Capital Punishment: Is it right?

[LJP07]

You still do not get that there is a difference between criminal murder, and Capital Punishment. Does the murder victim have the benefit of a justice system that presumes him innocent? Does the murder victim have a defense and an opportunity to be found innocent, or plea to a lesser punishment? The legal system makes it very difficult to execute a person. Those who are executed have gone through the most thorough examination of evidence that can be done. Both by the professionals that they may hire, and my teams of activist volunteers.

 

You need to read the definition of the word Manslaughter. Again, UNLAWFUL is the key word in the definition.

 

Bill

 

I fully understand the difference between Criminal Murder and Capital Punishment, Criminal Murder is unlawful intentional murder, Capital Punishment is the Lawful Intentional Murder, both are killings, both are wrong. I suggest you read the Point 7: Deterrance Argument on my Amnesty Link in my initial post, it hasn't proved anything with extensive research.

 

However, those who commit and prove to be " evil ", I still don't think it's MORAL to do such a thing. I'm not interested how they make it difficult to execute someone, it's a sickning act. The fact that theres even a risk that an innocent person is killed isn't right, how can you explain that Big Dog? Is that risk good enough for every person killed? By the way, it has happened and will happen again?

[Spiked Blood]

My God! Why are we still using the wheel to roll things? I mean, cavemen used the wheel! Haven't we advanced past cavemen yet? And didn't Hitler use the wheel? Do we want to use what Hitler used?

 

Bill

 

 

I see Mrs 'Bill' is still not giving it up at home.

 

Your method of dealing with an alternative opinion is also outdated. Grow up.

[LJP07]

On this link half way down the page, it describes the methods used worldwide in using the Death Sentence:

 

http://www.religioustolerance.org/execut3.htm

 

A piece of an article reads as follows Big Dog, especially read point 4:

 

Recent trends in the U.S.:

 

The country has experienced a rapid swing in opinion against the death penalty in recent years.

 

Some reasons are:

1.The continued opposition to the death penalty by the Roman Catholic

Church, some mainline faith groups and all or essentially all liberal faith groups.

 

2.A sharp decrease in total crime rates in the past decade.

 

3.Increasing recognition that race plays a major role in murder convictions.

 

4.DNA testing has proven that over 100 inmates awaiting execution on death row were innocent.

 

5.Research has cast doubt on whether capital punishment acts as a deterrent to murder.

 

6.A growing belief that many convicts have been executed for crimes they did not commit.

[TheBigDog]

I see Mrs 'Bill' is still not giving it up at home.

 

Your method of dealing with an alternative opinion is also outdated. Grow up.

LOL!!! You somehow see right through me SB.

 

Let me try this instead. Nobody who has received the death penalty has lived to repeat the crime. Many who have received lesser sentences have lived to repeat the crime. I don't need a study to know that is a fact. And Stalin used executions primarily as a way of holding political power, not as a method of open public justice.

 

Better?

 

Bill

[Zythryn]

I am personally on the fence regarding CP.

 

There are good arguments on both sides.

 

As I see it, the death penalty is not meant to be a deterrent, nor is it's primary reason for existing punishment. It exists to protect society.

 

There are severe issues with it, and I agree it would be far better to prevent these criminals from harming others. However, due to our current system of catch and release, we can't protect society from repeat offenders.

[InfiniteNow]

How do we teach people that murder is wrong by killing them?

 

 

Here are some other presentations I've made on Hypography on this topic if you care to view more:

 

http://hypography.com/forums/social-sciences/5781-whats-better-than-punishment.html

 

 

http://hypography.com/forums/philosophy-humanities/1507-war-ever-justified-6.html#post81883

The dead murderer never actually learned a lesson. They're just dead. Not a lot of learning happening there. Perhaps someone else learned a lesson, but not the one who is actually guilty

 

http://hypography.com/forums/92260-post26.html

No matter how forcefully they are punished, it will not bring back the loved one. They are gone. Killing someone doesn't teach them that killing is wrong, but is only a manifestation of blood lust. Revenge and retribution will do nothing to bring back what you've lost. In fact, it only spreads pain to others... perhaps the family of the convicted who had absolutely nothing to do with it.

 

http://hypography.com/forums/86631-post14.html

retribution has never brought back the missed loved one. Revenge doesn't make the emptiness nor hurt go away. To act on such emotion makes you no better than the individual who caused you the pain originally by their violent act, and does nothing to bring the loved one back nor help you let go of that pain. The only way to stop the cycle of pain, anguish, and hatred is to do so within yourself. Revenge nor retribution just won't do it.

[LJP07]

You have made some excellent posts regarding Punishment worldwide and excellent points regarding Capital Punishment. It's true that prison is a school of crime where you come out with a Ph.D at the end of the course. And I agree that new form of punishment should be taken, I've heard of prisons where some rich murderers demand satellite television and three course meals and politicians getting treated lighter, change does have to be improved in these areas.

 

However, as regards Capital Punishment I also think that saying " The dead murderer actually learned nothing " is very true as one of the main reasons for imprisonment is supposed to eradicate the possibility of those commiting crime again, therefore when you get these types who do it a second time after say 10 years imprisonment, what is the correct punishment? The correct punishment is what I can't figure out. But never Death Penalty as a punishment.

 

If only there were medication that could change criminals minds back to normal sane people?....:)

[InfiniteNow]

If only there were medication that could change criminals minds back to normal sane people?

When we call someone "crazy," it does nothing to illustrate who they are as a human being, only our own inability to successfully find a way to relate to them, their perceptions, and thier feelings.

[Qfwfq]

Murder is the deliberatly, willfully and unlawfully taking of a human life. Unless you wish to change the definition of the word, or the lawful power of government, then you cannot say that capital punishment is murder.

And CP is the deliberatly, willfully and lawfully taking of a human life.

 

So, of course CP isn't murder and murder isn't CP, by the sole difference that one is according to a law and the other isn't. Great discovery, but as the thread appears to be asking whether or not that very law is right, the distinction vanishes as a way of justifying that law. Tautology.

 

It reminds me of the robot cop's answer to a question in one of Azimov's books, where the guy couldn't believe a robot could make a good cop and was convinced it was a real man pretending to be a robot. How a robot could have a sense of justice, the robot answered that justice is when all laws are fully enforced, the guy said "Well, what about an unjust law?" and the reply was that an "unjust law" is a contradiction in terms.

[LJP07]

Other Statistics:

 

In 1965, 67% believed in the Death Penalty and 26% Opposed it. ( USA )

 

In 2004, 64% believe that the Death Penalty wasn't a detterant.

 

And on different opinion polls:

However in 2006,

 

65% were for Death Penalty and 28% were against it. These statisitics are only slightly lower than those of 1965. And shockingly 80% of Americans supported the Death Penalty in 1994, while 16% ( 1 in 6 ) were against it.

 

From 1994 to 2006, the Death Penalty support has gone down a great 15%.

 

These and more questions and statistics can be found at the following link:

 

http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/death/opinion.htm

 

And here are the methods of execution describing in-depth the methods used to kill the victim:

 

 

LETHAL INJECTION

 

Procedure: State statutes typically provide: "The punishment of death must be inflicted by continuous, intravenous administration of a lethal quantity of an ultrashort-acting barbiturate in combination with a chemical paralytic agent until death is pronounced by a licensed physician according to accepted standards of medical practice."

 

The execution protocol for most jurisdictions authorizes the use of a combination of three drugs. The first, sodium thiopental or sodium pentothal, is a barbiturate that renders the prisoner unconscious. The second, pancuronium bromide, is a muscle relaxant that paralyzes the diaphragm and lungs. The third, potassium chloride, causes cardiac arrest. Each chemical is lethal in the amounts administered.

 

The inmate is escorted into the execution chamber and is strapped onto a gurney with ankle and wrist restraints. The inmate is connected to a cardiac monitor which is connected to a printer outside the execution chamber. An IV is started in two usable veins, one in each arm, and a flow of normal saline solution is administered at a slow rate. One line is held in reserve in case of a blockage or malfunction in the other. At the warden’s signal, 5.0 grams of sodium pentothal (in 20 cc of diluent) is administered, then the line is flushed with sterile normal saline solution. This is followed by 50 cc of pancuronium bromide, a saline flush, and finally, 50 cc of potassium chloride. (See California Execution Procedures).

 

The most common problem encountered is collapsing veins and the inability to properly insert the IV. Some states allow for a Thorazine or sedative injection to facilitate IV insertion.

 

History: Lethal injection had first been proposed as a means of execution in 1888 when New York considered it but ultimately opted for electrocution. In 1977, Oklahoma became the first state to adopt lethal injection. Texas performed the first execution by lethal injection in 1982 with the execution of Charlie Brooks.

 

Current Application: 17 states and the federal government authorize lethal injection as the sole method of execution. 20 other states provide for lethal injection as the primary method of execution, but provide alternative methods depending upon the choice of the inmate, the date of the execution or sentence, or the possibility of the method being held unconstitutional. As of July 1, 2006, 861 of 1,029 (81%) executions performed since 1976 have been by lethal injection, including 375 of the last 378 executions.

 

ELECTROCUTION

 

Procedure: State statutes typically provide: "The sentence shall be executed by causing to pass through the body of the convict a current of electricity of sufficient intensity to cause death, and the application and continuance of such current through the body of such convict shall continue until such convict is dead."

 

The execution protocol for most jurisdictions authorizes the use of a wooden chair with restraints and connections to an electric current. The offender enters the execution chamber and is placed in the electric chair. The chair is constructed of oak and is set on a rubber matting and bolted to a concrete floor. Lap, chest, arm, and forearm straps are secured. A leg piece (anklet) is laced to the offender's right calf and a sponge and electrode is attached. The headgear consists of a metal headpiece covered with a leather hood which conceals the offender's face. The metal part of the headpiece consists of a copper wire mesh screen to which the electrode is brazened. A wet sponge is placed between the electrode and the offender's scalp. The safety switch is closed. The circuit breaker is engaged. The execution control panel is activated. The automatic cycle begins with the programmed 2,300 volts (9.5 amps) for eight seconds, followed by 1,000 volts (4 amps) for 22 seconds, followed by 2,300 volts (9.5 amps) for eight seconds. When the cycle is complete, the equipment is disconnected and the manual circuit behind the chair is disengaged. If the offender is not pronounced dead, the execution cycle is then repeated. (See Florida Execution Procedures).

 

The most common problems encountered include burning of varying degrees to parts of the body, and a failure of the procedures to cause death without repeated shocks. Witness accounts of many botched executions over the years have caused electrocution to be replaced with lethal injection as the most common method of execution.

 

History: In 1888, New York became the first state to adopt electrocution as its method of execution. William Kemmler was the first man executed by electrocution in 1890. See, In re Kemmler, 136 U.S. 436 (1890). The last state to adopt electrocution as a method of execution was in 1949. From 1930-1980 it was clearly the most common method of execution in the United States.

 

Current Application: Only Nebraska currently uses electrocution as the sole method of execution. 9 other states provide for electrocution as an alternative method, depending upon the choice of the inmate, the date of the execution or sentence, or the possibility of the method being held unconstitutional. Of the countries outside the United States that impose capital punishment, none prescribe execution by electrocution. Both the Humane Society of the United States and the American Veterinarian Medical Association condemn electrocution as a method of euthanasia for animals. As of July 1, 2006, 152 of 1,029 (14.7%) executions performed since 1976 have been by electrocution. Most recently, Brandon Hedrick elected electrocution in Virginia and was executed on iJuly 20, 2006.

 

LETHAL GAS

 

Procedure: State statutes typically and simply provide: "The punishment of death must be inflicted by the administration of a lethal gas."

 

The execution protocol for most jurisdictions authorizes the use of a steel airtight execution chamber, equipped with a chair and attached restraints. The inmate is restrained at his chest, waist, arms, and ankles, and wears a mask during the execution. The chair is equipped with a metal container beneath the seat. Cyanide pellets are placed in this container. A metal canister is on the floor under the container filled with a sulfuric acid solution. There are three executioners, and each executioner turns one key. When the three keys are turned, an electric switch causes the bottom of the cyanide container to open allowing the cyanide to fall into the sulfuric acid solution, producing a lethal gas. Unconsciousness can occur within a few seconds if the prisoner takes a deep breath. However, if he or she holds their breath death can take much longer, and the prisoner usually goes into wild convulsions. A heart monitor attached to the inmate is read in the control room, and after the warden pronounces the inmate dead, ammonia is pumped into the execution chamber to neutralize the gas. Exhaust fans then remove the inert fumes from the chamber into two scrubbers that contain water and serve as a neutralizing agent. The neutralizing process takes approximately 30 minutes from the time the offender's death is determined. Death is estimated to usually occur within 6 to 18 minutes of the lethal gas emissions. (See North Carolina Execution Procedures).

 

The most common problems encountered are the obvious agony suffered by the inmate and the length of time to cause death.

 

History: The use of a gas chamber for execution was inspired by the use of poisonous gas in World War I, as well as the popularity of the gas oven as a means of suicide. Nevada became the first state to adopt execution by lethal gas in 1924 and carried out the first execution in 1924. Since then it has served as the means of carrying out the death sentence 31 times. Lethal gas was seen as an improvement over other forms of execution, because it was less violent and did not disfigure or mutilate the body. The last execution by lethal gas took place in Arizona in 1999.

 

Current Application: Only 4 states, Arizona, California, Missouri, and Wyoming, currently authorize lethal gas as a method of execution, all as an alternative to lethal injection, depending upon the choice of the inmate, the date of the execution or sentence, or the possibility of lethal injection being held unconstitutional. As of July 1, 2006, 11 of 1,029 (01.1%) executions performed since 1976 have been by the administration of lethal gas.

 

HANGING

Procedure: Prior to any execution, the gallows area trap door and release mechanisms are inspected for proper operation. The rope, which is of manila hemp of at least 3/4"and not more than 1 1/4"in diameter and approximately 30 feet in length, is soaked and then stretched while drying to eliminate any spring, stiffness, or tendency to coil. The hangman's knot, which is tied pursuant to military regulations, is treated with wax, soap, or clear oil, to ensure that the rope slides smoothly through the knot. The end of the rope which does not contain the noose is tied to a grommet in the ceiling and then is tied off to a metal T-shaped bracket, which takes the force delivered by the offender's drop.

 

Additionally, prior to an execution, the condemned offender's file is reviewed to determine if there are any unusual characteristics the offender possesses that might warrant deviation from field instructions on hanging. A physical examination and measuring process is conducted to assure almost instant death and a minimum of bruising. If careful measuring and planning is not done, strangulation, obstructed blood flow, or beheading could result. At the appropriate time on execution day, the inmate, in restraints, is escorted to the gallows area and is placed standing over a hinged trap door from which the offender will be dropped. Following the offender's last statement, a hood is placed over the offender's head. Restraints are also applied. If the offender refuses to stand or cannot stand, he is placed on a collapse board. A determination of the proper amount of the drop of the condemned offender through the trap door is calculated using a standard military execution chart for hanging. The "drop" must be based on the prisoner's weight, to deliver 1260 foot_pounds of force to the neck. The noose is then placed snugly around the convict's neck, behind his or her left ear, which will cause the neck to snap. The trap door then opens, and the convict drops. If properly done, death is caused by dislocation of the third and fourth cervical vertebrae, or by asphyxiation. A button mechanically releases the trap door and escorts then move to the lower floor location to assist in the removal of the offender's body. (See Washington Execution Procedures).

 

History: Hanging is the oldest method of execution in the United States, but fell into disfavor in the 20th century after many botched attempts, and was replaced by electrocution as the most common method. There have been only 3 executions by hanging since 1977: Westley Dodd (WA 1993), Charles Campbell (WA 1994), and Billy Bailey (DE 1998).

 

Current Application: Only 3 states, Delaware, New Hampshire, and Washington, currently authorize hanging as a method of execution, all as an alternative to lethal injection, depending upon the choice of the inmate, whether injection is “impractical, or the possibility of lethal injection being held unconstitutional. As of July 1, 2006, 3 of 1,029 (0.3%) executions performed since 1976 have been by hanging.

 

FIRING SQUAD

 

Procedure: Shooting can be carried out by a single executioner who fires from short range at the back of the head or neck as in China. The traditional firing squad is made up of three to six shooters per prisoner who stand or kneel opposite the condemned who is usually tied to a chair or to a stake. Normally the shooters aim at the chest, since this is easier to hit than the head, causing rupture of the heart, great vessels, and lungs so that the condemned person dies of hemorrhage and shock. It is not unusual for the officer in charge to have to give the prisoner a pistol shot to the head to finish them off after the initial volley has failed to kill them.

 

The Utah statute authorizing execution by firing squad only provides: "If the judgment of death is to be carried out by shooting, the executive director of the department or his designee shall select a five-person firing squad of peace officers." At the appropriate time, the condemned offender is led to the execution area or chamber, which is used for both lethal injection and firing squad executions. The offender is placed in a specially designed chair which has a pan beneath it to catch and conceal blood and other fluids. Restraints are applied to the offender's arms, legs, chest and head. A head restraint is applied loosely around the offender's neck to hold his neck and head in an upright position. The offender is dressed in a dark blue outfit with a white cloth circle attached by Velcro to the area over the offender's heart. Behind the offender are sandbags to absorb the volley and prevent ricochets. Approximately 20 feet directly in front of the offender is a wall. This wall has firing ports for each member of the firing squad. The weapons used are 30_30 caliber rifles. No special ammunition is used. Following the offender's statement, a hood is placed over the offender's head. The warden leaves the room. The firing squad members stand in the firing position. They support their rifles on the platform rests. With their rifle barrels in the firing ports, the team members sight through open sights on the white cloth circle on the offender's chest. On the command to fire, the squad fires simultaneously. One squad member has a blank charge in his weapon but no member knows which member is designated to receive this blank charge. (See Utah Execution Procedures).

 

History: In recent history only two inmates have been executed by firing squad, both in Utah: Gary Gilmore (1977) and John Albert Taylor (1996). While the method was popular with the military in times of war, there has been one such execution since the Civil War: Private Eddie Slovak in WWII.

 

Current Application: Only 3 states, Idaho, Oklahoma, and Utah, currently authorize shooting as a method of execution, all as an alternative to lethal injection, depending upon the choice of the inmate, whether injection is “impractical, or the possibility of lethal injection being held unconstitutional. As of July 1, 2006, 2 of 1,029 (0.2%) executions performed since 1976 have been by firing squad.

[TheBigDog]

And CP is the deliberatly, willfully and lawfully taking of a human life.

 

So, of course CP isn't murder and murder isn't CP, by the sole difference that one is according to a law and the other isn't. Great discovery, but as the thread appears to be asking whether or not that very law is right, the distinction vanishes as a way of justifying that law. Tautology.

 

It reminds me of the robot cop's answer to a question in one of Azimov's books, where the guy couldn't believe a robot could make a good cop and was convinced it was a real man pretending to be a robot. How a robot could have a sense of justice, the robot answered that justice is when all laws are fully enforced, the guy said "Well, what about an unjust law?" and the reply was that an "unjust law" is a contradiction in terms.

I was responding to the assertion that anyone who supports Capital Punishment is themselves a murderer. I support Capital Punishment, but I am not a murderer.

 

InfiniteNow says that killing a murderer doesn't teach them anything. It does in that it teaches them that they lose. The lesson is final. But teaching the murderer is not the point. Protecting the public from the murderer is the point. And Capital Punishment is a great form of protection. Not many prison breaks by the dead.

 

I do not believe that those apposed to Capital Punishment are taking the correct tact in getting those laws off the books. Why not demonstrate alternatives that are more moral, and more protective, and hold them up as viable replacements, instead of attacking those who support the current system as being inherently evil. Always so nice to start a conversation with people calling me evil.

 

Bill

[Zythryn]

Very good point Bill.

An alternative that will protect society just as well would take the air out of the DP real quick.

 

For example, if NO ONE ever escaped from prison and NO ONE ever was released early due to overcrowding those would be great steps forward.

 

While the early release programs aren't in the news as much as they were in the late 90s, we need to gaurentee that it won't be an issue in the future.

[LJP07]

 

InfiniteNow says that killing a murderer doesn't teach them anything. It does in that it teaches them that they lose. The lesson is final. But teaching the murderer is not the point. Protecting the public from the murderer is the point. And Capital Punishment is a great form of protection. Not many prison breaks by the dead.

 

 

Ok, I understand your point but I don't think it's logical enough for everyone. Murderers don't think about losing, they only think of succeeding and ' getting away with it '. Their so confident in this that they commit the crime. While few cases may be exemplary to this point, it's for the majority of cases, in which your statement just can't be right.

 

The protection from the murderer is by imprisonment, that's the entire point of it, if some escape or whatever, then that's the fault of the prison for not having adequate protection, but for the vast majority of cases, it works splendidly. How is Capital Punishment a great form of protection, you didn't give your reasons and I can't logically think as to why?

[Guest jamongo]

There is a man in the United States who has been charged with kidnapping, sexual abuse of a child and murder.

 

He kept the little girl in a house trailer for three days sexually assaulting her. Then when the police appeared to be getting to close he wrapped her in plastic and buried her alive. Oh, he gave her her favorite little teddy bear to hold.

 

Now should this man be placed in prison or should he be killed?

 

I am basically against capital punishment, because as has been described in this thread, it seems the punishment is on the same level as the crime.

 

So, I think, and it is only my humble opinion, that a fit punishment for this man, (and others like him) would be to place him in a hospital, castrate him, and remove all of his teeth. Then send him to Turkey to be placed in prison for life.

 

The U.S.A. would pay the Turkish government some amount of money, say a one-time payment of $30,000,for this service.

[LJP07]

Medical Castration with approved physicians is a reasonable act because of the disturbing nature of the crime. Why send them to Turkey, do they have stricter prisons there?

[Spiked Blood]

Always so nice to start a conversation with people calling me evil.

 

Bill

 

 

Don't pretend it isn't so. Long ago were you corrupted, dark master. I see an evil aura surrounding you... Or is that smoke.. Are you smoking a Cuban?:D

 

 

I pretty much agree with the points InfiniteNow raised.

 

How do we teach people that murder is wrong by killing them?

[Southtown]

How do we teach people that murder is wrong by killing them?

Some incurable infections necessitate amputation. It is not supposed to be a cure, it is merely preventative of more infection.

 

This is relevant because people cannot control the thoughts or actions of other people. All we can do is dispense rewards or consequences. But rewards and consequences are not guaranteed to either promote good behavior or deter misbehavior.

 

So then, if a repeat offender is allowed to go free by our justice system, who is at fault when he kills again?

 

Sorry I edited Prolu, I had to tie two thoughts together.