The Bible and it's religion.

[Chacmool]

A Christian is not determined by

wether or not you believe the creation story as the way it explains,

if you believe in eternal security or not,

wether baptism is required for salvation, or if it's only a public deminstration

which Church denomination you go to

what your views on certain Bible passages interpretations are

wether you been a good or bad person.

 

These dabates are a way to get to understand more. I see it as a good thing that we bring up differing views (not to an extreme amount). None of us can say that we understand the Bible the whole way threw. There are many people with many veiws on the Bible...most certainly there cannot be many meanings..so I see this free speeking out each ones beliefs (with reason) as beneficial, to the understanding.

 

What makes a Christian is their faith and trust on the Lord Jesus Christ, and a personal relationchip with God. This is what makes one a Christian.

Well done, eMTee - this might just be your most thoughtful post ever. I still disagree with you on most issues regarding faith and I continue to be an atheist, but mutual respect is very important and these discussions can only lead to greater understanding of each other (even if it sometimes gets a bit heated!).

[IrishEyes]

I agree with Chacmool. Good job, eMTee! You are right on, as far as I'm concerned. You sum it up very nicely, and I couldn't agree more.

 

bumab and niviene, it's not often that I blush, but you both managed to make me do it. Thanks. It's nice to hear that people actually care... :)

 

Southtown, if all you got out of this discussion was that you were scolded... we've got some problems.

 

I'm a mom. I have six children. I am home with all of them all day, every day, as we homeschool. The last thing I want is to sit at my computer and see people online acting like children. I've been a Moderator or Administrator here for over a year. When I think someone is acting childish, I tell them they are acting childish. When I see people disputing, rahter than discussing, I tell them that as well. I try very hard to make sure that I am being constructive with my criticism, especially when dealing with people that are rather new here. I think I did ok this time, as eMTee seemed to understand and appreciate what I said. If you disagree, you are more than welcome to complain to Tormod or another Moderator or Administrator. That goes for anyone else that has a problem with anything that a Mod says as well.

[emessay]

If all ideas that couldn't be defended were invalidated, science would be in big trouble.

 

And I wasn't just challenged, but scolded.

 

I believe science would never be in trouble, science is neutral forever, but consciousness would colour it and life must be VIP and 'forever VIP"............... :)

[IrishEyes]

Irish, you claim to be Christian, that's cool. Whatever. You discredit the bible as an authority, so what is it that makes you Christian, in your opinion? I'm sorry for misunderstanding you, but I don't appreciate being scolded like a child for sharing my views. If people take my words as irrefutable truth, that's their problem. 'Tis the essence of traditionalism, and the beginning of denominationalism.

 

If you'd read my rather lengthy posts, you'd know my disdain for denominational wars and the callous disregard of non-believers. You'd also know I think God views people who search honestly for the truth as more pure than those with a wealth of accumulated knowlegde. A pure heart is better than a full mind. I too believe that no one knows a person's state of salvation but God, but I wasn't talking about people nor salvation. I was under the impression the topic was denominations, whether or not teachings were inline with scripture. I see your point about subjective interpretations, though, I will shut up now. Please forgive my frustrated rantings.

 

I need to clear up a few things, or ask for some clarification, before I move on.

Where, exactly, did I discredit the Bible as an authority?

You weren't scolded for sharing your views. I was pointing out how detrimental it could be to a non-believer to see two people calling themselves Christians not agreeing on any of the basics. I can understand why vocal atheists see us as a 'religion of one', if we can't agree on anything. If you want to keep airing your differences, be prepared to hear from more than just the people that are questioning. You will attract people that want to point out how ridiculous it appears to have two people from the same professed religion not able to agree.

 

And as bumab points out, you should care, very much, how other people see you, especially when you are talking about your faith. Being zealous is one thing, and can even sometimes be considered admirable. Presenting your views as the only right way is not a good thing. What if you are incorrect, and someone takes your view as fact? Have you not led them down a wrong path? "I" am not always right. But I do generally encourage people to search for themselves, and to find out their own Truth. We will not all come to the same conclusions regarding what the Bible says or intends. But if we seek after the Truth with a pure heart, as you suggest, I think God will be more than willing to fogive our human errors. But leading someone astray due to pride or arrogance probably will not get you any brownie points with the Big Guy.

 

And while we are told to have a pure heart, we are also told to keep learning. There's practically an entire book devoted just to learning, or gaining wisdom:

Proverbs 4:5a - Get wisdom, get understanding: forget it not;

Proverbs 4:7 - Wisdom is the pricipal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

 

If you want to talk about denominations, and whether certain ones are in line with Scripture, you will need to be very specific. You'll need to state which version of the Bible you are using, and how a particular church or denomination is keeping, or not keeping, the Doctrines, according to your views. Personally, I'd love that type of discussion. But you have to be willing to take criticism. Your views will not always be accepted, no matter how much you believe them. But if that's the type of discussion you want, PLEASE start a new thread and be very specific in your first post. I'll see you in the new thread!! :)

[Southtown]

If you want to talk about denominations, and whether certain ones are in line with Scripture, you will need to be very specific. You'll need to state which version of the Bible you are using, and how a particular church or denomination is keeping, or not keeping, the Doctrines, according to your views. Personally, I'd love that type of discussion. But you have to be willing to take criticism. Your views will not always be accepted, no matter how much you believe them. But if that's the type of discussion you want, PLEASE start a new thread and be very specific in your first post. I'll see you in the new thread!! :)

Thank you I most certainly will, and I look forward to sharing information with a high-calibur scholar such as yourself.

 

I need to clear up a few things, or ask for some clarification, before I move on.

Where, exactly, did I discredit the Bible as an authority?

You weren't scolded for sharing your views. I was pointing out how detrimental it could be to a non-believer to see two people calling themselves Christians not agreeing on any of the basics. I can understand why vocal atheists see us as a 'religion of one', if we can't agree on anything. If you want to keep airing your differences, be prepared to hear from more than just the people that are questioning. You will attract people that want to point out how ridiculous it appears to have two people from the same professed religion not able to agree.

K maybe I just assumed you were discrediting the bible, sorry. I'm sure we would have ventured into version differences as they were brought up, if and when they pertain to interpretation. For everyones' awareness, I prefer NKJV since I hear it's Hebrew is among the most accurate, even though it's NT is based on the Textus Receptus (I prefer Majority Text, but translations are proving rare.) I'm no scholar, but I'm willing to discuss different versions as they apply to the topic.

 

And as bumab points out, you should care, very much, how other people see you, especially when you are talking about your faith. Being zealous is one thing, and can even sometimes be considered admirable. Presenting your views as the only right way is not a good thing. What if you are incorrect, and someone takes your view as fact? Have you not led them down a wrong path? "I" am not always right. But I do generally encourage people to search for themselves, and to find out their own Truth. We will not all come to the same conclusions regarding what the Bible says or intends. But if we seek after the Truth with a pure heart, as you suggest, I think God will be more than willing to fogive our human errors. But leading someone astray due to pride or arrogance probably will not get you any brownie points with the Big Guy.

Of course, I care what damage can be done by bad representation. But, if my conscience is clean concerning my beliefs (meaning I'm doing my best,) what control do I have over a critics opinion? That's all I was saying. Discussing doctrines didn't seem to me detrimental because, of all people, the atheists should see by our differing opinions that Christians are not just a bunch of mindless conformists. Isn't that their biggest complaint? That we simply fall in line to fit in, or we cling to whatever makes us feel safe, without thinking clearly? If we all came in here singing the same tune, then they would laugh at us.

 

And while we are told to have a pure heart, we are also told to keep learning. There's practically an entire book devoted just to learning, or gaining wisdom:

Proverbs 4:5a - Get wisdom, get understanding: forget it not;

Proverbs 4:7 - Wisdom is the pricipal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

Amen. And my personal favorite:

 

Isaiah 1:18 (New King James Version)

"Come now, and let us reason together,"

Says the LORD,

"Though your sins are like scarlet,

They shall be as white as snow;

Though they are red like crimson,

They shall be as wool."

[eMTee]

But if we seek after the Truth with a pure heart, as you suggest, I think God will be more than willing to fogive our human errors.

I say "If we seek the truth with a pure heart, then God will show it, no matter where we are. If we live our lives even with a "pure" heart, it wouldn't be pure enough without Jesus Christ."

 

James 2:10, "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

 

A man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

-Galatians 2:16

 

. . . not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us . .

-Titus 3:5

 

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

-Romans 3:23

[niviene]

bumab and niviene, it's not often that I blush, but you both managed to make me do it. Thanks. It's nice to hear that people actually care... :D

 

Oh, we care... and those of us searching for answers tend to listen to the voice of reason rather than the ones who are constantly arguing (get this... even if we might agree with what they have to say....just to add to your previous comment :D ) Sometimes I just like to read rational opinion to see what other people like me think about certain points, and not think about anything I might see to be contradicting or not making sense - those things just add stress and don't get me anywhere, usually. But, certain people have ways of making sense of things - something that I envy (dang, coveting again!) and that is what I am after. I think, "If only I could believe...." and then I look, not for answers, because when I get in that frame of mind, I'm beyond looking for those - but for peace; for someone who is already there and it shows in everything they do and say. So, yes, we care, and we listen... I'm sure I'm not the only one, but who cares if I am? :)

[Southtown]

As for how many of these denominations can actually call themselves "THE Church", and how many are really Christians... Gimme a break, please. That's like asking which people are true Americans. The answer varies, depending on what you consider a true Christian, or American. And there really is no correct answer. If I told you that I knew the Truth, based on my extensive research and knowledge of the Bible, I'd be as wrong as any of you are.

I'm sorry Irish, I've been an ***. Please forgive me, I don't know what made me think you were attacking me or Christianity. Rereading your posts I don't know what made me think you were either against or ignorant of Christianity. I have been known to get defensive and bull-headed before, though. I hope I can live this down, and you can consider this *** humbled. :)

[IrishEyes]

I'm sorry Irish, I've been an ***. Please forgive me, I don't know what made me think you were attacking me or Christianity. Rereading your posts I don't know what made me think you were either against or ignorant of Christianity. I have been known to get defensive and bull-headed before, though. I hope I can live this down, and you can consider this *** humbled. :)

Southtown, please don't apologize, ok? You were defending yourself, and your faith, when you thought you were being attacked. And you didn't back down. Good for you.

I just see lots of people that come in here and try to present their own beliefs as the 'right' way. Many of them post a lot in the first week or two, then leave. While they are posting, they have a way of turning off people that are still searching for answers.

Tormod is very gracious to allow the religious discussions here, so I've learned to try to keep them within the parameters of the rest of the forums. And I've learned that the hard way. I made more than my share of mistakes during the last year or so, but it's been a lot of fun making them.

Again, I'm very sorry that you took my criticism to be an attack. It's just that I've seen so many of these discussions in the past, and I can generally guess which direction they will head, and where the critics will decide to attack.

I'm not trying to humble anyone, as I've got enough work to do on myself in that area. And trust me when I say that you have nothing to live down. While Tormod may have a good memory, he's also known as being very forgiving, a trait that has benefitted me on more than one occassion. I doubt many have much worse to live down than almost getting banned in their first week by the site owner - something that I managed to do. :D

[eMTee]

I do not consider myself a donkey. though I cannot say I havn't acted like an animal sometimes.

[Southtown]

Well I will have to reformulate an argument taking into consideration textual criticism. I have so far operated on the "mostly accurate" belief in current translations. And Irish was right that the argument requires particular denominations and doctrines, not just my ideological interpretation. So gimme time. LOL

[Chacmool]

And while we are told to have a pure heart, we are also told to keep learning. There's practically an entire book devoted just to learning, or gaining wisdom:

Proverbs 4:5a - Get wisdom, get understanding: forget it not;

Proverbs 4:7 - Wisdom is the pricipal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

Yes, although I'm not a Christian, I'm particularly fond of Psalms and Proverbs. They contain such beautiful thoughts about how to be a better person, whether or not you are religious. Irish, these quotes you posted probably sum up why we are all here on Hypography. :)

[Biochemist]

Well I will have to reformulate an argument taking into consideration textual criticism. I have so far operated on the "mostly accurate" belief in current translations...

I think your approach is fundamentally reasonable, although there are a lot of credible concerns about the validity of the text before Genesis 12. And I have never seen a reasonable interpretation (from anyone) for the first half of Genesis 6. But it makes good fodder for a lot of alien intervention theories.

[eMTee]

(refering to all people religous and non-religous, Christian and non-Christian)so in your opinions and observation and study of the Bible and the christian community, what do you think the Bible is teaching when it comes to it's religion? as in what is the way to Heaven, and who is accepted.

 

About Genesis chapter 6.

 

I would need to read it before I try to think what you are refering to...but I'll take a guess.

 

Is it the part that mentions that the sons of God doing somthing with the daughters of men?

[Boerseun]

(refering to all people religous and non-religous, Christian and non-Christian)so in your opinions and observation and study of the Bible and the christian community, what do you think the Bible is teaching when it comes to it's religion? as in what is the way to Heaven, and who is accepted.

 

About Genesis chapter 6.

 

I would need to read it before I try to think what you are refering to...but I'll take a guess.

 

Is it the part that mentions that the sons of God doing somthing with the daughters of men?

Read Ezekiel chapters 1 & 2. The Bible is about UFO's and aliens, dude...

[Queso]

:xx: :)

[Southtown]

Is it the part that mentions that the sons of God doing somthing with the daughters of men?

Yes. And there's no reason it would be referring to angels, Boerseun. According to Enoch they were teaching sorcery, astronomy, and cosmetics which was bad. They also fornicated, which produced half-breeds, known as giants and men of renown. God then brought the flood because of it all. Now the fallen angels are bodiless demons awaiting judgement.