modest Posted July 8, 2008 Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 Grains, If you believe in deism where god is outside the scope of science and outside the universe all together, then it is impossible for you to know that god. You are not special. Your feelings don't give you a special sense of what exists outside the universe. If there is something completely apart from the natural world then it is apart from you as well. ~modest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfiniteNow Posted July 8, 2008 Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 I never said it was real. Please show me where I said it was real. I said God I know to be true. What is the difference between you stating that god is real and you stating that the existence of god is true? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grains Posted July 8, 2008 Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 Grains, If you believe in deism where god is outside the scope of science and outside the universe all together, then it is impossible for you to know that god. You are not special. Your feelings don't give you a special sense of what exists outside the universe. If there is something completely apart from the natural world then it is apart from you as well. ~modest I understand the argument you guys are making it is just against my faith and can never-hold true. You say "You are not special" yet millions of others around me have the same faith I do (opened up for organized religion please lets not go down that road). You cannot define "apart from the natural world" so you cannot define laws for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfiniteNow Posted July 8, 2008 Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 Reality is not a democracy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modest Posted July 8, 2008 Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 I understand the argument you guys are making it is just against my faith and can never-hold true. You say "You are not special" yet millions of others around me have the same faith I do (opened up for organized religion please lets not go down that road). Don't worry, they're not special either. You cannot define "apart from the natural world" so you cannot define laws for it. That's my point - neither can you. When faced with the unknown why do people think it's better to make something up than face the fact that it's unknown? Turtles all the way down is better than no turtle at all, eh? I don't get it. ~modest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffy Posted July 8, 2008 Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 I understand the argument you guys are making it is just against my faith and can never-hold true. You say "You are not special" yet millions of others around me have the same faith I do (opened up for organized religion please lets not go down that road). You cannot define "apart from the natural world" so you cannot define laws for it.So trying to ignore for a moment the talking past one another about facts or proof, can you describe why you believe there is a God? Is it based mostly on what this quote seems to imply that you believe it because lots of other people do? If its more or something else, what is it? He is their god: he leads them like a thing made by some other deity than nature, that shapes man better; and they follow him, against us brats, with no less confidence than boys pursuing summer butterflies, or butchers killing flies, :)Buffy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grains Posted July 8, 2008 Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 Don't worry, they're not special either. That's my point - neither can you. When faced with the unknown why do people think it's better to make something up than face the fact that it's unknown? Turtles all the way down is better than no turtle at all, eh? I don't get it. ~modestI guess that is the difference and I don't know how else to say it and I assume you guys have no way else to say it to me. I am not making it up. You feel that I am. I know I am not. It's just one of those things unexplainable by science, rules, and laws. I know you cannot except that and I have not asked you to, or at least meant to ask you to. I have also learned to stick to one thread per one topic (somebody told me to move to another thread) it really through me off in my post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grains Posted July 8, 2008 Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 So trying to ignore for a moment the talking past one another about facts or proof, can you describe why you believe there is a God? Is it based mostly on what this quote seems to imply that you believe it because lots of other people do? If its more or something else, what is it? He is their god: he leads them like a thing made by some other deity than nature, that shapes man better; and they follow him, against us brats, with no less confidence than boys pursuing summer butterflies, or butchers killing flies, :)Buffy Primarily based on the fact that god exist outside the material world. That was my original point. That whole other thing regarding others was just in regards to modest calling me special, nothing else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted July 8, 2008 Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 I understand the argument you guys are making it is just against my faith and can never-hold true. You say "You are not special" yet millions of others around me have the same faith I do (opened up for organized religion please lets not go down that road). You cannot define "apart from the natural world" so you cannot define laws for it. I guess it would be just as true to say "eat excrement, a billion flys cannot be wrong!" Numbers of believers have no bearing on the truth of anything. If your god is the god of Abraham then you are taking a back seat to the god or gods that have more believers than your god does. Numbers of believers doesn't prove anything if it did all it would prove is that you are wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grains Posted July 8, 2008 Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 I guess it would be just as true to say "eat excrement, a billion flys cannot be wrong!" Numbers of believers have no bearing on the truth of anything. If your god is the god of Abraham then you are taking a back seat to the god or gods that have more believers than your god does. Numbers of believers doesn't prove anything if it did all it would prove is that you are wrong. You are correct! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffy Posted July 8, 2008 Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 Primarily based on the fact that god exist outside the material world.Maybe I wasn't clear enough: my question is *why* you believe that "god exists outside the material world." Is there any reason at all? I'm not asking for proof or facts, just *why* you have come to this conclusion. More particulars must justify my knowledge, :)Buffy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grains Posted July 8, 2008 Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 Maybe I wasn't clear enough: my question is *why* you believe that "god exists outside the material world." Is there any reason at all? I'm not asking for proof or facts, just *why* you have come to this conclusion. More particulars must justify my knowledge, :)Buffy I could never explain to you why as it would not make since to you. I tried making this point earlier. As I could never understand why one could not believe in God and you could never understand why someone could believe in god I cannot explain. If that is not good enough I don't know how else to post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffy Posted July 8, 2008 Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 I could never explain to you why as it would not make since to you. I tried making this point earlier. As I could never understand why one could not believe in God and you could never understand why someone could believe in god I cannot explain. If that is not good enough I don't know how else to post.Now you're making assumptions about my beliefs! :) This is the Theology Forum and thus there is leeway (believe it or not) to describe your beliefs here because many of us are trying to understand the source of faith. One of the foundations of many religions is the notion of "tests of faith" and if your reason for believing in God is solely "always have, don't understand why you wouldn't" that would put you in an extremely small minority of believers! In fact it would raise the suspicions of most believers that you've never really proven that you believe! Have you never experienced anything in your life that would cause you to work through your belief in God more completely to reaffirm your faith in your own mind? Faith, I saw it not; but I felt it hot in her breath, :)Buffy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grains Posted July 8, 2008 Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 Now you're making assumptions about my beliefs! :) This is the Theology Forum and thus there is leeway (believe it or not) to describe your beliefs here because many of us are trying to understand the source of faith. One of the foundations of many religions is the notion of "tests of faith" and if your reason for believing in God is solely "always have, don't understand why you wouldn't" that would put you in an extremely small minority of believers! In fact it would raise the suspicions of most believers that you've never really proven that you believe! Have you never experienced anything in your life that would cause you to work through your belief in God more completely to reaffirm your faith in your own mind? Faith, I saw it not; but I felt it hot in her breath, :)Buffy Your right I was presumptuous without cause. Problem is when you have been posting for the past 3 hours and people are pulling me in ten different directions (threads) and you are new to forums you get a little edgy and confused, I am saving that for my new thread Marketing of the Forum. Buffy I find it quite insulting that you would think I haven't experienced anything in my life that would cause me to work through my belief in God. There are just no particular moments or examples that I wish to share nor care to share with complete strangers especially people who would call it unscientific, ask for proof, probably laugh, and ridicule my very responses that make up my inner self and what I have been through in life. Science cannot define my mind and it never will not matter how many great arguments are made on this thread at 127.0.1.1. To many things in life are just to big for science. Therefore I am just going to concede to your point as I will not share that here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfiniteNow Posted July 8, 2008 Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 Science cannot define my mind and it never will I take that you are not familiar with the amazing work being done in the field of neuroscience. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grains Posted July 8, 2008 Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 I take that you are not familiar with the amazing work being done in the field of neuroscience. :) Your right Infinatenow what was I thinking. How stupid for me to believe my thoughts belong to myself and my experiences are my own and science can explain everything. Lets drop things like the feeling of love, compassion, happiness. I would love an explanation as to why my first girlfriend sucked and the second one was the first love of my life. I am so glad we have stuff that can prove that now. I am so happy to know that their is a scientific explanation for it all and it makes all the since in the world now. Gosh mommy and daddy, I can't wait to be a robot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted July 8, 2008 Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 Science cannot define my mind and it never will not matter how many great arguments are made on this thread at 127.0.1.1. To many things in life are just to big for science. Therefore I am just going to concede to your point as I will not share that here. Are you aware that electrodes can be attached to your skull and when given the correct frequency of magnetism you will have a religious experience? Oh yes, you will see or feel the presence of god, if you are religious that is, if you are more science minded you tend to see and feel aliens, some people see or feel elves or fairies. Does that give you pause to think or do you just dismiss that as nonsense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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