The Bible and it's religion.

[Fishteacher73]

I find it a bit odd that logic is trying to be used in faith. To say that it would be illogical for a god to not behave in a trinity (because he's god, by your definition and possible of anything?) is a bit like arguing that it is illogical that god created everything, and a bit contratdictory to the whole faith in god thing right?

 

To pick and choose to your convienence what is logical or not for a deity to do seems a bit absurd. To grant something infinite power in one sentence yet put a yolk on it for your point inanother is just plain contradictory.

[IrishEyes]

Ok, nemo will be home shortly, and I still have to take the truck to the dump and get rid of the old couch, but I wanted to jump into this one. It *almost* feels like old times, eh?

 

I've only got 27 minutes until the dump closes though, so my full response will have to wait. It does seem that both sides are doing a bang up job of presenting their sides without hostility, and I commend you all on that. And of course, it just makes me giggle to see, as usual, two Christians fighting over certain points, each hoping to make the other see that their truth is The Truth.

 

Will people never learn?

Be back in a bit gang...

[IrishEyes]

There are many denominations claiming to be "the Church" and to be "Christian", but how many are actually fallowing the teachings of the very book they base their faith on? "Christianity" is one of biggest religion in the world..coming in at least second or third (to my understanding).

 

Any questions about anything, or comments?

Ok, I've quoted the original post because that's where I want to START. And I'll break this up over the next few days, so you all actually read my posts, instead of doing like I've done with a few of the VERY long ones in this thread (ummm, ok, MANY of the longer ones). We've learned, kids, that the best way to be read here is to keep your posts short and to the point, unless you are getting very technical. As there isn't a whole lot that can be considered technical here, no post should really be that long, right?

 

If a church claims to be Christian, they base their faith on Jesus, not God. As already mentioned, there are other religions that acknowledge the same GOD the Christians claim. They don't base their faith on any book, but instead on the idea, or their idea of the truth of the concept, of Jesus. The most widely recognized book that explains about Jesus is the Bible, regardless of what flavor you choose to read. Whether or not you believe the Bible in its entirety will generally determine what denomination you choose, with a little help from family and friends, in most cases.

 

As for how many of these denominations can actually call themselves "THE Church", and how many are really Christians... Gimme a break, please. That's like asking which people are true Americans. The answer varies, depending on what you consider a true Christian, or American. And there really is no correct answer. If I told you that I knew the Truth, based on my extensive research and knowledge of the Bible, I'd be as wrong as any of you are.

 

And frankly, to the two of you that profess Christianity, what the hell are you thinking, bickering points here? Do you not understand that it is exactly that attitude that gets you laughed at, and gives Christianity a bad name with people who do not believe? How are others supposed to take your religion seriously if you can't even agree yourselves, yet you both profess to know the Truth??? C'mon!!

[eMTee]

I'm sorry, but I guess I'lll be the one that has to break it to you....

It depends on what brand of Chritianity you are talking about [i know yours is the only real Chistianity].

We as christians do think diffrently about diffrent passages, but all of us (when coming to the gospel message) we agree with the vital importence of the acts of Jesus and and having faith and trust in him.

 

Why do you guys call God a 'Father' i dont get that... and i dont really like it.. because it doesnt really make any sense

“For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together. Romans 8:14-17

 

your questions and definitions reveals you do not understand the Bible.

 

But of corse it is confusing, if you do not try to understand. What kind of people do you get your information from??!

some gay people sat that King James was GAy?

ok..that answers it. Would you like to understand what the Bible is saying?

 

By the way, King James was NOT gay...where in the Bible do they get that?!

[eMTee]

I am NOT a charismatic..I do not take everyones' "experiences with anything" and take it as fact! I would like everyone to understand it. I do not go running arround town with a Bible in hand, screeming "the end is coming the end is coming!!"

 

You look at people like that and just asume that I am the same as them. I do say..there are a ton of people that just go wacko, and fall on their haces and start crowling in circles. saying " the holy spirit is in me" The same as with those "preachers" on TV saying "give money and God will bless you" and "touch the screen and you will be healed".

[IrishEyes]

We as christians do think diffrently about diffrent passages, but all of us (when coming to the gospel message) we agree with the vital importence of the acts of Jesus and and having faith and trust in him.[/Quote]

Are you serious? Do you honestly believe that? Tell me what street corner you preach on so I can come by and hear you some night.

First, use proper capitalization if you want to appear sincere. Even most that don't believe will use a Big "c" for "Christian", out of some modicum of respect.

Second, if all Christians agreed with the "vital importance of the acts of Jesus and and having faith and trust in him", there would be no need for so many different denominations. Take a look at things from a step back and you may understand what I mean. Within Christianity, there are different denominations. Within those denominations, there are different sub-denominations. It goes on and on. How many different labels can you give a Baptist? And they are 'different' as they are NOT Protestants. Just ask them, they'll tell you that they are the oldest branch of Christianity out there.

How long have you been a Christian? How old are you? How studied are you in your faith? And which brand of Christianity do you call your own? I'll wait for your answers before I continue.

 

“For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together. Romans 8:14-17

Which version of the Bible is this? How are you certain that you are using the correct version?

 

your questions and definitions reveals you do not understand the Bible.

No more so than your posts reveal your understanding. Questions are how people learn. If you are not ok with answering questions about your faith, why bother posting?

 

But of corse it is confusing, if you do not try to understand. What kind of people do you get your information from??!

Probably the same kind of people that YOU get your information from, would be my guess... people that are not willing to take under consideration anything that they might not fully understand or agree with.

 

ok..that answers it. Would you like to understand what the Bible is saying?

Are YOU going to explain the Bible? Do you have a degree in Theology or Divinity that would lend credence to your explanations? This ought to be GREAT!

 

By the way, King James was NOT gay...where in the Bible do they get that?!

I don't recall anyone saying that they found in the Bible that King James was gay. I think that it was mentioned that a lot of "gay people" say that King james was gay. Are you trying to call people that read the Bible gay now? But do you know for a fact that he wasn't? Make up your mind already!

[eMTee]

Irisheyes..I see that you take every denomination that calls them the Church and Christian, and puts them in that catagory...obviously, you arent in any of these denominations or "Churches". And you dont get the whole idea of the three in one.

 

I would like to answer questions about my faith...but right now everyone seems to take my answers like in one ear and out the other.

 

About the Gay quote..I did not quote that, and I was not the one who says that whoever reads the Bible is gay, I will go with "a lot of gay people read the Bible"- as does a lot of people who like to twist the meaning of it.

 

I will try to look up the passages that these people get their opinions.

[IrishEyes]

Irisheyes..I see that you take every denomination that calls them the Church and Christian, and puts them in that catagory...obviously, you arent in any of these denominations or "Churches". And you dont get the whole idea of the three in one.

I am LAUGHING right now! You are really something, you know that? You better tread very lightly here, kid.

 

I would like to answer questions about my faith...but right now everyone seems to take my answers like in one ear and out the other.

Then answer the questions that I asked you, and quit making excuses. Whether or not you like how people take your ramblings is, quite frankly, irrelevant!

 

About the Gay quote..I did not quote that, and I was not the one who says that whoever reads the Bible is gay, I will go with "a lot of gay people read the Bible"- as does a lot of people who like to twist the meaning of it.

Get a life, ok? Do you understand sarcasm? Or does your version of Christianity not allow that?

 

I will try to look up the passages that these people get their opinions.

Yeah, you do that, ok? I'll be waiting for your response... :xx: Try to be as specific as possible. In a SCIENCE forum, it is not unheard of for people to want to check your references.

[eMTee]

I am sorry, I notice go kind of crazy sometimes..as of last post

 

I dont preach on any street corner, neither in any church..I'm not a pastor or preacher...I'm just a random Nondenominational christian who knows what he believes. I do think I need to be more calm.

 

The reason I believe that every christian has practicly the same view on the gospel meassage is because that is the foundation of salvation..and the Bible makes plainly clear the importence of it.

wether Lutheren, Methodist, Baptist, or most of those other denominations out there, they all acknowledge the gospel, some may have diffrent veiws on diffrent things, but still can agree with gospel of Christ. to my knowlege. Now when it comes to Jahovah's Witness, Mormon and Baptist..now those are three diffrent religions.

 

Now some of the denominations do take more time preaching good works then the Gospel, such as the Catholics, and probably some of the other denominations I mentioned (Sorry to offend anyone), depending on what Church you go to..I have talked to Baptists that dont know the Gospel, that believe they are going to heaven threw their good lives, because the preacher refrans from the Demons, Devil, Hell and sin part...dont you think that talking about that is the scar tactic. because it is the truth, would you tell a friend that he's ok if he is about to fall off a cliff, and not talking about these things only destroys the Church.

[IrishEyes]

I am sorry, I notice go kind of crazy sometimes..as of last post...

I dont preach on any street corner, neither in any church..I'm not a pastor or preacher...I'm just a random Nondenominational christian who knows what he believes...The reason I believe that every christian has practicly the same view on the gospel meassage is because that is the foundation of salvation..and the Bible makes plainly clear the importence of it.

wether Lutheren, Methodist, Baptist, or most of those other denominations out there, they all acknowledge the gospel, some may have diffrent veiws on diffrent things, but still can agree with gospel of Christ. to my knowlege. Now when it comes to Jahovah's Witness, Mormon and Baptist..now those are three diffrent religions... Now some of the denominations do take more time preaching good works then the Gospel... I have talked to Baptists that dont know the Gospel, that believe they are going to heaven threw their good lives, because the preacher refrans from the Demons, Devil, Hell and sin part...dont you think that talking about that is the scar tactic...

Oh boy! Now we're getting someplace.

So, you're neither a Biblical scholar nor a preacher, just a random Christian, that still refuses to use a capital letter for the name of your Saviour, eh? Sounds great to me.

Here's the deal, kid. You've got a lot to learn. And if you're ready, we can begin any time.

I'm not a Preacher either. But I've done a bit of schooling. And regardless of your claims to know what I believe, you are dead wrong.

I not only do not think that every person that claims Christianity is a Christian, I also take the Trinity seriously. However, I am also humble enough, or smart enough (depending on how you see it), to know that I am in NO POSITION to decide who is or is not a Christian.

No, all churches that call themselves Christian do not follow the same idea of the Gospel. There are many variations, and each one believes that they are the only correct one. To say that they all agree on any basic fundamental doctrine is ridiculous. The teachings of Christ? Look around you! Every thing that He taught seems to be open to a different interpretation. Why? Think about that one.

I'll give you my opinion: because people can NOT understand what God intended. People can only follow human nature, and that generally means doing what they think is best for themselves. After they are happy, safe, content, then they look around them and see what they might be able to do to help others that are near them. Once the ones close seem ok, then they might look further, to see if there is anything else that can be done. All the while, they believe that they have some inside track on Truth, you know- the Capital "T" kind of TRUTH. They think that if only others would listen to them, and do exactly what they say, and believe exactly what they believe, everyone would be happy. What crap!

 

And I have no idea what type of Baptists you have talked with, as there are many different flavors of that denomination, but in my area, there isn't a single Baptist chruch that preaches the way you mention. Have you ever heard of a "hellfire and brimstone" sermon? That phrase describes the Baptist preachers in this area. Sin and Hell is the main gist of the sermon. Not a feel-good, happy place on Sunday, most Baptist churches. But then again, it's generally not viewed as a feel-good religion.

 

And how exactly, with your extensive knowledge of the Bible, does it say how to determine which church is correct? I've read it a bit, and I've never come across and litmus test for Christianity contained in its pages. Can you point me to the chapter and verse? Thanks for your help! :xx:

[Southtown]

Soutdown, your answer about war against islam and vice-versa is very consistent, but doesn't deny what I said there is people who use christian values to say that islamic countries are evil and vice-versa.

That's because I wasn't denying it. :xx: I was agreeing with you that people do this, but I was also saying that it pertains to the individuals negatively and not the religion, since it is the people being deceptive, while the book is inanimate.

 

If a church claims to be Christian, they base their faith on Jesus, not God. As already mentioned, there are other religions that acknowledge the same GOD the Christians claim. They don't base their faith on any book, but instead on the idea, or their idea of the truth of the concept, of Jesus.

Ideas that either harmonize with scripture or they don't... The bible isn't so hard to understand that it could mean anything. The bible has words, words have meanings, and if you string them into sentences they make ideas, very specific ideas. If you read the bible, you will know which churches are authentic and which are not.

 

The problem is that people deviate from the bible and cease to be authentic Christians and become counterfeit, because the sources of new ideas or omissions don't come from the bible but from elsewhere. So then, you cannot judge the book by the interpreters, you must judge the interpreters by the book, because again the book is inanimate.

 

And frankly, to the two of you that profess Christianity, what the hell are you thinking, bickering points here? Do you not understand that it is exactly that attitude that gets you laughed at, and gives Christianity a bad name with people who do not believe? How are others supposed to take your religion seriously if you can't even agree yourselves, yet you both profess to know the Truth??? C'mon!!

No. We both profess to know what we know and a little about the bible which is more than most of you can say. You critics are just using the mutual contemplation (disagreements) of imperfect human beings over a very old, very large collection of ancient writings as an excuse not to evaluate the bible for yourselves. It seems to me that you are the ones making us laugh.

 

If you want to discredit Christianity you have to do it with the bible and not the believers, since all people are imperfect, including Christians (authentic or otherwise.) Does being a musician also mean being a child molestor, since MJ is one? The logic is ludicrous. You science guys should learn to parse and validate information a little better before drawing conclusions.

 

And how exactly, with your extensive knowledge of the Bible, does it say how to determine which church is correct? I've read it a bit, and I've never come across and litmus test for Christianity contained in its pages. Can you point me to the chapter and verse? Thanks for your help! :)

The answer to your question is the whole thing, but 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 is my favorite:

 

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

 

Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

They don't LOVE truth so as to seek it, but attempt to MAKE truth to fit them, so they can live how they want, not caring what is good or right but only interested in themselves. For instance people who claim to be Christian but only twist scripture at their whim, and also those who don't even read the scripture to know for themselves but only scoff at others who honestly search everywhere they can for Truth.

[IrishEyes]

Southtown and eMTee,

Before you go any further with your silly suppositions about all of "us" science types, I suggest you do one very simple thing. Click on my name, and then read some of my earlier posts regarding religion, theology, the church, Christianity, and any other subject that you can think of relating to those, ok? Do it now, don't wait.

After you have done that, then come back here and post again. Tell me exactly how I am a 'critic' and how I make you laugh, ok? I've been here just a tad longer than you have, if you haven't already noticed. I've been through these types of discussions at this site long before Tormod ever thought of creating a "Theology" forum. Do your homework instead of making assumptions, kids.

 

I am pointing out to you that instead of fighting amongst yourselves, you need to find some common ground. Otherwise, it seems to the rest of us, believers and non-believers alike, that you - and by extension your religions, are just a bunch of ridiculous crap.

[IrishEyes]

And FYI, the verses you quoted still do not explain how any person can determine whether any other person is a 'true' Christian or not. If you are going to quote Scripture, at least make it relative to the question that was asked.

[IrishEyes]

No. We both profess to know what we know and a little about the bible which is more than most of you can say. You critics are just using the mutual contemplation (disagreements) of imperfect human beings over a very old, very large collection of ancient writings as an excuse not to evaluate the bible for yourselves. It seems to me that you are the ones making us laugh.

If you want to discredit Christianity you have to do it with the bible and not the believers, since all people are imperfect, including Christians (authentic or otherwise.) Does being a musician also mean being a child molestor, since MJ is one? The logic is ludicrous. You science guys should learn to parse and validate information a little better before drawing conclusions.

Food for thought...

People best understand your point when you actually make one.

Before you suggest that a group of people ("you science guys", "more than most of you", etc) do or do not know about a topic, you should do your homework. Blanket generalizations are normally very easy to discredit. For instance, there is one particular 'science guy' that occasionally frequents this site that knows Scripture better than most Christians I have ever met. Is this person a Christian? Not a chance. He's a very vocal atheist. Knowing the Scriptures and believing them are two very different things. And many people that do not believe them can not be accused of ignorance of them.

Second, unless you are prepared to defend yourself with facts, do not start a discussion about people discrediting Christianity using the Bible. Trust me that you will only open yourself up to many hours of headache. And unless you are some type of Biblical scholar, you will doubtless create many more skeptics than converts to your cause. That's just the way of the beast, kid.

[Boerseun]

...matter of fact, Irish - the best tool to discredit the Believers' arguments, is the Bible itself! :xx:

[Southtown]

Ok IrishEyes, feel free to leave us to our discussion of this topic in the theology thread at any time, or add to the discussion. As of yet, you have done neither. The topic, by the way, pertains to Christian church's following the bible. Whether you believe the bible or not, is not a prerequisite to either interpreting it or judging church's by it.

 

And I don't care who you are. I'm replying to your posts as written, that's usually how written communications work. We are after all only comparing ideas here, and we should assist the casual readers with as much info as possible with our posts. Your credulity alone will not bear your opinion over ours, sorry.

[bumab]

...matter of fact, Irish - the best tool to discredit the Believers' arguments, is the Bible itself! :xx:

 

Ah, I disagree! Perhaps it's the best tool to discredit SOME arguements, but that's a long ways from the implied "all" in your statement. You make a good point, however. Most atempts to use the scriptures to promote some idea over others ends in misery- especially when the persons pride is involved.