Does God exist?

[Grains]

Are you aware that electrodes can be attached to your skull and when given the correct frequency of magnetism you will have a religious experience? Oh yes, you will see or feel the presence of god, if you are religious that is, if you are more science minded you tend to see and feel aliens, some people see or feel elves or fairies. Does that give you pause to think or do you just dismiss that as nonsense?

 

Are you aware that if I stick a stick up somebody's *** and you are more religious you feel like somebody is raping you but if I stick a stick up your *** and you homosexual it will feel good.

 

I probably will get banned for this but it was the only example I could come up with. Cheers if I do.

[Moontanman]

Are you aware that if I stick a stick up somebody's *** and you are more religious you feel like somebody is raping you but if I stick a stick up your *** and you homosexual it will feel good.

 

I probably will get banned for this but it was the only example I could come up with. Cheers if I do.

 

Way to go Grains, I ask you a serious question and you reply with some nonsense about raping a man with a stick. I had a friend who was gay, and he was lured into the woods by several heterosexual men and raped with a stick and killed by them. I guess he enjoyed it too.

[Grains]

Way to go Grains, I ask you a serious question and you reply with some nonsense about raping a man with a stick. I had a friend who was gay, and he was lured into the woods by several heterosexual men and raped with a stick and killed by them. I guess he enjoyed it too.

 

I have friends who are gay to and I seen no correlation to my post. You are assuming at that point. How you do you know I am not a gay? It was an example and that was all and you are turning it into politics. It was an example to show you how ridiculous I felt your study is and I could bring in "what if's: just like you did with my study. SCIENCE DOES NOT DEFINE EVERYTHING! I have brought out some true feelings I believe do not belong to science.

[Moontanman]

I have friends who are gay to and I seen no correlation to my post. You are assuming at that point. How you do you know I am not a gay? It was an example and that was all and you are turning it into politics. It was an example to show you how ridiculous I felt your study is and I could bring in "what if's: just like you did with my study. SCIENCE DOES NOT DEFINE EVERYTHING! I have brought out some true feelings I believe do not belong to science.

 

What you said was sadistic, horrific, and inexcusable. I wonder what you gay friends would say if they knew you were so insensitive. I figured you weren't gay since you mentioned your wife in another post and seeing how you are so religious and the men who killed my friend all those years ago were all good members of the Church and were just doing gods work (yes they testified to that in court) I didn't think what I said was out of bounds at all. Science does indeed strive to define everything with in the natural realm. and what I said is true, electrodes can indeed cause you to have a religious experience, your hostility to the concept shows you may have some doubts of your own. but your disbelief or belief for that matter will never change the truth.

[Buffy]

Buffy I find it quite insulting that you would think I haven't experienced anything in my life that would cause me to work through my belief in God.

Well, really I was asking the question, not making accusations, although your previous answer would in absence of any other information lead one to believe that it might be a possible conclusion, but I'll apologize if I made you feel that way.

There are just no particular moments or examples that I wish to share nor care to share with complete strangers especially people who would call it unscientific, ask for proof, probably laugh, and ridicule my very responses that make up my inner self and what I have been through in life.

You don't really need to get very personal, the question here is about the basic, abstract elements that reinforce belief in a deity.

 

As an example, my own beliefs are quite far out on the edge of Paganism and Naturalism with my concept of God being the "Girl that Pushed The Button." Science provides some interesting starting points of conjecture (interestingly edging over into your separate train of thought on the Big Bang), starting with Copenhagen vs. Many Worlds. One way to interpret Copenhagen is the notion of initial conditions being "set" which while entirely unprovable and with *many* alternative and less anthro-centric interpretations. I like to think this way both because its an "easier" interpretation, and it has explanatory power (not the way that most people think: I believe God doesn't care about *us* at all, its the Universe that's important).

 

My affirmations of "faith" come from the holiday season and the way everyone is nicer to each other when we get in the "Christmas Spirit" which is why, as folks around here well know, I say "I believe in Santa Claus and the Pesach Bunny." Why? I feel it in the uplifting of my spirits when my kid rips open her Christmas and Hanukkah presents, and we go down to the Temple and teach homeless folks how to sew. Now I can also look at those things as being part of the Evolution of the human mind and society, but I *feel* like there's something in the way the Universe works that makes us have that feeling. Physics? Number Theory? Chaos? God's vibes? Sure, could be any of those, I don't know.

 

So, the interesting thing for me is what it is that others who have profoundly different *beliefs* than I do, think or experience or feel that creates such disharmony and resentment:

Science cannot define my mind and it never will not matter how many great arguments are made on this thread at 127.0.1.1. To many things in life are just to big for science. Therefore I am just going to concede to your point as I will not share that here.

 

The core of the argument in this thread really comes down to people talking right past one another: You're making a statement of *faith* that requires no proof for *you*, which by itself many would have no problem with. The problem is that this being a science forum you open yourself to attack by stepping from "I believe God exists" to "God Exists" which in a scientific context is *assumed*, you do end up being asked to provide scientifically acceptable proof, which in the winding road of the last few pages kind of popped out of your interactions with the gang.

 

But take a close look at what I've written: I'm very careful to point out where Science ends and my Beliefs begin. Why? Because Science is an unending process of defining and proving what really does exist, and belief is *personal* and *unprovable*, thus by trying to make *others* accept ones own beliefs, one will encounter resistance no matter whether they are "believers" in other incompatible faiths or those without faith who rightly see it as forcing Science to "accept" that which is not Scientific.

 

Painful trek into a misunderstanding of terminology, but useful nonetheless.

 

So back to my question: there are Theological foundations for the belief in God which are germane, and even to those who view belief purely as a sociological phenomenon, there are useful insights into the human psyche to be "divined" from these beliefs.

 

My own beliefs happen to be highly compatible with current scientific knowledge and the Scientific Method, and while they can be the subject of ridicule--one test of faith--I find them both consistent with the world as I experience it as well as useful to my well-being and mental health: heck, I pray from time to time, and find reassurance in that tree we dress up and the Afikomen that we hunt for.

 

See? Not so hard. Now you try!

 

How comes this gentle concord in the world, that hatred is so far from jealousy, to sleep by hate, and fear no enmity? :phones:

Buffy

[Grains]

What you said was sadistic, horrific, and inexcusable. I wonder what you gay friends would say if they knew you were so insensitive. I figured you weren't gay since you mentioned your wife in another post and seeing how you are so religious and the men who killed my friend all those years ago were all good members of the Church and were just doing gods work (yes they testified to that in court) I didn't think what I said was out of bounds at all. Science does indeed strive to define everything with in the natural realm. and what I said is true, electrodes can indeed cause you to have a religious experience, your hostility to the concept shows you may have some doubts of your own. but your disbelief or belief for that matter will never change the truth.

 

I will show this post to a very dear friend of mind who I work with tomorrow and see what he thinks. As I have known him for 3 years and we comically go back and forth with each other, he will say ill shove a stick up your *** fu****. He will laughl. Their is no hostility in my post whatsoever. Obviously, I have just come to more of a social norm that it does exist and I except it. I think having the attitude you are bringing to the table only makes the behavior more unjust. And I find it quite offensive that you tied in people from Church who killed your friend and implied the comment towards me. How dare you throw me into that group. What have I done to deserve that. I believe that love has many forms and any God that would unexcept that is no god of mine so take that crap elsewhere. I find it filthy and disgusting that you would even tie in all people who believe in God and throw them under this group because it is not true, I have you know I have many gay friends who have been at their lowest moment and I helped them and they go to the church I attend today so don't get over zealous on me.

[Moontanman]

I will show this post to a very dear friend of mind who I work with tomorrow and see what he thinks. As I have known him for 3 years and we comically go back and forth with each other, he will say ill shove a stick up your *** fu****. He will laughl. Their is no hostility in my post whatsoever. Obviously, I have just come to more of a social norm that it does exist and I except it. I think having this attitude only makes the behavior more unjust. And I find it quite offensive that you tied in people from Church who killed your friend and implied the comment towards me. How dare you through me into that group. What have I done to deserve that. I believe that love has many forms and any God that would unexcept that is no god of mine so take that crap elsewhere. I find it filthy and disgusting that you would even tie in all people who believe in God and throw them under this group because it is not true, I have you know I have many gay friends who have been at their lowest moment and I helped them and they go to the church I attend today so don't get over zealous on me.

 

It's mighty white of you to feel that way Grains, I can joke with my friends about lots of things I would never say to someone who wasn't my friend much less someone I didn't even know. What you said was sadistic and horrific. I don't deserve that and neither does anyone else. I simply stated a fact and i wondered what your take on that was in reference to your belief in god. I heard lots of takes on that little tid bit of information but your response of raping a man with a stick was a first and far outside the bell curve. My response was the first thing that came to my mind as well. Possibly we both have different world views but i would never had used that particular metaphor, you using it shows some real deep seated hostility toward homosexuals. Only a person with such feelings would have said that to begin with.

[Grains]

It's mighty white of you to feel that way Grains, I can joke with my friends about lots of things I would never say to someone who wasn't my friend much less someone I didn't even know. What you said was sadistic and horrific. I don't deserve that and neither does anyone else. I simply stated a fact and i wondered what your take on that was in reference to your belief in god. I heard lots of takes on that little tid bit of information but your response of raping a man with a stick was a first and far outside the bell curve. My response was the first thing that came to my mind as well. Possibly we both have different world views but i would never had used that particular metaphor, you using it shows some real deep seated hostility toward homosexuals. Only a person with such feelings would have said that to begin with.

 

You are absolutely correct. I should not have used the metaphor. I will now be leaving these forums as I feel as I have posted something completely inappropriate and should have never been posted. I am therefore banning myself. I truly apologize but I guess I live in a different world which I think I do. I am very open, honest, and forthcoming with my friends and the more I think about it they would have said "Grains, I don't find inappropriate what you said, but the world stage does not know you, and no basis to know what kind of person you are to understand that" I bid you farewell and I am truly sorry, sincerely, I am very truly sorry and I should have not used that particular metaphor.I do leave that I have no hostility towards homosexuals. That is being very unfair to me as well.

 

I conclude, I really suck at threads!!!!

[Boerseun]

I think this is getting a bit off-topic and out of context.

 

Grains, don't take the admonishment about your analogy too serious, although it might have been in bad taste, I got the point you were trying to get accross.

 

But, also, try and understand the point we're trying to get across:

 

Why, in the absence of all evidence, are you so sure about God's existence?

 

Like Buffy said, we're really interested in the origins of the religious impulse, which seems to be standard issue to humans of all flavours and kinds. But what gives rise to it? You assert that God doesn't reside in the material world, and therefore science can't get a grasp on his nature. But then again, you presuppose the existence of a world outside the one we can probe, test and measure. Why? Not only do you have to prove the existence of God, you now have to somehow explain an entire alternative universe that exists in parallel to ours. The rabbit hole seems to become ever deeper.

 

You've got your belief. Great. You're here. If we can't probe God, at least we can attempt to probe you.

 

So, you say God exists. I say: "Why?"

[ryan2006]

God exists because everything is in motion; the physical and spiritual realms. God created the past, present and future:)

[Boerseun]

God exists because everything is in motion;

Inertia and energy transmission between colliding objects perfectly accounts for that. These also work according to perfectly sound mathematical principles and laws - science is all about deducting the maths behind reality. If you're talking about the Original Act that sent this chain of collisions in motion that ended up with where we are today, the Big Bang accounts for that. If you then want to know the origin of the Big Bang, I can't help you there - except maybe point out that if the Big Bang needed a cause or an origin, the same can be said about "God". Believers say "God created it!", to which I say "then who created God?". Using the Big Bang as proof of God's existence, merely proves the redundancy of the "God" concept.

the physical and spiritual realms.

There is but the atom, and the void. There is no such thing as a "spiritual realm". There is no evidence for it, and there is no profit in believing it. We can't continue a debate to make a valid point based on an unproven (and unprovable, in fact,) premise.

God created the past, present and future:)

The past is our collective memory of what was, what transpired to bring us to the point where we are now, which is the boundary between that and what's to come, the future. The future had not been created yet, the future is realised as the present, at the speed of exactly one second per second. Matter of fact, there is no such thing as the future. The future is merely a conjecture of the human mind. There is simply the present. The crossing of the one into the other is called the "flow of time". Time is a dimension. Saying that God created the past, present and future is the same as saying God created left. Left is in no need of a creator - it's a dimension.

[ryan2006]

Are you saying you are god?

[Boerseun]

Yes. And I saw that thing you did the other day. Sick, man.

[ryan2006]

what thing? Hey now God is my faith if you don't believe that you have a soul that's your thing.

[sanctus]

what thing? Hey now God is my faith if you don't believe that you have a soul that's your thing.

Yes Ryan, but this is a science forum so we want provable things, where is a proof in your post

God exists because everything is in motion; the physical and spiritual realms. God created the past, present and future

 

Try to prove things here and then you don't need to get upset. By the way Borseun was joking...

[C1ay]

God exists because everything is in motion; the physical and spiritual realms. God created the past, present and future:)

 

Prove it. There is ZERO evidence for God except for the fact that it is an ambiguously defined three letter word.

[sanctus]

Prove it. There is ZERO evidence for God except for the fact that it is an ambiguously defined three letter word.

...so ambiguously that some write with an uppercase and some wit a lowercase g!