, or people that have had very bad experiences with some type of Christian church. There are others, of course, but it seems that the people who mainly try to attack the Bible have had some rough times with Christians. At least that has been my experience so far. It is by no means to say that those are the only people that attack it.

For the record, I'd like to thank you, eMTee, for taking my constructive criticism in the spirit in which is was intended. I am not trying to attack you, or your faith. I am, however, hoping that you will try to be very prepared when you present your ideas of faith to a group of prefessed atheists and skeptics. If you are not aware of the resistance, then you will have a very difficult time. Trust me on that, I learned here, the hard way. :xx:

Thank you for your encuraging word, I do think this "debating" is rather usefull..I hope to do a better job of representing my faith in the future.

By the way, if it is ok what do you believe? not in the historical side of things in the Bible, but in the religion it teaches

[IrishEyes]

Thank you for your encuraging word, I do think this "debating" is rather usefull..I hope to do a better job of representing my faith in the future.

By the way, if it is ok what do you believe? not in the historical side of things in the Bible, but in the religion it teaches

I've been right where you are, here in these forums, in fact. You learn to pick your battles. And you learn who is going to question everything, and who will never believe anything you say. You also learn how better to form your arguments and discussions, and how to avoid (some of the time) looking like some crazed Bible-thumping fanatic.

I was raised in an SBC church, but was allowed to go to many other churches as a kid. For a while I wanted to become Jewish, Catholic, and Buddhist. I never did any of those though. When I went to college the first time (before my 10 years in the Navy), I gave up religion and became an atheist. I thought religion was a joke, and hated everything about it, especially Christianity. I used to pick fights with Christians all the time, and delighted in sending them wimpering off to lick their wounds. It was sport. Then I had kids, and things changed. To say that the heavens opened and I heard angels singing when I first laid eyes on my daughter is not an understatement. But my road back to Christianity was not a fast one.

Now, I'm almost finished with college (again), this time getting that degree in Religious Studies that I mentioned. I go to an Independant Fundamental Baptist church in rural Virginia. Our Preacher talks about sin and hell quite often. He is also very big on the Bible being the inspired Word of God, and it being inerrant. I have many struggles with what is preached, and there have been times when I questioned my faith, and my belief in God. I don't think admitting that makes me any less of a Christian though. I think that it's the people that say they never question, that never have doubts, that are really fooling themselves.

Here, at Hypography, I have found many people from differing lifestyles, and many that have no use for religion. I listen to their reasons, and look at their proofs, and still I manage to keep my faith.

I'm not a perfect Christain, if there is such a creature. I yell at me kids. I fight with my husband. I drink beer sometimes. I even smoke cigarettes at times. I don't always live my life the way that I think God would want me to live it. However, part of accepting his Grace includes knowing that he accepts me no matter what I do. To take a line from "Casting Crowns" - it's not who I am, it's what He did. It's not what I do, it's who He is. I try to live that, remembering that there are better and worse people than me, some are Christians, some are not. But that doesn't give me any excuses to live any less than how I am supposed to live.

Sorry to be so long-winded, I really can't stand posts that end up as pages, but you asked, so I thought I should be as honest as possible. Hope it helps!

[niviene]

Irish, this is such a wonderful post. Thanks for sharing your personal beliefs. It is nice to hear that a believer still has a mind and deals with reality... knowing that you question things while maintaining your faith, and some history behind your choices is a great help for me in my own quest, even if I may vary slightly in what I'm looking for. I have chosen to take a course in religions over this summer quarter (not a part of what I am studying, but for myself) and even though I've really only just begun (cue the Carpenters...) I'm fascinated with everything I'm learning. I envy your degree in Religion (there I go, coveting) and what you must have studied. You are really inspiring - not only just this post, but how you react to others in this forum has given me a lot of insight.

 

I also feel the same about BioChemist (most of the time.. :xx:), but it's easier for me to relate to the view of a woman.

[Biochemist]

...I also feel the same about BioChemist (most of the time.. :xx:), but it's easier for me to relate to the view of a woman.

I am honored.

[Tormod]

Geez, I finally get what pissed off Freethinker so much, and how most atheists can get so frustrated with Christians.

 

Sheesh. I am writing this down and pinning it to my wall. Finally, finally... :xx:

[Southtown]

I just don't get it. Why can't I voice my opinions on churches in this thread, again? What's wrong with throwing around ideas? Am I being accused of being obstinate? I'm here to discuss things and gain new perspectives for purposes of changing my opinion for the better. I'm not of the view that religion can be validated or argued scientifically, and you have mistaken me for someone who cares what the skeptics will think of me or Christianity for discussing things publicly. I have nothing to hide.

 

Irish, you claim to be Christian, that's cool. Whatever. You discredit the bible as an authority, so what is it that makes you Christian, in your opinion? I'm sorry for misunderstanding you, but I don't appreciate being scolded like a child for sharing my views. If people take my words as irrefutable truth, that's their problem. 'Tis the essence of traditionalism, and the beginning of denominationalism.

 

If you'd read my rather lengthy posts, you'd know my disdain for denominational wars and the callous disregard of non-believers. You'd also know I think God views people who search honestly for the truth as more pure than those with a wealth of accumulated knowlegde. A pure heart is better than a full mind. I too believe that no one knows a person's state of salvation but God, but I wasn't talking about people nor salvation. I was under the impression the topic was denominations, whether or not teachings were inline with scripture. I see your point about subjective interpretations, though, I will shut up now. Please forgive my frustrated rantings.

[bumab]

Not to take up Irish's discussion, she's always brilliant! :)

 

Why can't I voice my opinions on churches in this thread, again? What's wrong with throwing around ideas?

 

Nothing. It's wrong to expect others to bow over and accept whatever you say. Welcome to the real world, where you must defend your ideas. Learn to see critism as instructive, you are now surrounded with many smart people. There's a monumental difference between posting your ideas as ideas and posting them as fact. The first is humility, the second pride.

 

I'm not of the view that religion can be validated or argued scientifically, and you have mistaken me for someone who cares what the skeptics will think of me or Christianity for discussing things publicly.

 

I don't think many care what people think about you (although I could be wrong). Personally, I DO care what people think about Christianity- and so should you. A prideful presentation for the negitive offends me very much, actually.

 

If people take my words as irrefutable truth, that's their problem.

 

Wrong. As we are to be witnesses to the world, the content of what you say becomes somewhat important.

 

Please forgive my frustrated rantings.

 

As always! :D We all need it.

[Southtown]

If all ideas that couldn't be defended were invalidated, science would be in big trouble.

 

And I wasn't just challenged, but scolded.

[eMTee]

A Christian is not determined by

wether or not you believe the creation story as the way it explains,

if you believe in eternal security or not,

wether baptism is required for salvation, or if it's only a public deminstration

which Church denomination you go to

what your views on certain Bible passages interpretations are

wether you been a good or bad person.

 

These dabates are a way to get to understand more. I see it as a good thing that we bring up differing views (not to an extreme amount). None of us can say that we understand the Bible the whole way threw. There are many people with many veiws on the Bible...most certainly there cannot be many meanings..so I see this free speeking out each ones beliefs (with reason) as beneficial, to the understanding.

 

What makes a Christian is their faith and trust on the Lord Jesus Christ, and a personal relationchip with God. This is what makes one a Christian.