REASON Posted July 7, 2008 Report Share Posted July 7, 2008 In reference to what comfort does it bring you there are no words that can explain the true feeling it gives me. When Nadal won Wimbeldon today he told the reporter he couldn't even begin to explain what he was feeling. When a scientist makes a breakthrough discovery after years and years of work no one else can feel how he feels. Him simply explaining how he feels with words. Explain happiness, sadness, loneliness, etc. I don't know how to explain this to you it's for me personally and could never be explained. I read this once and I think its a great explanation. Science is limited to the physical (material) world and therefore has no knowledge, function or authority outside those bounds. So all you're really saying is that you have a feeling that there is a god. A feeling you can't explain that therefore must be god. You can't explain the feeling, yet you know it is attributable to a relationship with god. That's quite a dichotomy isn't it? I think you want the feeling to be associated with god. That's a bit different than knowing it. The fact is, you don't know because you can't know. So you have chosen to believe. But believing is not knowing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grains Posted July 7, 2008 Report Share Posted July 7, 2008 So all you're really saying is that you have a feeling that there is a god. A feeling you can't explain that therefore must be god. You can't explain the feeling, yet you know it is attributable to a relationship with god. That's quite a dichotomy isn't it? I think you want the feeling to be associated with god. That's a bit different than knowing it. The fact is, you don't know because you can't know. So you have chosen to believe. But believing is not knowing. I never said feeling and never meant to imply feeling. I know he exist. I can know because I do know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbird Posted July 7, 2008 Report Share Posted July 7, 2008 Nor anyone else who chooses to live in reality and disengage from the ridiculous wish thinking which has stood in the way of our culture for far too long.Our culture ? what culture are you referring to ? and how is the way someone thinks standing in the way of this "culture" ? please explain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REASON Posted July 7, 2008 Report Share Posted July 7, 2008 I never said feeling and never meant to imply feeling. I know he exist. Of course you did. It's okay. You said. In reference to what comfort does it bring you there are no words that can explain the true feeling it gives me. When Nadal won Wimbeldon today he told the reporter he couldn't even begin to explain what he was feeling. When a scientist makes a breakthrough discovery after years and years of work no one else can feel how he feels. Him simply explaining how he feels with words. Explain happiness, sadness, loneliness, etc. I don't know how to explain this to you it's for me personally and could never be explained. I read this once and I think its a great explanation. Science is limited to the physical (material) world and therefore has no knowledge, function or authority outside those bounds. Many people, including some of my closest friends, have described a feeling similar to yours to explain their sense of knowing about god. It's really not unusual. But deciding that god exists because you have a feeling, or a sense, or some intuition, does not constitute knowing because it's altogether possible that your feelings are being misunderstood or misapplied. I can know because I do know. Sorry. That's just not good enough (for me anyway). You can't know. You just think you can. There's a distinct difference. It appears you are having difficulty distiguishing what you believe with what you know. Please explain how you know there is a god if it is not based on a feeling you have. Show me so I can know as well. What evidence do you have to offer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REASON Posted July 7, 2008 Report Share Posted July 7, 2008 Our culture ? what culture are you referring to ? and how is the way someone thinks standing in the way of this "culture" ? please explain. Here. Click on the link below and watch the video lecture by Sam Harris. He explains it very well. FORA.tv - The Clash Between Faith and Reason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grains Posted July 7, 2008 Report Share Posted July 7, 2008 Of course you did. It's okay. You said. Many people, including some of my closest friends, have described a feeling similar to yours to explain their sense of knowing about god. It's really not unusual. But deciding that god exists because you have a feeling, or a sense, or some intuition, does not constitute knowing because it's altogether possible that your feelings are being misunderstood or misapplied. Sorry. That's just not good enough (for me anyway). You can't know. You just think you can. There's a distinct difference. It appears you are having difficulty distiguishing what you believe with what you know. Please explain how you know there is a god if it is not based on a feeling you have. Show me so I can know as well. What evidence do you have to offer? :Exclamati Nice on the the feeling. I absolutely said it. I was trying to use the word feeling to kind of lead into the next few sentences because I was trying to relate it to feeling describing feeling with words. Nevermind, it was wrong on my part, bad analogies. I thought I made clear a few post ago that its faith and let me reiterate that it is. Sorry about that. I guess that is where the argument will always end. You believe I can't know and I know I do. I think I already covered the explanation part seeming it would be impossible for words to describe. As far as proof. If it proof you want I do not have "material" evidence to provide you. As such, god is outside the material world so it would be impossible to define/provide laws and definitions to God. I am sure that won't be good enough for you as you stated before but any further and I would be preaching. I am not here to preach and turn one to the thinking of mine. I stand by my faith and I also have no reason to prove it to you as that would be impossible considering you want material evidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfiniteNow Posted July 7, 2008 Report Share Posted July 7, 2008 Grains, Let me try a little something with you. I am going to use your words, but replace one of them. See how it sounds to you: In reference to what comfort do UNICORNS bring you there are no words that can explain the true feeling UNICORNS gives me. I know UNICORNS exist. I can know because I do know. You believe I can't know and I know I do. I think I already covered the explanation part seeming it would be impossible for words to describe. As far as proof. If it proof you want I do not have "material" evidence to provide you. As such, UNICORNS are outside the material world so it would be impossible to define/provide laws and definitions to UNICORNS . I am sure that won't be good enough for you as you stated before but any further and I would be preaching. I am not here to preach and turn one to the thinking of mine. I stand by my faith and I also have no reason to prove it to you as that would be impossible considering you want material evidence. Why should this idea of god be given any special acceptance when you don't do the same thing for UNICORNS ? Please note: UNICORNS can be replaced with The Tooth Fairy, Leprechauns, The Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, and countless other figments of the imagination. Also, feel free to replace with other gods, such as Zeus, Thor, Baal, Allah, Ishvara, and also... all of those others that nobody believes in anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grains Posted July 7, 2008 Report Share Posted July 7, 2008 Grains, Let me try a little something with you. I am going to use your words, but replace one of them. See how it sounds to you: In reference to what comfort do UNICORNS bring you there are no words that can explain the true feeling UNICORNS gives me. I know UNICORNS exist. I can know because I do know. You believe I can't know and I know I do. I think I already covered the explanation part seeming it would be impossible for words to describe. As far as proof. If it proof you want I do not have "material" evidence to provide you. As such, UNICORNS are outside the material world so it would be impossible to define/provide laws and definitions to UNICORNS . I am sure that won't be good enough for you as you stated before but any further and I would be preaching. I am not here to preach and turn one to the thinking of mine. I stand by my faith and I also have no reason to prove it to you as that would be impossible considering you want material evidence. Why should this idea of god be given any special acceptance when you don't do the same thing for UNICORNS ? Please note: UNICORNS can be replaced with The Tooth Fairy, Leprechauns, The Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, and countless other figments of the imagination. I understand your argument, I really do. The difference is that a unicorn carries physical material properties that would be identifiable to one. A unicorn is (been described/drawn/etc) as a horse with a horn in the middle of its head. Since I know the physical properties of a horse and a horn and others know this as well. Exploring the world around us we all could agree nobody has seen a unicorn therefore it is not in existence. God on the other hand, is not material therefore he differs from the unicorn. Cute example though! B) I just noticed you added all of those other things as well so it goes for all of them. Who says Santa Claus is not real? New thread! ::Exclamati Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfiniteNow Posted July 7, 2008 Report Share Posted July 7, 2008 The difference is that a unicorn carries physical material properties that would be identifiable to one. A unicorn is (been described/drawn/etc) as a horse with a horn in the middle of its head. Since I know the physical properties of a horse and a horn and others know this as well. Exploring the world around us we all could agree nobody has seen a unicorn therefore it is not in existence. God on the other hand, is not material therefore he differs from the unicorn. If that's the basis of your argument, then what about all of the other gods like Zeus, Thor, Baal, Apollo, and the countless others? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grains Posted July 7, 2008 Report Share Posted July 7, 2008 If that's the basis of your argument, then what about all of the other gods like Zeus, Thor, Baal, Apollo, and the countless others? I have no faith in them so I would not be the one you would need to challenge on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modest Posted July 7, 2008 Report Share Posted July 7, 2008 Please note: UNICORNS can be replaced with... Thor...what about all of the other gods like... Thor... Now you've crossed the line Mr. :naughty: ~modest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boerseun Posted July 7, 2008 Report Share Posted July 7, 2008 What you're saying, is the old argument about God being "unknowable". Now how can you believe in the existence of anything that is in its very nature, "unknowable"? There is a point regularly used by believers that the disbelief in God also counts as a religious stance, because there's no evidence either way. I put it to you that its wrong. The dismissal (not "disbelief") of the concept of "God" in the face of zero evidence, is a perfectly valid scientific opinion. "Believing" that God does not, in fact, exist, is not a religious stance, at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C1ay Posted July 7, 2008 Report Share Posted July 7, 2008 I have no faith in them so I would not be the one you would need to challenge on that. “I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” - Stephen Roberts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grains Posted July 7, 2008 Report Share Posted July 7, 2008 “I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” - Stephen Roberts I like the quote but I did not dismiss the idea of other possible gods. As I stated before I said I had no faith in them which means I am not the person to ask. I could conceivably see how you could believe in many Gods or a different god then mine, etc. I personally do not believe in many gods and that is all. What I intended to get across was saying I am not the one to challenge faith on the idea of many gods. I do like the quote though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfiniteNow Posted July 7, 2008 Report Share Posted July 7, 2008 YouTube - An Atheist Meets God http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urlTBBKTO68 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfiniteNow Posted July 7, 2008 Report Share Posted July 7, 2008 I do like the quote though. Though it appears you have quite missed it's point. C1ay does not believe in many gods, nor does Stephen Roberts. They don't believe in 99.9% of the same gods that you don't believe in, they just go one god further and include yours appropriately in that set of disbelief. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grains Posted July 8, 2008 Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 Though it appears you have quite missed it's point. C1ay does not believe in many gods, nor does Stephen Roberts. They don't believe in 99.9% of the same gods that you don't believe in, they just go one god further and include yours appropriately in that set of disbelief. I understood the quote maybe I think I am just new to this whole thread thing and realize I should probably break individual responses down and not try to tie in a couple of previous messages. If I may use your own words "They don't believe in 99.9% of the same gods that you don't believe in" and write before that post you posted "If that's the basis of your argument, then what about all of the other gods like Zeus, Thor, Baal, Apollo, and the countless others?" so I was (trying) to tie in the two together to kind of answer both at the same time and revisit the one you posted regarding Thor, etc. I think it was pretty clear where C1ay stood through his quote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.