Capital Punishment: Is it right?

[C1ay]

Quote:

Originally Posted by C1ay

There's a few but the vast majority of would be killers are not vividly aware of the consequences of their actions.... /Quote

 

Cedars replied:

And you know this because ...?

Because executions are no longer public. I chose the term "vivid" to imply the viewing of the execution and no one but a select few are chosen. Of those I'm not aware that any are thugs that someone is trying to deter but instead they are family members of the victim and witnesses.

[Qfwfq]

Supplying examples of robbers that avoided killing people doesn't prove much about deterrence, it happens often when they know the sentence can be a lot worse, even without DP.

 

As for the costs that have been discussed, the sad irony is that the comparison of these include the fact that in the US the prisoner's constitutional rights must be guaranteed and protected... up until the person is executed! Such a constitution, sanctifying these rights while allowing DP, doesn't quite match up to me. :confused:

 

Again the Supreme Court of the US decided that the jury that convicted the murderer will decide the death penalty. Judges have no say except in rulings and instructions to the jury. It is ordinary citizens who decide the murderer's fate.

Again, you and Sebbysteiny just miss my points.

 

Shifting it from the judge to the jury has no relevance. If your judges don't have some kind of a crystal ball, neither do your juries. In any case my point to which he Sebbysteiny responded had been a reply to Bill, about alternatives. There have been cases of successful reformation, even of the most vile criminals, it is largely a matter of someone being capable of doing it.

[C1ay]

Glad you asked!

 

Heres one from last november:

http://www.canada.com/news/world/story.html?id=27575e73-e226-41d5-a520-87e57b7404d4

 

Heres another which implys there were previous ones (from death row)...?

It sounds like the system failed to lock these guys up well enough. Which do you think would be cheaper? Another $1,000,000 plus each to kill these guys or a lifetime at Supermax? Note, I'm not asking if they deserve to die, just what is cheaper for society?

[Cedars]

It sounds like the system failed to lock these guys up well enough. Which do you think would be cheaper? Another $1,000,000 plus each to kill these guys or a lifetime at Supermax? Note, I'm not asking if they deserve to die, just what is cheaper for society?

 

I dont know that we should use the cost factor as a reason to dismantle the dp. It seems to me that it should be more expensive to take a dp case to trial and conclusion as a result of a higher burden of proof and an effort by the state to ensure that only guilty parties are sentenced to this. We could change the rules and make it less expensive, but personally I dont want to see that.

[sebbysteiny]

The "on topic" discussion is about the death penalty though. These other convicts are just that, non-death-row inmates. It's unfortunate that they were not properly secured but that is not the fault of the death penalty, or the lack thereof, but a fault of their jailers.

 

This to me is a synical post if I've ever heard one. Are we not missing the possibility that those prisoners realeased on parole might, just might, have been reformed and that the parole system might, and again just might, work sometimes?

 

On May 31, 1984, the Briley brothers organized and led an escape of five death-row inmates (the largest death-row breakout in U.S. history). They were at large for 19 days.

[followed by other good examples of break outs in dp and non-dp penalties all tied together with]

Life without parole means more time to plot an escape

 

I'm not convinced about Ronthaporn's "unbreakable jails" to attack the chance of a break out. I was very close to suggesting it myself, but I think that although one can minimise the probability of a break out, one can't reduce the chance to zero altogether.

 

Is the probability of break out when awarded the dp much lower than the probability of break out in a life sentence? Only if it is can I see any advantage for the dp owing to the 'break out' factor.

 

But even if there is, what are the consequences of these rare breakouts? Have many people been harmed? Is the 'break out' factor just a drop in the ocean compared to the amount of crime that might be cut by investing the savings of scrapping the dp in new policemen (or other police resources)? I'm really not convinced this 'break out' factor has much impact on the protection of society and therefore this debate.

 

Because executions are no longer public. I chose the term "vivid" to imply the viewing of the execution and no one but a select few are chosen. Of those I'm not aware that any are thugs that someone is trying to deter but instead they are family members of the victim and witnesses.

 

I agree to a certain extent. There is something about seeing a rotting carcass hanging in the streets with its body parts and organs disembowled that might make people doublethink their actions.

 

But just because deterence is not what it used to be in 'the good old days', does this mean that deterence is all but irrelivent today? I'm not convinced. Surely the knowledge that you might die counts for something even if you can't physically see the consequences in your day to day life?

Shifting it from the judge to the jury has no relevance. If your judges don't have some kind of a crystal ball, neither do your juries. In any case my point to which he Sebbysteiny responded had been a reply to Bill, about alternatives. There have been cases of successful reformation, even of the most vile criminals, it is largely a matter of someone being capable of doing it.

 

Your argument as far as I can see is based on the assumption that a serial murderer has an absolute right to reform and 'accomplish great things' if he is capable of doing so. That assumption is in my opinion highly questionable. Just because he can pick up a few self help books does not give him an instant pardon for what he has done. It is, at best, litigating circumstances that the Jury may or may not consider when choosing the appropriate sentence.

[C1ay]

I dont know that we should use the cost factor as a reason to dismantle the dp. It seems to me that it should be more expensive to take a dp case to trial and conclusion as a result of a higher burden of proof and an effort by the state to ensure that only guilty parties are sentenced to this. We could change the rules and make it less expensive, but personally I dont want to see that.

Cost is just one reason and it does cost a lot more, all at our expense. Even at the extra expense there have been a number of innocent people identified on death row as a result of technology advances. This proves that innocent people are getting death sentences even if it is rare. Should the death penalty be put on hold at least until there is a 100% certainty that the people there actually deserve to be there? If proving that level of certainty is cost prohibitive then why spend the money? Give them life and throw away the key.

[Cedars]

Because executions are no longer public. I chose the term "vivid" to imply the viewing of the execution and no one but a select few are chosen. Of those I'm not aware that any are thugs that someone is trying to deter but instead they are family members of the victim and witnesses.

 

OK that helped clarify what you meant. I understood your original comment as they didnt understand they could face the DP, that they were unaware of the potential for their own demise.

[Cedars]

Cost is just one reason and it does cost a lot more, all at our expense. Even at the extra expense there have been a number of innocent people identified on death row as a result of technology advances. This proves that innocent people are getting death sentences even if it is rare. Should the death penalty be put on hold at least until there is a 100% certainty that the people there actually deserve to be there? If proving that level of certainty is cost prohibitive then why spend the money? Give them life and throw away the key.

 

Throw away the key and what? Solitary confinement? No access to others besides corrections workers? Here come the lawsuits for cruel and unusal punishment.

 

Lifers (no parole) have nothing to lose. Think of the psycology behind this and its cause and effect. Sometimes there are people who are born who just dont care about anyone else. Simply put they are wired differently and the effect of this wiring is a detriment to society. Even in the extreme when they end up 'lifers' as has been suggested, they put anyone who they come in contact with at risk for further harm (including the prison personal).

 

Contracts on others lives have been issued by persons in prison. Mafia types, gang members, drug dealers have all been accused (and sometimes convicted) of arranging hits on people on the outside. Heres one example: http://foia.fbi.gov/foiaindex/mafia_mexican.htm

 

As far as 100% certainty there is no way to ensure the system wont fail on occasion. But if (and there are studies that suggest this is true) the DP stops one-two-three additional murders for every execution carried out it has saved an innocents life and been a deterrent. Who puts a price on the innocent?

 

When criminals themselves indicate that it was the potential for a DP conviction that inspired them to carry a toy gun, protect guards who were overpowered, etc, I think you have your deterrent case made. Who knows better than those who have made such a choice.

[C1ay]

Throw away the key and what? Solitary confinement? No access to others besides corrections workers? Here come the lawsuits for cruel and unusal punishment.

There are already 100s of inmates at the Florence Supermax facility serving their time in exactly these conditions. There are more at other facilities. They are in solitary confinement for 23 hours a day and they never see anyone but a prison worker, the one that opens the gate to let them outside, alone, for one hour a day. They have no access to anyone, ever. Follow the links to t he Florence facility above and the inmates serving there.

[Zythryn]

It sounds like the system failed to lock these guys up well enough. Which do you think would be cheaper? Another $1,000,000 plus each to kill these guys or a lifetime at Supermax? Note, I'm not asking if they deserve to die, just what is cheaper for society?

(bold added by me)

 

What value do you put on an innocent persons life? If they get paroled, escape or released in error and kill one person (or five, or a dozen) what is the value lost to society?

 

You do raise good points. If the prison system were completely secure I would prefer life in prison.

 

Part of my reaction is most likely emotional. It tears me apart when I here about a murderer who got out (parole or escape or mistake) that then kills again (such as the one Cedar cited).

 

I get frustrated and scream out that there has to be a way to protect the innocent.

 

However, it is just as sad and frustrating when it is discovered that an innocent man was put to death in error.

 

This is why I am on the fence regarding the dp, I can see both sides.

 

I guess the question comes down to where society is willing to error. In the attempt to keep people safe using the dp, or in loosing innocent people because we err on the side of taking it easy on murderers.

[C1ay]

What value do you put on an innocent persons life?

Priceless. That's why I brought up innocent people on death row and those actually executed by the system. What value do you put on their life?

[Zythryn]

That is a very good question, but I did ask you first:)

 

I'll be more specific:

What value do you put on the life of the officer that was killed by a murderer that was released from custody in Cedars example?

 

Frankly, I don't have an answer, but I would put the dollar amount higher than the difference between the money an excecution costs and the money life in jail costs.

[C1ay]

That is a very good question, but I did ask you first:)

 

I'll be more specific:

What value do you put on the life of the officer that was killed by a murderer that was released from custody in Cedars example?

 

Frankly, I don't have an answer, but I would put the dollar amount higher than the difference between the money an excecution costs and the money life in jail costs.

I answered; priceless. You cannot put a value on the life of someone killed because of society's mistake. I do think that the example of an officer is a poor one though. At least an officer knows going in that they are putting their life on the line. It would not be the same for an innocent bystander, either killed by an errantly released prisoner or in the death chamber itself by an errant conviction, either is just as bad. What can we do? We can eliminate accidental executions of wrongly convicted innocents by not using the death penalty and try our best to keep those that are convicted as secure as we can. That way we are not contributing to the killing of innocents by killing them ourselves.

[InfiniteNow]

Death penalty tends skewed toward convicts who couldn't afford a better lawyer.

 

Costs for punishment, whether it be rotting in a cell or put to death after decades of appeal are enormous, and the system, while it may have worked in the past, is desperately failing us today. The jails and prisons are a catch all because we haven't figured out a better solution yet... "Just throw 'em in there... out of sight, out of mind." "Oh, he's really bad, let's see about killing him."

 

Why do we punish the individual who put someone to death, but not the group/state/person/whatever responsible for putting THAT individual to death?

[Celeste]

I'll try to be brief and without emotion...

My 19 year old cousin was murdered some 18 years ago.

My cousin was an A student. He was active in sports and sponsered the Big Brothers program.

He had a scholarship to the U of U. My aunt and uncle still cry alot, even now.

His murderer fled to Wyoming. People that befriended him said he bragged about having killed before. He'd sit there with a big *** grin telling them how he'd hit my cousin so hard that his carotid artery had burst...how my cousin had fallen to his knee's trying to beg for mercy, bleeding out his eyes, nose, and mouth...dying. Later it was found that his very same scumbag had also beat, raped and killed a neighboring 12 year old boy.

 

My cousins murderer was murdered himself several months later. He was shot in the back of the head, execution style. Was justice served? No.

He died too easily and without an trace of remorse.

 

The most conclusive evidence that criminals fear the death penalty more than life without parole is provided by convicted capital murderers and their attorneys.

99.9% of all convicted capital murderers and their attorneys argue for life, not death, in the punishment phase of their trial.

 

Probability of being executed for committing a murder is less than 1 percent.

 

My questions are:

1. How do murderers justify their right to live but not their victims?

2. Did they hesitate when their victims were begging and pleading for their lives?

3. Did they show any mercy or even an fraction of the mercy we show them?

4. Did the murderer give their victim/s and families the same rights or defense we give them?

5. If there is not a doubt of one's guilt or mental capacity, (DNA, eye witness's, confessions, premeditation, etc.) why should any society pay one red cent, let alone hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars to show them the very mercy they failed to show their victims?

6. How is justice served by victims families paying taxes to keep the very same person that took their loved ones life, alive?

7. How do we justify the expense of providing 3 huge square meals, snacks, an education, tv's, sport equipment, beds, shelter, and security from harm to murderers? (millions of law abidding citizens do not even have money for 1 square meal a day)

 

Imposition of the death penalty is extraordinarily rare. Since 1967, there has been one execution for every 1600 murders, or 0.06%. FBI's Uniform Crime Report (UCR)

 

Of the roughly 52,000 state prison inmates serving time for murder in 1984, an estimated 810 had previously been convicted of murder and had killed 821 persons following their previous murder convictions. "Executing each of these inmates would have saved 821 lives."

(Stanford Law Review)

 

Cost of Life Without Parole:

1. $34,200/year for 50 years, at

a 2% annual cost increase, plus

$150,000 to $500,000 for trial & appeals = $3.501 million

 

Add an additional $61.7 million (54,000.00 each new bed) for new construction due to over-crowding needed per year. Even if the prisoner spent 20 years in prison the cost would be approx. $1,520,000 per murderer.

 

Cost of Death Penalty Cases

1. $60,000/year for 6 years, at

a 2% annual cost increase, plus

$1.5 million for trial & appeals = $1.88 million

 

Does execution offer deterrence? I believe so.

 

The highest murder rate in Houston (Harris County), Texas occurred in 1981, with 701 murders. Texas resumed executions in 1982. Since that time, Houston (Harris County) has executed more murderers than any other city or state (except Texas) AND has seen the greatest reduction in murder, 701 in 1981 down to 261 in 1996 - a 63% reduction, representing a 270% differential! (FBI, UCR)

 

On Christianity and execution;

Originally Posted by HydrogenBond

In the Old Testament justice was an eye for an eye. In the New Testament, Jesus taught turn the other cheek.

 

Though this is the usual interpretation, I don't believe Jesus applied 'turn the other cheek' to capital murder or any violent crime, especially where one is found guilty beyond resonable doubt.

 

Jesus; "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, but to fulfil. Matthew 5:17-22

"Jesus warned Peter that to die by the sword is the punishment proper for those who live by the sword...(take human life.)" Matthew 26:51-52

 

"If you do what is evil, be afraid; for [ the civil government ] does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is the minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon those who practice evil." Romans 13:4.

 

"He that smiteth a man so that he may die, shall be surely put to death." Ex 21:12

 

For a Christian, the entire bible from beginning to end, offers the clearest and most sustained justification for the death penalty. The purpose of capital punishment is justice - deterrence is irrelevant. A person who takes a human life, without proper sanction, forfeits any right to life.

 

 

"The death penalty is a warning, just like a lighthouse throwing beams out to sea. We hear about shipwrecks, but we do not hear about the ships the lighthouse guides safely on their way. We do not have proof of the number of ships it saves, but we do not tear the lighthouse down."

Prof. E. Haag

[C1ay]

Very good post Celeste. One question though, how much of an acceptable error is it that some innocent people are put to death for crimes they didn't commit? It does happen and we're finding more eberyday that were convicted as a result of a corrupt system that bullies disadvantaged people into taking the fall for crimes they didn't commit. Once we kill them we can't take it back once we've learned of our mistake.

 

My questions are:

1. How do murderers justify their right to live but not their victims?

They can't. I don't think that matters though. All that matters is that we justify our own right to kill them.

 

2. Did they hesitate when their victims were begging and pleading for their lives?

Some might, most probably don't. I don't know that it matters in our own consideration of what we should or should not do regarding how we process them.

 

3. Did they show any mercy or even an fraction of the mercy we show them?

No. I do believe our own mercy is something that makes us better than the savage beast.

 

4. Did the murderer give their victim/s and families the same rights or defense we give them?

No but we should afford rights to the accused so that we don't kill innocent people as those that are guilty have.

 

5. If there is not a doubt of one's guilt or mental capacity, (DNA, eye witness's, confessions, premeditation, etc.) why should any society pay one red cent, let alone hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars to show them the very mercy they failed to show their victims?

I actually support another level of guilt that I refer to as "Guilty beyond any shadow of a doubt" as oppsoed to "guilty beyond a reasonable doubt". For those that are guilt beyond any shadow of a doubt such as murderers caught on film I support a minimal appeals process. Our courts should not be tied up for years processing technicalities in these cases.

 

6. How is justice served by victims families paying taxes to keep the very same person that took their loved ones life, alive?

It's not.

 

7. How do we justify the expense of providing 3 huge square meals, snacks, an education, tv's, sport equipment, beds, shelter, and security from harm to murderers? (millions of law abidding citizens do not even have money for 1 square meal a day)

Prisoners in Supermax type facilities do not enjoy these privileges. They are locked up in solitary confinement 23 hours a day with 3 institutionalized meals a day. A fraction of them get a 13" B & W TV that is restricted to educational and religious programming only. Their only recreation is one hour a day to walk alone in a fenced pen with nothing but the ground and the sky to amuse them. Thier bed is a concrete slab with a thin mattress. They have no snacks or sports equipment, no educational or religious services. This is where murderers belong, at least until such time that we know that all of those that we put there are guilty beyond any shadow of a doubt. It is unacceptable that we should kill anyone ourselves that is really innocent. Do you agree?

[Cedars]

That's why I brought up innocent people on death row and those actually executed by the system. What value do you put on their life?

 

I googled most of the names from your link.

 

Jesse J. Tafero Dead Policeman. Was found with gun that killed. Present at incident which caused policemans death. Witness was participant also.

Warren McCleskey Dead Policeman. Admitted to participating in robbery.

 

In this state, if you are an accomplice to a crime where a policeman is killed you are as guilty of the death as the triggerman. This approach to crime has been upheld. Minnesota is not a dp state.

 

Wayne Felker Not enough info to conclude anything.

Pedro Medina Not enough info to conclude anything.

 

Coleman Gray The jury based their decision mostly upon the testimony of Coleman's accomplice in the robbery who claimed that Coleman pulled the trigger. Coleman had always maintained that his accomplice was the trigger man.

 

Maybe if this person had decided to not ROB someone he wouldnt have faced the DP. You can say that robbery isnt enough of a crime for the DP. In this case, it turned into murder. Beware the company you keep.

 

Leo Jones Possibly innocent. Police misconduct http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=17&did=449

 

Timothy Baldwin Not enough info to conclude anything

Brian Baldwin Not enough info to conclude anything

 

David Junior Brown (Dawud Mohammed) Found his ring under one victims liver. No information regarding why he should be considered innocent found during google search.

 

Joseph O'Dell I remember this case and the state involved did not complete the process as I expect of the judicial system. But we wont know until the DNA test is run. This can be remedied by the state involved. But then there was a recent case where an inmate in a different state (Illinois I think) expressed the same thing, the state involved ran the more conclusive test and this rapist was the right convict. Convicts are capable of lieing to the very end.

 

Of all the cases listed in your link I found one that possibly is innocent and O'Dell should have gotten his DNA test run before the execution. Others may have deserved a retrial or court injunctions regarding conduct at their trials, but this is a far cry from being innocent of the crime they were convicted of.

 

As far as accomplices fingering another criminal who was at the scene, that is an acceptable method of prosecution in court but as a side note I have never approved of jail house snitches (meaning cellies, not accomplices, claiming a confession was made to them with/without possiblity of lighter sentences/time). Yet criminals do brag about their crimes so its not like all cellmate information is fabricated.

 

My reservation with the DP is I dont want to see an innocent put to death. This reservation is not enough to persuade me that the DP should be abandoned but it is something that will persuade me that more legal safeguards should be mandated with Death Penalty cases.