The Bible and it's religion.

[Boerseun]

I'm not running away from an argument.

 

No way.

 

But - I just got home from a very enjoyable evening with a couple o' friends of mine, and I felt oblidged to check up on what's happening on my favourite passtime, being Hypograpgy, and happened to read these last two posts.

 

I could've just shut the hell up and went to sleep.

 

I could've just ignored it and carried on with my life.

 

I could've just gone on and not irritate myself with all this ignorant ranting.

 

But I wont.

 

No.

 

If you give me another couple of hours so that I can sober up, and sleep (for a change), I will answer you guys in detail.

 

I know - I'm not saying anything now, and I apologize - but I couldn't leave it there. I had to at least signal my intention of posting something significant. Just gimme time to wake up, okay?

 

Gimme a coupla hours, and we'll talk again.

 

Maybe, for the sake of brevity, Uncle Al can cover for me here. This is obvious horseshit.

[eMTee]

I could've just shut *EDITED* up and went to sleep.

 

I could've just ignored it and carried on with my life.

 

I could've just gone on and not irritate myself with all this ignorant ranting.

 

This should not be the aditude of the Christian, but so many out there are like this.

 

I agree with you ..I as a christian should never say "forget about it, I'll just mind my own business" and watch them die never telling them aboun it.

[sanctus]

Welcome to the forum, I think you will trigger some nice discussions.

 

Are you numbering yourself with the Christians? Or with the Jews? Because neither are starting wars with Islam.

 

And what is Bush doing? Isn't he pushing to war with the islam using also so-called cristian values? Yes, obviously there is no christian aggregation which says we are going to war with the islam, but some people use some christian values for excuse.

 

 

The world simply hates God's people, and your post is evidence of that, Boerseun.

 

Why do you say the world hates god's people? Already there are more believers and pseudo belivers (the ones who do just for not standing out) than non-believers; so your concept of world is quite strange.

Why should I hate you, if I just think you are not strong enough to live a life without an illusion of something protecting/looking on/responsible (or whatever) you, without a so called god? I do not hate any believer, I respect them with their strengths and weaknesses and in my (enphatise my) view of the world, believing is an (intellectual) weakness...it's so comfortable to believe....

Not having the same view doesn't imply hate!

 

 

And just to answer an old question of eMtee:"the bike is a normal human bike, therefore useless to the fish".

[Southtown]

Thanx, eMTee, nice ta be here. Hello, Boerseun. God bless. I went from talking science in a Christian forum to talking Christianity in a science forum. :hihi: By the way, how appropriate we should differ in beliefs in this thread. LOL

 

I agree with you fully on most of what you said..the only things that differ on is when you said that the Muslem people are some migrants from Sadi-Arabia. I get it that you are saying that they are just some migrants wanting the Holy Land (in which that was possably not all you ment). They are decendents from Ishmael, which was one of the sons of Abraham...so they got that.

I've heard that before, too. And maybe so, but the question begs, "then why did Islam start with Muhammed who wasn't even born until 570 A.D.?" Regardless, they do not have a historical claim to Israel, while the Jews have centuries of literary and archeological evidence to back their claims. No one publicly disputes this, it simply gets ignored during the media reports.

 

For one, the Bible says several times that for those who goes to hell, it's for all eternity.

I once thought that way until I was convinced otherwise through scripture. Hmmm, lemme dig up some quotes. Isaiah 5:24; Obadiah 1:17-18; Malachi 4:1-3; Matthew 10:28; 2 Peter 2:12 Also, you have to admit that when you first considered eternal fire, you tripped over the idea of a loving God administering it. I know I did when I was young, and most non-believers will admit it's the reason they don't believe. It's just not consistent: "a provident God has to let them suffer forever", "a loving God designed this punishment." I eventually just grew to accept it by faith. Now I know that God is provident, and doesn't have to allow eternal torment. By contrast, a once-and-for-all destruction by fire would be considered merciful and make more sense.

 

This false doctrine came through mingling with Greek mythology, the flesh dies but the soul is immortal. Therefore, those who are not "of God" suffer ceaselessly in the afterlife. But scripture maintains that men are not immortal by nature, but that were are made that way at the transformation. Romans 2:7; 1 Corinthians 15:53-54; 1 Timothy 6:13-16; 2 Timothy 1:10

 

When everyone is judged, they will be judged by their faith in Christ.

That is true. But what about those who never heard of Jesus? Does God not love them also? What about Abraham? Or David? Or the prophets? They never heard of Jesus. Abraham believed in God and it was accouted to him as righteousness. The same was true for the other Godly people in the OT. Romans 4:23-25 It is my conjecture that it also applies to those who never hear of God but who are like-minded in spirit, seeking peace and unity rather than self-gratification, contributing to the whole of creation in a very general sense. Romans 2:5-16 Love is the sum of the law, after all. Galatians 5:14

 

But of course, rejecting Jesus when confronted with Him is inexcuseable since He is free salvation. There's obviously never going to be an easier way, so those are exposed as impossible to please who refuse free salvation. This to me is a convincing argument for divine plan for the rightful and fair purification of humankind in preperation for a perfect eternal existence.

[adnaan]

Well... i dont want to be a complainer.. but...

 

For a person who believes in a God.. wouldnt you make him divine in everyway.. but yet it seems that you people say that Jesus was God.. isnt that a degrading thought.. to give human characteristics to "God"..

basically you guys are referring his creations to him.. which is basically what hindu's do.. they pray to rocks.. you pray to a human.. you both pray to creations.. (if you would put it in a point of view in believing in a God)

 

Oh yeah.. and Many muslims lived in Isreal/Palestine.. then one day some people came and kicked them out.. you know how i know.. i actualy know people who were forced out.. and people's grandparents.. who were living life normally then kicked out.. because some jewish people wanted to live in that Land again..

 

and to conclude.. i donno but i can never say that someone or some person currently or in the past is a God.. even iF they had miracles such as healing.. i would say God gave that power to them.. i would not say that "he" was God.

[eMTee]

I am sorry we have a disagreement.

It's just not consistent: "a provident God has to let them suffer forever", "a loving God designed this punishment." I eventually just grew to accept it by faith.

God is love, that is why he sent his son to die...if he didn't do that, then we would be lost.

It is not God that throws us into Hell, it is ourselves that do that..but it is only Jesus that saves us from hell.

 

What about Abraham? Or David? Or the prophets? They never heard of Jesus. Abraham believed in God and it was accouted to him as righteousness.

For one, the prophecy of Christ Jesus was revealed to early mankind, even to Adam, after God made for them garments out of skin from animals. The making garments for Adam and Eve from animal skins can, and I believe where a representation to them of what blood sacrifice does for ones sinfull state, and what will happen when Jesus died. Before Jesus, the remedy for sin was only threw animal blood sacrifice, and obeying God's laws..also, you had to be a Hebrew..if one did not do this, then he/she was hopeless. this was what they had to do until Jesus came, of course they never heard of Jesus, Christianity didn't start untill like 30 AD when Jesus fullfilled all of the prophecies.

 

When everyone is judged, they will be judged by their faith in Christ.

 

 

That is true. But what about those who never heard of Jesus? Does God not love them also?

John 3:16 is a good verse for this. I believe that those who have never herd the gospel in their lifetime, they may get that choice to eather accept it or reject it..but it also says if they look at creation (such as the stars) it will leave no excuse for them to believe that there is a God, and that he is good. I also believe that if you search for the truth with a wanting mind, God will show it to you..no matter if you are in the busy city or the bush in Africa.

 

 

These are a few verses suporting an eternal Judgment in Hell.

 

 

Mark 9:43-48

"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched''.

 

Matthew 25:46

“And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal”.

 

Revelation 14:11

“And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night”.

 

2 Thessalonians 1:9

“Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;”

 

 

Matthew 25:41-46

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” Jesus will separate the sheep from the goats, the true Christians from the non-Christians. Those who are on his left, which he calls the goats, will go away into “everlasting” punishment.

 

Revelation 20:10-15

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, From whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire".

 

...but yet it seems that you people say that Jesus was God.. isnt that a degrading thought.. to give human characteristics to "God"..

You need to know and understand what this subject is talked about in the Bible.

 

All over the old testement it has prophacies of the events of Christ. Jesus was God..fully God, and fully man..God has three parts, but these three seperate parts are all togeather one..and each one is fully God..Jesus was not only a Prophet, in fact he wasn't.

 

The Bible states that Jesus was God, Jesus made that clear..it is not degrading to consider him God..God the Son who came down to earth as a physical man who suffered all the pain of a physical man, but he was without sin (which was also necesary for a perfect sacrifice, God did not have any other human sacrifice given besides Jesus)

[Boerseun]

God is love, that is why he sent his son to die...if he didn't do that, then we would be lost.

This is inconsistent, self-contradictory and propagated through humans who need to form a picture in their minds of what the Ultimate Sacrifice should be. Any Omnipotent Being will tell you that to nail your own flesh-and-blood offspring to a piece of timber, will have absolutely no effect on anything, except for maybe the temperament of the individual getting nailed. If God is love, He won't kill His own son, even if only for the sake of consistency.

 

It is not God that throws us into Hell, it is ourselves that do that..but it is only Jesus that saves us from hell.

I do know quite a lot of Jews and Muslims (all Abraham's kids, they all believe in the SAME God) who'll seriously differ from you in this statement.

Religion is a moneymaking racket, and the only way to keep the cash coming in, is to proclaim from the highest mountain you can get that your, and ONLY your religion is the One True Faith, and all other people are wrong. I therefore discount ALL religions as erroneous, and a failure of logic and an easy escape for those who want solace and fail to come to terms with the reality of This World, and This Universe - to the exclusion of any other whimsical fairy-tale Hereafter which somehow exists but "somewhere else".

 

 

For one, the prophecy of Christ Jesus was revealed to early mankind, even to Adam, after God made for them garments out of skin from animals. The making garments for Adam and Eve from animal skins can, and I believe where a representation to them of what blood sacrifice does for ones sinfull state, and what will happen when Jesus died. Before Jesus, the remedy for sin was only threw animal blood sacrifice, and obeying God's laws..also, you had to be a Hebrew..if one did not do this, then he/she was hopeless.

It didn't work then, sure as Hell won't work now. Come on - animal sacrifice? That was probably also a human invention, seeing as paying with your life is the highest price you can pay. But now they kill poor animals for their (the humans) *sinful* nature, which is also just a manifestation of psychological projection. Was Jesus's death also a case of mass projection?

 

this was what they had to do until Jesus came, of course they never heard of Jesus, Christianity didn't start untill like 30 AD when Jesus fullfilled all of the prophecies.

Scientology didn't start until the 50's/60's of the previous century, and natives in Bora Bora still haven't heard of L. Ron Hubbard. Who, by the way, made a bet with a friend of his that the only way to make money is to start a religion. The bet was that he'll start his own religion within ten years. At the time of the bet he was a well-established science fiction writer, and he won his bet. Today, there are scientology centres in almost every country in the world (except Bora Bora, maybe) and the dough keeps rolling in. What (and personally, I think Scientology ludicrous) is wrong with Scientology, compared to Christianity? They've also got a Book?

 

John 3:16 is a good verse for this. I believe that those who have never herd the gospel in their lifetime, they may get that choice to eather accept it or reject it..but it also says if they look at creation (such as the stars) it will leave no excuse for them to believe that there is a God, and that he is good.

That's about the depth of cosmic insight to be expected from an individual who wrote those lines around the time of the Romans. You should also keep in mind that the individual who wrote that, had no idea that the world stretched any further than Europe, the Mediterranean, the Nile Delta and the mid-East/Persia. What he knew about stellar composition would always invoke a God to explain the inexplicable.

 

I also believe that if you search for the truth with a wanting mind, God will show it to you..no matter if you are in the busy city or the bush in Africa.

This is probably the only line in your post I agree with. If you search for the Truth with a wanting mind, you'll probably allways find God. On the other hand - if you search for the Truth with at least an adequate mind, you might just find science.

 

These are a few verses suporting an eternal Judgment in Hell...

I have not included the verses - my post will get too long. If you want to read it, refer to eMTee's post I'm quoting.

 

That's my point, see. Here we have two Christians debating on something so fundemental to the Christian Faith as Hell, the antithesis to Heaven - and they both get to prove their sides of the story using Scripture! It is being said that Hell is an adaptation from mythical Greek culture, with Hades being almost identical to the popular idea Christians have of Hell. Which is probably the case - no religion is an island, after all.

But if you get to disagree on something so close to the core of a faith, how much value should we attach to any individual claiming to be faithful? He/she can only be faithful in their own subjective way, and makes it impossible for them to judge anybody else objectively.

How much value should we attach to the Bible, which can be used to contradict itself, as above?

 

Do you know the Bible, and do you understand what it's pointing out on this subject?

I think I'm slowly starting to get an idea, eMTee. I'm starting to see the light now:

The Bible is a form of unquestionable authority used by individuals any which way they like. Apartheid was justified with the Bible. I kid you not. Today, democracy is being defended using the Bible. If you ask me "if I understand...", you're asking me if I understand your subjective interpretation. Which I don't. Which is why people like Billy Graham start their own churches: to inform other people about their subjective insights into an ancient text thats been almost unrecognisably translated in exchange for the money in their pockets, using guilt as a lever to suck them dry.

 

All over the old testement it has prophacies of the events of Christ. Jesus was God..fully God, and fully man..God has three parts, but these three seperate parts are all togeather one..and each one is fully God..Jesus was not only a Prophet, in fact he wasn't.

Once again - there's a fair amount of Jews and Muslims in disagreement with you. Why do you assume you are right? You can claim the authority of the Bible to prove your point, but so can the Muslim whip out his Q'uran, and the Jew can whip out his Torah. You can't even go by the chronological authority Christendom has over Islam, 'cause then the Jews would win hands down.

 

The Bible states that Jesus was God, Jesus made that clear..it is not degrading to consider him God..God the Son who came down to earth as a physical man who suffered all the pain of a physical man, but he was without sin (which was also necesary for a perfect sacrifice, God did not have any other human sacrifice given besides Jesus)

The Bible can state whatever it wants to - and you can interpret it any which way. The reason "God the Son" came down in physical form, is probably that he was just a man in physical form - albeit a very charismatic man. And, years and years later the myth and the legend surrounding this man grew.

[Southtown]

Welcome to the forum, I think you will trigger some nice discussions.

Hehehe :sad: Thanx

 

Are you numbering yourself with the Christians? Or with the Jews? Because neither are starting wars with Islam.

And what is Bush doing? Isn't he pushing to war with the islam using also so-called cristian values? Yes, obviously there is no christian aggregation which says we are going to war with the islam, but some people use some christian values for excuse.

I think we'll go a round or two about Iraq, judging from your sig. :hihi: But here I'll keep it quick.

 

Bush isn't at war directly with Islam, no. Bush's war is against "terrorists and those who harbor them." Islam is not normally a religion that kills non-believers, but the Jihad or extremists would have everyone believing differently. The terrorists are misleading regular Islamics into hating Jews and Christians, and hence America and Israel, by twisting their religion. The reason I think is that dictators pay these goons to sway the opinions of citizens, to gain support in attacking other countries, namely ours.

 

So the first problem that Bush is running into in combating the attacks against us and Israel is the lying extremists who gain support of the citizens through misrepresenting their religion (and through lack of education.) The second problem is that money corrupts officials all the way up the ladder. These malicious dictators therefore control most of the eastern political officials, including the U.N., with oil. These two corruptions of justice help to remove all opposition to the greedy quest of third-world dictators for more money, land, and power. The answer to both problems is values, honesty to be specific, political honesty and religious honesty.

 

This thread involves religious honesty very deeply, because one needs to know the truth about a religion to either criticize it or participate in it. The written religion and the way people choose to use it are two very different things. We must be wary of forming opinions about Christianity by observing the words and actions people who call themselves Christians.

 

The same goes for other religions or anything else in life. You can't criticize diamonds if you're looking at a cubic zirconia. You first have to know about diamonds so you can verify what you're looking at as a diamond. Only then can you critique it.

 

Why do you say the world hates god's people? Already there are more believers and pseudo belivers (the ones who do just for not standing out) than non-believers; so your concept of world is quite strange.

"God's people" doesn't automatically include everyone who calls themselves Christian, but those who hold faithfully to the true meaning of the written word as best as their mortal minds will allow. That quality alone will dwindle the count dramatically, and also provide a catalyst for conflict with the rest of the world... values.

 

Why should I hate you, if I just think you are not strong enough to live a life without an illusion of something protecting/looking on/responsible (or whatever) you, without a so called god? I do not hate any believer, I respect them with their strengths and weaknesses and in my (enphatise my) view of the world, believing is an (intellectual) weakness...it's so comfortable to believe....

Not having the same view doesn't imply hate!

The world doesn't hate Christians, per se, it hates the values that Christians hold to (if they are indeed faithful to the word.) And being Christian is not comfortable. To me it feels more like going to war, complete with butterflies, especially when being addressed as a fraud or delusional.

 

I once thought as you do, that God was an illusion created by a mind that needs answers. But if a Holy Spirit were in me would I not know it? If He weren't in me would I not doubt? I know He is in me because I feel Him, like you would feel the effects of a drug from your toes to fingers, not all the time but definitely when I'm spreading the message, facing tough times, or just praying and meditating. The Spirit is usually accompanied by a calm peace which gives me needed resolve/strength or by insightful wisdom into an issue I'm not clear on (or never thought about.)

 

I decided to give Christianity a try and began praying and searching when I was 20 and trying to get clean and sober, and other than the Holy Spirit God's been gradually changing me for the better for almost 10 years now. Not changing my circumstances, mind you, but changing me. He gives me wisdom, and strength, and peace. These are what convinces me, not the experiences or ideas of someone else. I looked for the truth myself, and I found it.

 

For a person who believes in a God.. wouldnt you make him divine in everyway.. but yet it seems that you people say that Jesus was God.. isnt that a degrading thought.. to give human characteristics to "God"..

basically you guys are referring his creations to him.. which is basically what hindu's do.. they pray to rocks.. you pray to a human.. you both pray to creations.. (if you would put it in a point of view in believing in a God)

Very good point, indeed. That is a big problem. Some do not believe that Jesus is the Son of God, an eternal being who was only made human to save mankind and then be crowned with authority over all creation. If they are truly Christian they will believe the bible when it says such. I agree it is absurd to worship creations rather than the Creator. I wish everyone would take that advice.

 

Oh yeah.. and Many muslims lived in Isreal/Palestine.. then one day some people came and kicked them out.. you know how i know.. i actualy know people who were forced out.. and people's grandparents.. who were living life normally then kicked out.. because some jewish people wanted to live in that Land again..

From what I read, when the boundaries were drawn by Britain after WWII (not WWI sorry,) both religions were in both countries. The Palestinian government then offered the Muslims in Israel bounty and property if they moved out of the way of their invasion. So the Muslims that agreed lost their homes. When Palestine didn't succeed in conquering Israel, those Muslims weren't allowed back into their Israeli homes nor were they accepted well in Palestine. They basically became refugees, and I'm sure the Palestinian government blamed Israel for their plight. Read "The Arab/Israeli Conflict: Historical Fact versus Fallacy" by Gary Frazier.

 

I am sorry we have a disagreement.

Don't be sorry dude. :( It's good and brings productive discussion.

 

What about Abraham? Or David? Or the prophets? They never heard of Jesus. Abraham believed in God and it was accouted to him as righteousness.

For one, the prophecy of Christ Jesus was revealed to early mankind, even to Adam, after God made for them garments out of skin from animals. The making garments for Adam and Eve from animal skins can, and I believe where a representation to them of what blood sacrifice does for ones sinfull state, and what will happen when Jesus died.

They believed God when He said He had a plan, correct. They didn't have nor did they need any specifics (although He did give some hints as prophecies.) And the pre-Jesus Jews weren't saved by their lineage, their sacrifices, or their keeping the law. Salvation was always by faith, and those who believed God did these things that God requested out of faith that He would save them. (Romans 4:1-5; Galatians 3:6-8; James 2:19-26)

 

Jews just assumed their sacrifices and laws made for salvation. The Jewish lineage, traditions, and commandments were instilled by God to provide a holy ancestory for the Son of God to be born by the Holy Spirit through a virgin, for the forgiveness of the whole world. Jesus was always the means of redemption for everyone who ever lived, and God's plan has never excluded anyone.

 

By believing God, the Jews kept their lineage pure and made a way for a pure Savior (of everyone) to be born into the world who could keep the law and commandments thereby staying pure to claim the promises of God for humanity by fulfilling the first covenent. Then Jesus gave His life for us so that we could share in those promises. Much confusion surrounds this distinction between Israel and salvation.

 

John 3:16 is a good verse for this. I believe that those who have never herd the gospel in their lifetime, they may get that choice to eather accept it or reject it..but it also says if they look at creation (such as the stars) it will leave no excuse for them to believe that there is a God, and that he is good. I also believe that if you search for the truth with a wanting mind, God will show it to you..no matter if you are in the busy city or the bush in Africa.

I can't claim to know how God will judge the ignorant, but since He's all-knowing and perfect in righteousness and justice, everything will be just fine. (Romans 2:12-15)

 

Mark 9:43-48 "...into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched..."

Matthew 25:46 “...shall go away into everlasting punishment..."

Revelation 14:11 “And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night”.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 “...shall be punished with everlasting destruction..."

Matthew 25:41-46 “...into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels...shall go away into everlasting punishment...will go away into “everlasting” punishment."

Revelation 20:10-15 "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever...and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire".

Notice first the Revelation 20 quote. Now the devil (who is an angel) and his angels are immortal and will burn for ever. This does not refer to humans. The angels are also the ones "who have no rest day or night" in Revelation 14. The humans, after being judged, are simply "cast into the lake of fire." It doesn't say they will also burn forever.

 

Next, the Matthew 25 quotes, yes you duped one. "Everlasting punishment" doesn't have to be perpetual punishment. So this verse could support my view also, if the effect of hell last forever, which is destruction.

 

Finally, the same applies to 1 Thessalonians 1. "Everlasting destruction" doesn't necessarily indicate perpetual destruction, but only a permanent destruction. What does destruction mean anyways? Gone, poof, goodbye. And why is the lake of fire called "the second death" if you live on in it forever?

 

By the way, Matthew 25:31-46 may be the judgement of those who never hear the gospel. Hmmm, on the trail...

 

God is love, that is why he sent his son to die...if he didn't do that, then we would be lost.

This is inconsistent, self-contradictory and propagated through humans who need to form a picture in their minds of what the Ultimate Sacrifice should be. Any Omnipotent Being will tell you that to nail your own flesh-and-blood offspring to a piece of timber, will have absolutely no effect on anything, except for maybe the temperament of the individual getting nailed. If God is love, He won't kill His own son, even if only for the sake of consistency.

Just because God is love doesn't mean He can allow injustice. A just God will not wink at any wrong doing, and therefore retribution must be dealt to someone for every sin. In which case, a loving God would surely provide a way for humans to escape this punishment. The more severe the means for providing that way, the greater the love He has for us.

 

That's my point, see. Here we have two Christians debating on something so fundemental to the Christian Faith as Hell, the antithesis to Heaven - and they both get to prove their sides of the story using Scripture! It is being said that Hell is an adaptation from mythical Greek culture, with Hades being almost identical to the popular idea Christians have of Hell. Which is probably the case - no religion is an island, after all.

But if you get to disagree on something so close to the core of a faith, how much value should we attach to any individual claiming to be faithful? He/she can only be faithful in their own subjective way, and makes it impossible for them to judge anybody else objectively.

How much value should we attach to the Bible, which can be used to contradict itself, as above?

Sorry to skip most of your post, but I'll let eMTee (pronounced eetme?) talk for himself.

 

A debate doesn't necessarily mean a lack of resolution. We have two people trying to help each other interpret something which you know little about. And when you use us as an excuse not to investigate on your own, you're only hurting yourself and your credibility in the argument. You will never understand the ideal by studying those who attempt to reach it.

 

And the disagreements among believers are also caused by ignorance caused by prejudice. Christians have varying ideas because word-of-mouth doctrine isn't always verified by scripture, therefore interpretations are "read into" the bible that people learned elsewhere. Then people get bull-headed and decide to defend their beliefs to the end instead of rethinking things and verifying them with scripture.

 

In the early church, Christians lived in Rome (think Greek mythology) and myths such as "hell being the anti-thesis of heaven" were everywhere. Rather than sticking to the word, people got lazy and just accepted what they heard, changing the doctrine gradually. (The preacher/audience method doesn't help, either. It is one-way communication.) Thankfully, the word hasn't changed because some commonly held beliefs are obviously not in there.

 

In reality there is no eternal balance between good and evil, light and darkness, no ying and yang. That is the twisted reasoning of a non-omniscient human mind in an attempt to justify a mysteriously imperfect (and seemingly perpetual) reality. When was the last time you opened a closet and darkness spilled out into and darkened a well-lit room?

 

After this world is destroyed by corruption and violence, God will make another one, but that one will be perfect, only this time Lucifer the deceiver won't be allowed in it. And the people who refused salvation or refused to seek it will be eradicated. Then God will make a new heaven (or cosmos) and a new earth and the saved will be transformed. And things will again be perfect as they were before, and God can live here with us without torching our sinful asses by His fiery presence. Isaiah 5:24; Obadiah 1:17-18; Malachi 4:1-3; Matthew 10:28; Romans 2:7; 1 Corinthians 15:53-54; 1 Timothy 6:13-16; 2 Timothy 1:10; 2 Peter 2:12

 

People aren't being torched now either, they're asleep in the grave awaiting the resurrection and judgement. This is all in the bible, too, if you read it. That is the topic of this thread, after all, those who cling to or talk about a religion without regarding the book that it comes from.

[eMTee]

If Hell was only for a time, then where would they go afterword, how long would it be?

 

And why would God take the time so mention things, like worms that never die? We all have eternal beings, and an eternal Hell to fit it

 

I am a Bible believing Christiaan, who takes the Bible in it's entirety, just incase you are getting a notion that I don't take the whole Bible as true.

[adnaan]

Well. i guess im just gonna have to break it to you..

 

Well in the bible it specifically says to 'not' worship jesus.. and to worship 'God' himself.. and if you were to worship Jesus. bascically he would say "I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!"

Follow the Bible properly...if you were to follow it... now ill show you the verse...

 

... Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father (my GOD) who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord,' did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles? Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' (Matthew 7:13-14, 7:21-23)"

 

Jesus and God are not the same people.. because why would Jesus call someone an evil doer, if they were to prophesy in his name...?

[Fishteacher73]

I'm sorry, but I guess I'lll be the one that has to break it to you....

It depends on what brand of Chritianity you are talking about [i know yours is the only [i]real[/i] Chistianity]. There are some that separate out the trinity, some that solidify it, and some that split into a 2vs1.

[eMTee]

Well. i guess im just gonna have to break it to you..

 

Well in the bible it specifically says to 'not' worship jesus.. and to worship 'God' himself.. and if you were to worship Jesus. bascically he would say "I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!"

Follow the Bible properly...if you were to follow it... now ill show you the verse...

 

... Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father (my GOD) who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord,' did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles? Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' (Matthew 7:13-14, 7:21-23)"

 

Jesus and God are not the same people.. because why would Jesus call someone an evil doer, if they were to prophesy in his name...?

I see that you totaly misunderstand these verses.

 

... Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father (my GOD) who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord,' did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles? Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' (Matthew 7:13-14, 7:21-23)"

 

This is the time of the final judgment, when God is on the throne Judging every man seperately.

 

Many will say "But Lord, look at what all we did for you" these people have done great things, but does that matter if they failed to do the only thing that God desired them to do, Jesus is the only way..and the only way you can come to the Father is threw Jesus, This is God's will. Do you not know that salvation is threw faith and not by works lest anyone should boast.. These people have decided to place their faith in works rather than in Christ, thus they will wil not enter into the kingdom of Heaven. And works will be the main foundation for most people, because they refuse or niglect the importence of the death,burial and reserection of christ..so few will be accepted.

 

I notice that you circly "my God".. it is "my Father"

 

I'm sorry that I leave you with such a shallow explaination of this passage..I will return with a deeper one.

[Boerseun]

Thanks, Fish - well put.

 

Do you like Cola? Then what's your brand - Coke or Pepsi? You can dig the one and dis the other one, and still be a Cola drinker.

 

Your different interpretations of the Matthew verse cited above, just proves my point - every interpretation of Christianity, be it Pentecostal, Seventh-day Adventists, Anglican, or even Pent-up Testecosticals, is subjective, and therefore under suspicion of being a sham to start with.

[adnaan]

Why do you guys call God a 'Father' i dont get that... and i dont really like it.. because it doesnt really make any sense... again like i said before isnt God supposedly divine... and there is supposed to be no other diety like him.. then you guys call him a Father... and say GOD had a son.. giving God some human characteristics and associating partners with him..

 

eMTee.. you say Jesus and God are 1, but yet for some reason they act like they are 2.. because you always find that Jesus in the Bible always prays for the healing miracles that he performs... he always asks for help.. and he suffers on the cross??? hes a GOD he shouldnt feel pain!! right? it all doesnt make sense.. and i dont think anything should be that confusing..

 

You say that you believe in every word of the bible.. well the bible has been modernized and translated countlessly, and there are hundreds of different bibles... and my questions is how can christians possibly say that it has not changed ever, and its fully the word of God? and who is King James..? give me a last name.. some gay people sat that King James was GAy?

 

If you say that it says in the Bible that if someone changes the bible they will feel his wrath then how about the translation of the Bible.. I am guessing you can change that without feeling any wrath... because really it isnt the bible because it has different wording.. "modernized" wording..

[Harzburgite]

Why do you guys call God a 'Father' i dont get that.....

Christianity is a patriarchal religion: it sees power as vested in men, not women. There is some evidence that early religions and cultures may have been matriarchal, but Judaism and Christianity are decidedly not. In a patriarchal society the father is the sole power in the family. It is probably difficult for someone born in the west in the late 20th century to appreciate the extent and acceptance of that power. Above each family the king was seen as being the father of the country: responsible for its citizens, deciding on their behalf. It was quite natural to assume a similar, divine level above kings. All quite logical.

you say Jesus and God are 1, but yet for some reason they act like they are 2.. ..

Try three, there is also the Holy Ghost, giving us the divine trinity. Historically this reflects the move from polytheism (believing in many gods) to monotheism. If it helps to put it in modern terms think of it as multi-tasking on a computer..

and he suffers on the cross??? hes a GOD he shouldnt feel pain!! right? it all doesnt make sense.. and i dont think anything should be that confusing....

He chose to feel pain, to suffer for us.

You say that you believe in every word of the bible.. well the bible has been modernized and translated countlessly, and there are hundreds of different bibles... and my questions is how can christians possibly say that it has not changed ever, and its fully the word of God?

Biblical scholars have access to the early texts in the original languages and can evaluate subtelties of meaning.

and who is King James..? give me a last name.. some gay people sat that King James was GAy?..

King James the 1st of England and 6th of Scotland. You can read how the translation that carries his name came to be here:

http://www.av1611.org/kjv/kjvhist.html

I'm reasonably sure he wasn't gay, but if he was I don't see the relevance.

[adnaan]

he choose to feel pain... :xx:

 

I really dont understand that at all.. if you say he is a God.. then he created pain.. and to feel something he created..

I will put it this way.. lets say "God" created a Rock.. that was too big for him to carry himself.

Thats basically what your saying.. he created pain.. and felt the pain.. that is confusing..

[sanctus]

Soutdown, your answer about war against islam and vice-versa is very consistent, but doesn't deny what I said there is people who use christian values to say that islamic countries are evil and vice-versa.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I once thought as you do, that God was an illusion created by a mind that needs answers. But if a Holy Spirit were in me would I not know it? If He weren't in me would I not doubt? I know He is in me because I feel Him, like you would feel the effects of a drug from your toes to fingers, not all the time but definitely when I'm spreading the message, facing tough times, or just praying and meditating. The Spirit is usually accompanied by a calm peace which gives me needed resolve/strength or by insightful wisdom into an issue I'm not clear on (or never thought about.)

 

 

As you brought it up, if you take LSD wouldn't it be possible to feel the holy spirit inside? Yes (maybe with another drug). But this doesn't prove its existence. Ask to some schizofrenics for example if they go eat out once a week with jesus, I'm sure you will find heaps (at least those without medicaments) which answer you positively.

The calm you describe can as well just be due to concentration.