Capital Punishment: Is it right?

[Cedars]

Yes I did, Jesse Tafero was in a link I posted earlier.

Yes and as I posted:

 

Jesse J. Tafero Dead Policeman. Was found with gun that killed. Present at incident which caused policemans death. Witness was participant also.

 

In this state, if you are an accomplice to a crime where a policeman is killed you are as guilty of the death as the triggerman. This approach to crime has been upheld. Minnesota is not a dp state.

[Cedars]

A position I've held for years but, the harder I look the more incompetence I find in the system. As long as there are cops and DAs that get brownie points for nabbing someone for a crime there will be cops and DAs that will fabricate evidence if they have to in order to convict someone, guilty or not. What good is vengence if it costs more lives in the process?

 

Incompetence in the system can be addressed and fixed. Criminal behaviors by police and/or prosecuting attorneys should be addressed. That is a different issue from whether or not capital punishment is right, a deterrent, saves more lives than it takes, etc.

[Zythryn]

No but that's irrelevant. Are you suggesting that it's OK for the system to kill innocent people in order to protect innocent people from others that might kill them? Shouldn't we first give priority to not killing innocent people ourselves?

 

Excellent!! We are getting somewhere:)

 

So we agree that it is wrong for us to kill people we find guilty of a capital crime.

 

We also agree it is wrong that people are killed by people that have commited capital crimes in the past and have been released/escaped.

 

Next step, what do we do next?

 

Solutions I see:

 

We stop releasing murderers ever and provide additional security to cut down on esapes. Once this is done we elimate the dp.

 

Or

 

We eliminate the possibility of incorrectly putting to death any innocent (I don't know how this would be done so this is only a partial solution)

 

Or

 

We think 'outside' the box (as suggested by another post earlier) and find a solution that guarentees murderers can't murder again.

 

The solution that would be quickest to impliment in my opinion would be the first.

One thought I would add to the first two, would be any murderer that did escape and killed again would be subject to the dp. This would not eliminate the dp (unless we eliminated escapes) but it would reduce them drastically.

[C1ay]

In this state, if you are an accomplice to a crime where a policeman is killed you are as guilty of the death as the triggerman. This approach to crime has been upheld. Minnesota is not a dp state.

No one proved he was an accomplice, and he had no gunpowder residue on his hands; he was not a murderer. Present doesn't matter either. Would you claim that everyone present at the convenience store is guiltyt just because someone else came in and shot the clerk? The killer even confessed and claimed that the other defendants had nothing to do with this killing and you claim that he deserved death anyhow? How telling...

[Cedars]

No one proved he was an accomplice, and he had no gunpowder residue on his hands; he was not a murderer. Present doesn't matter either. Would you claim that everyone present at the convenience store is guiltyt just because someone else came in and shot the clerk? The killer even confessed and claimed that the other defendants had nothing to do with this killing and you claim that he deserved death anyhow? How telling...

 

Read your own link again. The 3 of them were in the car together when the police found them. They were buddies before this occured. Tafero was on parole and shouldnt have been anywheres near a gun. But there he was. So here is someone who was a convict. Are you gonna try to say he didnt know better?

 

And there she was with 2 kids and a loaded gun in the car. PLUS when the cops finally busted them Tafero was holding the gun. So he wasnt exactly kidnapped was he?

 

As far as your analogy, if I am driving the get away car and the robbers who go into the store shoot someone, by law, I can be charged with murder. They were in coherts together when the shooting happened. They fled (all three of them) together in the dead police officers police car . And after this, they kidnapped another person and were finally busted in this stolen car. Get real. None of the three of them are 'innocent'.

[CraigD]

In this state [Minnesota], if you are an accomplice to a crime where a policeman is killed you are as guilty of the death as the triggerman. This approach to crime has been upheld. Minnesota is not a dp state.

I am curious, but unfamiliar with Minnesota state law – to what extent is this statute applied?

 

For example (based on personal experience, though fortunately, not one involving a death), suppose I am a masonry contractor. Due to financial straits, I have won a contract I don’t have enough scaffold jacks to complete on time, with the knowledge that I can “borrow” some from a nearby construction site where they will not be missed until after I’ve completed the job, and returned them, hopefully undected. In the wee hours of the morning, as I and my crew are committing our theft, we are caught by the police. One of my employees, who I know to have mental health issues and problems with authority figures, goes nuts and kills the lone cop.

 

I and my crew immediately subdue the killer, call the police, and wait for their arrival.

 

I and my employees were fully aware that our theft, though intended to be temporary, was criminal. Would I be charged with the same crime as the killer? Would all of my employees be?

 

My wife knew of, approved, and stood to benefit from our planned theft. She did not accompany us. Would she be charged with the same crime as the killer?

 

Another example: I am driving 70 MPH on a road with a posted speed limit of 55 MPH. Due to my excessive speed and failure to pay attention, I strike and kill a bicycle cop. Although I this killing was unintentional, I was aware that exceeding the speed limit is a crime.

 

My wife is present in the car with me, and was encouraging me to break the speed limit, because we were late to a social event.

 

With what crime, if any, would each of us be charged? Although I was unaware that I was hitting anybody, would I be charged with a different crime than if my victim were not a cop?

[Cedars]

I am curious, but unfamiliar with Minnesota state law – to what extent is this statute applied?

 

 

That would be up to the prosecuting attorney of the case (attorney general if it was a dead state trooper).

[Zythryn]

I believe that the crime, in MN, must be a felony. So in the speeding case there would be no issue with your wife.

My guess, again, would be as long as the killing of the trooper was judged not intentional you would be charged with vehicular manslaughter.

 

In the case of the theft gone bad, I really can't say about you. Your wife, I am guessing, could be charged as an acomplice to theft. Not sure if the DA would try to stretch it, or if they could, to acomplice to murder since she had no advance knowledge that this would result in the death of an officer and was not present at the crime.

 

Anyone have anything other than guesses:) ? I am curious too.

[C1ay]

Read your own link again. The 3 of them were in the car together when the police found them. They were buddies before this occured. Tafero was on parole and shouldnt have been anywheres near a gun. But there he was. So here is someone who was a convict. Are you gonna try to say he didnt know better?

 

And there she was with 2 kids and a loaded gun in the car. PLUS when the cops finally busted them Tafero was holding the gun. So he wasnt exactly kidnapped was he?

 

As far as your analogy, if I am driving the get away car and the robbers who go into the store shoot someone, by law, I can be charged with murder. They were in coherts together when the shooting happened. They fled (all three of them) together in the dead police officers police car . And after this, they kidnapped another person and were finally busted in this stolen car. Get real. None of the three of them are 'innocent'.

 

To what extent was each guilty? All that we know is based on a lie told by the real killer trying to cover his own ***. How can you say, with certainty, that Jesse Tafero personally commited an act worthy of the death penalty? The United States Court of Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit found evidence compelling enough to overturn the conviction of co-defendant Sonia Jacobs and Jesse Tafero died with a record that said he pulled the trigger when he didn't. How can you simply say oh well, he deserved to die anyhow, regardless of unknown circumstances? How could he have deserved to die when even the confessed triggerman, Rhodes, the only one of the three in that car that tested positive for gunpowder residue, is doing a life sentence?

 

Of course if you don't like the Jesse Tafero case you could try making the case for the execution of Wayne Felker.

Wayne Felker was accused of the 1981 rape and murder of Joy Ludlam, an acquaintance. Felker was the main suspect and was put under police surveillance within hours of her disappearance, which occurred fourteen days before the discovery of her body in a creek. An autopsy then put her death within the previous five days. However, when police realized this would have ruled Felker out as a suspect because he had been under police surveillance for the previous two weeks, the findings of the autopsy were changed....

 

Felker's final appeal to the Georgia Supreme Court drew a strong dissent from Presiding Judge Norman Fletcher, who condemned the prosecution's behavior and said that the state had "repeatedly misrepresented its entire file."

 

According to the opinion, the district attorney in charge of the case had even denied under oath that the new evidence existed, and "the State's repeated failure to comply with well-settled constitutional principles deprived Felker of a fair trial."...

 

Source: Justice Denied

 

Can you say with certainty that Wayne Felker deserved to die?

 

How about Timothy Baldwin?

Baldwin was convicted of the murder of an elderly woman in 1978. After the trial his lawyers found a hotel receipt proving he was hundreds of miles away in another state on the night of the murder. The prosecution promptly claimed that he had driven to the hotel in order to establish an alibi and then returned to Louisiana to commit the murder....

 

Same source...

 

Is there no reasonable doubt in any of these?

[Cedars]

To what extent was each guilty? All that we know is based on a lie told by the real killer trying to cover his own ***. How can you say, with certainty, that Jesse Tafero personally commited an act worthy of the death penalty? The United States Court of Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit found evidence compelling enough to overturn the conviction of co-defendant Sonia Jacobs and Jesse Tafero died with a record that said he pulled the trigger when he didn't. How can you simply say oh well, he deserved to die anyhow, regardless of unknown circumstances? How could he have deserved to die when even the confessed triggerman, Rhodes, the only one of the three in that car that tested positive for gunpowder residue, is doing a life sentence?

 

Of course if you don't like the Jesse Tafero case you could try making the case for the execution of Wayne Felker.

 

 

Can you say with certainty that Wayne Felker deserved to die?

 

How about Timothy Baldwin?

 

 

Is there no reasonable doubt in any of these?

 

I googled Felker and Baldwin and could not find additional information that allowed me to come to a conclusion either way, which is why I stated in my first response to you "Not enough info to conclude anything." For example, this morning I clicked on one of the google links which comes up in your search link you posted on Felker and it is about his appeal claiming the electric chair is cruel and unusual punishment. Now this link offers no information on issues of the case itself. I havent any reason to think the jury came to the wrong conclusion.

 

As far as the Tafero case, I have found no willful prosecutor misconduct. Rhodes says he lied (after the fact) and whos to say he isnt lying now? *which is how the law looks at such things*.

 

Now I have not pondered these cases from a jurist point of view. Would I have convicted and sentenced Sonia Jacobs to death? Probably not.

 

Would I have convicted and sentenced Tafero? Probably. But this is based on what I know of the case which was presented to the jury. There is a witness saying Tafero did it. Tafero was found with the gun. The three of them fled, kidnapped another person and stole his car, why in the world would Tafero and his girlfriend stay if they werent involved? I cannot resolve this issue even now.

 

Tafero didnt fight with Rhodes? Why not, especially when they are stealing another car (a civilian)? Opportunity to escape? If not for anything else theres kids in the car, two dead cops, and Rhodes has nothing to lose and has proven he is capable of anything. I wouldnt have trusted him to let me live anyways. Might as well die trying to escape. Theres already two dead cops I am going to have to explain if I live.

 

Yep I still have doubt about both Tafero and Jacobs version of events. And I would guess this was debated by the jury when they got the case originally.

 

No reasonable doubt is different from Beyond a reasonable doubt.

[C1ay]

I googled Felker and Baldwin and could not find additional information that allowed me to come to a conclusion either way...

Wayne Felker was accused of the 1981 rape and murder of Joy Ludlam, an acquaintance. Felker was the main suspect and was put under police surveillance within hours of her disappearance, which occurred fourteen days before the discovery of her body in a creek. An autopsy then put her death within the previous five days. However, when police realized this would have ruled Felker out as a suspect because he had been under police surveillance for the previous two weeks, the findings of the autopsy were changed.

Nearly four years after his execution, Ellis Wayne Felker is becoming part of the debate over DNA evidence and capital punishment.

 

A Middle Georgia judge has ordered evidence in Felker's case be made available for DNA testing, a technology that did not exist when he was tried for murder 17 years ago in Houston County.

 

I googled Felker and Baldwin and could not find additional information that allowed me to come to a conclusion either way...

Baldwin was convicted of the murder of an elderly woman in 1978. After the trial his lawyers found a hotel receipt proving he was hundreds of miles away in another state on the night of the murder. The prosecution promptly claimed that he had driven to the hotel in order to establish an alibi and then returned to Louisiana to commit the murder.

 

As far as the Tafero case, I have found no willful prosecutor misconduct.

What has prosecutor misconduct got to do with the fact that he had NO gunpowder residue on his hands and Rhodes did? Rhodes is doing life and Tafero was executed.

 

Case after case haste is rushing to execute people without consideration of new evidence and technology. What good does it do to clear a man with DNA evidence 4 years after his execution? At least you could set him free if he was serving life by mistake. How do you take back mistaken executions?

[InfiniteNow]

How do you take back mistaken executions?

I suggest a nice gift basket and a gift card to Amazon for the family. That should make things about even, right?

 

Helluva good question C1ay.

[Cedars]

Tafero

I am done discussing this with you. I have presented the fact that if your at a crime scene you can be charged with murder, including capital murder. Criminals should know the risk they take when chosing their companions. Tafero was no innocent and he knew better than to hang around a gun wielding career criminal. The jury must decide on the evidence presented before it. Change the evidence law(s) if you dont like it.

 

But I tell you what, I dont allow career criminals on my property. I dont ask them for rides and I sure wouldnt put my children in a car with a gun toting thug.

 

A Middle Georgia judge has ordered evidence in Felker's case be made available for DNA testing, a technology that did not exist when he was tried for murder 17 years ago in Houston County.

Come back with the results after the test is run.

Baldwin was convicted of the murder of an elderly woman in 1978. After the trial his lawyers found a hotel receipt proving he was hundreds of miles away in another state on the night of the murder.

It proves a piece of paper was hundreds of miles away (after the trial). Why exactly didnt the defense come up with this before the trial? These kinds of items can be fabricated and thats a fact. I have the receipts when I rent a room that day. Actually I cannot think of a single trip I have taken for hundreds of miles where I didnt have more than one reciept to show I was somewhere else. And where exactly was Baldwin going? He just drove a couple hundred miles and turned around again? There was a witness saying Baldwin was there. I probably would have voted to convict. It doesnt matter that later the witness recanted. A jury decides on the evidence presented and its not a prosectors job to defend the person on trial.

 

Everytime someone makes a judgement on such issues they can only rely on the information given to them at the time. You can say what you want about these cases but when I read them I can see exactly why a jury convicted each of these persons. I have said before I havent any problem with changing the system even if it makes the costs go up for a death penalty trial, even if it lessens the number of persons who would be executed. I dont subscribe to the idealism that its better 10 guilty go free rather than 1 innocent suffer. I say fix the system so no one suffers.

 

But after reading all the information I have and knowing what I do, I cannot dismiss the advantage to people everywhere that having the potential to be put to death for their crimes, the death penalty does bring about to the criminal minds.

 

I am convinced a greater number of persons are saved each year via deterrence, and the removal of these persons from society and put on death row as an option for some crimes committed against people, than are wrongfully executed. Less than 1% of murderers are subjected to the dp. What is it now 25,000 murders each year? 35,000 murders each year? I think this country shows alot of restraint when casting the lot on someones life, rather than a rush to execute as you suggest.

 

And I dont understand the anti-dp mindset, that they are so willing to let a killer, kill again or remove the restraint some criminals undertake due to the death penalty being a possiblity if they kill someone. The lack of concern for those who would die by the hands of these criminals, criminals who dont care at all about life unless their own is at stake, given another reason to be unafraid. Innocent persons are going to pay a price much higher than the few (if any) innocent persons are executed.

[C1ay]

And I dont understand the anti-dp mindset, that they are so willing to let a killer, kill again or remove the restraint some criminals undertake due to the death penalty being a possiblity if they kill someone. The lack of concern for those who would die by the hands of these criminals, criminals who dont care at all about life unless their own is at stake, given another reason to be unafraid. Innocent persons are going to pay a price much higher than the few (if any) innocent persons are executed.

I no longer understand the death penalty mindset. There are plenty of criminals that don't deserve to live but anyone that looks at how many mistakes the system makes must know that there is a percentage put to death that just didn't deserve it. How many have been executed simply because some cop beat a confession out of someone in order to have someone to point the finger at. Death penalty advocates harp on the innocents that might be killed if murderers get loose but they don't seem to give a rats *** about any innocents killed by the state. All I ask is for a 100% percent guarantee that every single execution is just. That there are absolutely NO mistakes. Is that really to much to ask for? Are you personally willing to die for some trigger happy prosecuter if he/she can prove you guilty of a crime you didn't commit?

 

By the way, once again, how do you take back a mistaken execution?

[Cedars]

All I ask is for a 100% percent guarantee that every single execution is just. That there are absolutely NO mistakes. Is that really to much to ask for?

 

As I have said in previous posts, I havent any problem with changing the rules of evidence as an attempt to ensure that all dp trials maintain the goal of 100%. Even if it costs more. Even if the changes reduce the number of executions. I have also said that prosecutors and police, who withhold evidence clearing someone, or lie about the case needs to be addressed. If their conduct results in an execution via withholding evidence or direct lies, they should themselves be charged with premeditated murder. I disagree that this is symptomatic of someone who "dont seem to give rats *** about any innocents killed by the state."

 

By the way, once again, how do you take back a mistaken execution?

The same way you give back years to a person convicted of a rape they didnt commit. It doesnt mean we should not pursue rape cases to the fullest extent of the law.

[C1ay]

As I have said in previous posts, I havent any problem with changing the rules of evidence as an attempt to ensure that all dp trials maintain the goal of 100%.

So what about all of those on death row now? Do you believe with 100% certainty that they are all deserving of death? That there are no mistakes? That the system as it is now is error free?

 

The same way you give back years to a person convicted of a rape they didnt commit. It doesnt mean we should not pursue rape cases to the fullest extent of the law.

That's apples and oranges. You can always set the wrongly convicted free to live the remainder of their life and you can even attempt to make restitution to them for the time they've lost. How do you give a life back to the mistakenly executed?

[Cedars]

So what about all of those on death row now? Do you believe with 100% certainty that they are all deserving of death? That there are no mistakes? That the system as it is now is error free?

 

 

That's apples and oranges. You can always set the wrongly convicted free to live the remainder of their life and you can even attempt to make restitution to them for the time they've lost. How do you give a life back to the mistakenly executed?

 

Doesnt matter what I believe, they have been tried, convicted and sentenced by a jury of their peers (or a judge if they chose that option).

 

The fact remains that in my opinion, there are crimes which deserve the penalty of death. You wont change that opinion until these crimes no longer occur. I am convinced the death penalty saves more lives than it takes in mistake. And even if one, two, three... of those are proven to be innocent, my opinion that there are crimes which deserve the death penalty will not be changed.

 

And I dont think its apples and oranges. Its the same system and lives are taken. 20 years in prison is a wasted life. But that shouldnt prevent states from pursuing rapists to the fullest extent of the law.