Plant Shamanism: The one the Religion cant give you....

[Racoon]

Its hard to find any "hard science" regarding Entheogens; But here is a relatively recent article I dug up about "Psychedelics" :lol:

 

Psychology Today, March-April 2005 v38 i2 p28(2)

Drugs in rehab. (Psychedelics) Steven Kotler.

 

BACK IN THE early sixties, Harvard psychologist Timothy Leafy snuck LSD out of campus laboratories and into the mainstream. Soon, tie-dyed hell broke loose in popular culture, and psychedelic drugs were quickly banned. By decade's end, they had all but vanished from the psychological research scene.

 

Now, for the first time in some 30 years, human studies of such contraband substances are on the upswing. Many researchers say it should have happened sooner.

 

"The banning of psychedelics has been an absolute disaster for consciousness and medical research," says Rick Doblin, head of the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies, a nonprofit pharmaceutical company funding much of this new work.

 

 

Many researchers say hallucinogens were kept out of research labs because of fear generated by drugs like methamphetamines and heroin and the "war on drugs." In fact, there's little evidence that psychedelics are either addictive or more dangerous than, say, alcohol or marijuana, researchers report. Doblin argues that in the intervening decades, advances in everything from disease treatment to consciousness studies to basic psychological research have suffered. "These new studies are just the first steps on a long road to recovery," he says.

 

 

The turnaround started in the early 1990s, when the Food and Drug Administration ran out of reasons, political and otherwise, to quash contraband drug research, Doblin says. Scientists hope hallucinogens can make inroads with tough-to-treat conditions, says Charles Grob, chief of adolescent and teen psychiatry at the University of California at Los Angeles. Grob is picking up where another researcher, Eric Kast, left off in the 1960s. Kast had promising results using LSD (lysergic acid diethylamide) to relieve anxiety in terminally ill cancer patients. To follow up on those results, Grob is currently investigating psilocybin--the magic in "magic mushrooms"--as a treatment for anxiety in late-stage cancer patients.

 

 

Researchers hope this is only the beginning of a hallucinogenic data mine. As Grob also points out, "People forget, but psychedelics were the cutting edge of science in this country for 50 years." In fact, in the 1940s and '50s, so much money flowed in this direction that many top researchers got their start in this field. Many feel modern psychiatry owes its origins to the study of hallucinogens.

 

After all, it was the discovery of the neurotransmitter serotonin--thanks to LSD--that jump-started the brain chemistry revolution.

 

SIX PSYCHEDELIC DRUG STUDIES ARE UNDERWAY, ALL AIMED AT

SOME OF MEDICINE'S MORE INTRACTABLE PROBLEMS.

 

The Researchers The Studies

 

The Medical University of South MDMA (ecstasy) in conjunction with

Carolina: Michael Mithoefer cognitive behavioral therapy for

the treatment of post-traumatic

stress disorder triggered by

sexual abuse

University of Arizona: Obsessive-compulsive disorder

Francisco Moreno treatment with psilocybin

University of California at Late-stage cancer-related anxiety

Los Angeles: treated with psilocybin and

Charles Grob therapy

Harvard University: John Halpern Late-stage cancer-related anxiety

treated with MDMA and therapy

Harvard University: Andrew Sewell Treatment of cluster headaches

(not yet approved) with LSD and psilocybin

[neuroflux]

FROM THE wikipeda DICTIONARY online.

ENTHEOGEN:

The word "entheogen" was coined in 1979 by a group of ethnobotanists and scholars of mythology (Carl A. P. Ruck, Jeremy Bigwood, Danny Staples, Richard Evans Schultes, Jonathan Ott and R. Gordon Wasson). The literal meaning of the word is "that which causes God to be within an individual". The translation "creating the divine within" is sometimes given, but it should be noted that entheogen implies neither that something is created (as opposed to just perceiving something that is already there) nor that that which is experienced is within the user (as opposed to having independent existence).

 

The term was coined as a replacement for the terms "hallucinogen" (popularized by Aldous Huxley's experiences with mescaline, published as The Doors of Perception in 1953) and "psychedelic" (a Greek neologism for "soul-revealing", coined by psychiatrist Humphry Osmond, who was quite surprised when the well-known author, Aldous Huxley, volunteered to be a subject in experiments Osmond was running on mescaline). Ruck et al. argued that the term "hallucinogen" was inappropriate due to its etymological relationship to words relating to delirium and insanity. The term "psychedelic" was also seen as problematic, due to the similarity in sound to words pertaining to psychosis and also due to the fact that it had become irreversibly associated with various connotations of 1960s pop culture.

 

The meanings of the term "entheogen" were formally defined by Ruck et al.:

 

In a strict sense, only those vision-producing drugs that can be shown to have figured in shamanic or religious rites would be designated entheogens, but in a looser sense, the term could also be applied to other drugs, both natural and artificial, that induce alterations of consciousness similar to those documented for ritual ingestion of traditional entheogens.

 

Since 1979, when the term was proposed, its use has become widespread in certain circles. In particular, the word fills a vacuum for those users of entheogens who feel that the term "hallucinogen", which remains common in medical, chemical and anthropological literature, denigrates their experience and the world view in which it is integrated. Use of the strict sense of the word has therefore arisen amongst religious entheogen users, and also amongst others who wish to practice spiritual or religious tolerance.

 

The use of the word "entheogen" in its broad sense as a synonym for "hallucinogenic drug" has attracted criticism on three grounds. On pragmatic grounds, the objection has been raised that the meaning of the strict sense of "entheogen", which is of specific value in discussing traditional, historical and mythological uses of entheogens in religious settings, is likely to be diluted by widespread, casual use of the term in the broader sense. Secondly, some people object to the misuse of the root theos (god in ancient Greek) in the description of the use of hallucinogenic drugs in a non-religious context, and coupled with the climate of religious tolerance or pluralism that prevails in many present-day societies, the use of the root theos in a term describing non-religious drug use has also been criticised as a form of taboo deformation. Thirdly there are some substances that at least partially fulfil the definition of an entheogen that is given above, but are not hallucinogenic in the usual sense. One important example is the bread and wine of the Christian Eucharist.

 

Ideological objections to the broad use of the term often relate to the widespread existence of taboos surrounding psychoactive drugs, with both religious and secular justifications. The perception that the broad sense of the term "entheogen" is used as a euphemism by hallucinogenic drug-users bothers both critics and proponents of the secular use of hallucinogenic drugs. Critics frequently see the use of the term as an attempt to obscure what they perceive as illegitimate motivations and contexts of secular drug use. Some proponents also object to the term, arguing that the trend within their own subcultures and in the scientific literature towards the use of term "entheogen" as a synonym for "hallucinogen" devalues the positive uses of drugs in contexts that are secular but nevertheless, in their view, legitimate.

 

Beyond the use of the term itself, the validity of drug-induced, facilitated, or enhanced religious experience has been questioned. The claim that such experiences are less valid than religious experience without the use of any chemical catalysts faces the problem that the descriptions of religious experiences by those using entheogens are indistinguishable from many reports of religious experiences without drugs. In an attempt to empirically answer the question about whether drugs can actually facilitate religious experience, the Marsh Chapel Experiment was conducted by physician and theology doctoral candidate, Walter Pahnke, under the supervision of Timothy Leary and the Harvard Psilocybin Project. In the double-blind experiment, volunteer graduate school divinity students from the Boston area almost all claimed to have had profound religious experiences under the influence of psilocybin. (A brief video about the Marsh Chapel experiment can be viewed here.)

[edit]

 

Use of entheogens

 

Naturally occurring entheogens such as Datura were, for the most part, discovered and used by older cultures, as part of their spiritual and religious life, as plants and agents which were respected, or in some cases revered. By contrast, artificial and modern entheogens, such as MDMA, never had a tradition of religious use.

 

Currently entheogens are used in three principal ways: as part of established traditions and religions, secularly for personal spiritual development, and secularly in a manner similar to recreational drugs. A lesser use of entheogens for medical and therapeutic use is rarely pursued due to legislative and cultural objections.

[edit]

 

Entheogen-using cultures

 

The use of entheogens in human cultures is generally ubiquitous throughout recorded history. The number of entheogen-using cultures is therefore very large. Some of the instances better known to Western scholarship are discussed here.

[edit]

 

Africa

 

The best-known entheogen-using culture of Africa is the Bwitists, who used a preparation of the root bark of Iboga (Tabernanthe iboga).[1] A famous entheogen of ancient Egypt is the blue lotus (Nymphaea caerulea). There is evidence for the use of entheogenic mushrooms in Côte d'Ivoire (Samorini 1995). Numerous other examples of the use of plants in shamanic ritual in Africa are yet to be investigated by western science.

[edit]

 

Americas

 

Entheogens have played a pivotal role in the spiritual practices of most American cultures for millennia. The first American entheogen to be subject to scientific analysis was the peyote cactus (Lophophora williamsii). For his part, one of the founders of modern ethno-botany, the late Richard Evans Schultes of Harvard University documented the ritual use of peyote cactus among the Kiowa of Oklahoma. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_E._Schultes) Used traditionally by many cultures of what is now Mexico, its use spread to throughout North America in the 19th century, replacing the toxic entheogen Sophora secundiflora (mescal bean). Other well-known entheogens used by Mexican cultures include psilocybin mushrooms (known to the Aztecs under the Nahuatl name teonanacatl), the seeds of several morning glories (Nahuatl: tlitliltzin and ololiuhqui) and Salvia divinorum (Mazateco: Ska Pastora; Nahuatl: pipiltzintzintli).

Urarina shaman, 1988

Enlarge

Urarina shaman, 1988

 

Indigenous peoples of South America employ a wide variety of entheogens. Better-known examples include ayahuasca (Banisteriopsis caapi plus admixtures) among indigenous peoples (such as the Urarina) of Peruvian Amazonia. Other well-known entheogens include: borrachero (Brugmansia spp); San Pedro Trichocereus spp); and various tryptamine-bearing snuffs, for example Epená (Virola spp), Vilca and Yopo (Anadananthera spp). The familiar tobacco plant, when used uncured in large doses in shamanic contexts, also serves as an entheogen in South America.

 

In addition to indigenous use of entheogens in the Americas, one should also note their important role in contemporary religions movements, such as the Rastafari movement and the Church of the Universe.

[edit]

 

Asia

 

The indigeneous peoples of Siberia (from whom the term shaman was appropriated) have used the fly agaric mushroom (Amanita muscaria) as an entheogen. The ancient inebriant Soma, mentioned often in the Vedas, may have been an entheogen. (In his 1967 book, Wasson argues that Soma was fly agaric. The active ingredient of Soma is now presumed to be ephedrine, an alkaloid with entheogenic properties derived from the soma plant, identified as Ephedra pachyclada.)

[edit]

 

Europe

 

The use of entheogens in Europe was all but eliminated with the rise of post-Roman Christianity and especially during the great witch hunts of Early Modernity. European witches used various entheogens, including deadly nightshade (Atropa belladonna), mandrake (Mandragora officinarum) and henbane (Hyoscyamus niger). These plants were used, among other things, for the manufacture of "flying ointments". In Christian society, witches were commonly believed to fly through the air on broomsticks after coating them with the ointment and applying them to the skin. Consequently, any association with these plants could have proven extremely dangerous and lead to one's execution as a practitioner of witchcraft. The imposition of Roman Christianity also saw the end of the two-thousand-year-old tradition of the Eleusinian Mysteries, the initiation ceremony for the cult of Demeter and Persephone involving the use of a possibly entheogenic substance known as kykeon. Similarly, there is evidence that nitrous oxide or ethylene may have been in part resposible for the visions of the equally long-lived Delphic oracle.[citation needed]

 

In the Christian era the Eucharist plays a symbolic role in religious tradition that has occasionally attracted the label of "entheogen" or "placebo entheogen", even though it does not conform to the original definition involving the use of vision-inducing substances.

[edit]

 

Middle East

 

The entheogenic use of substances, particularly hashish, by ancient Sufis is well-documented. Its use by the "Hashshashin" to stupefy and recruit new initiates was widely reported during the Crusades. However, the drug used by the Hashshashin was likely wine, opium, henbane, or some combination of these, and, in any event, the use of this drug was for stupefaction rather than for entheogenic use. It has been suggested that the ritual use of small amounts of Syrian Rue is an artifact of its ancient use in higher doses as an entheogen. John Marco Allegro has argued in his book The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross that early Jewish and Christian sects and cults were based on the use of Amanita muscaria,[2] though this hypothesis has not achieved widespread currency.

[edit]

 

Oceania

 

Indigenous Australians are generally supposed not to have used entheogens, although there is a strong barrier of secrecy surrounding Aboriginal shamanism, which has likely limited what has been told to outsiders. Natives of Papua New Guinea are known to use several species of entheogenic mushrooms (Psilocybe spp, Boletus manicus).[3] It has been suggested that the Māori of New Zealand used Māori Kava (Macropiper excelsum) as an entheogen (Bock 2000).

[edit]

 

"Entheogen" in Classical mythology and cult

 

Although entheogens are taboo in Christian and Islamic societies, their ubiquity and prominence in the spiritual traditions of other cultures is unquestioned. The entheogen, "the spirit, for example, need not be chemical, as is the case with the ivy and the olive: and yet the god was felt to be within them; nor need its possession be considered something detrimental, like drugged, hallucinatory, or delusionary: but possibly instead an invitation to knowledge or whatever good the god's spirit had to offer." (Ruck and Staples)

 

Most of the well-known modern examples, such as peyote, psilocybe and other psychoactive mushrooms and ololiuhqui, are from the native cultures of the Americas. However, it has also been suggested that entheogens played an important role in ancient Indo-European culture, for example by inclusion in the ritual preparations of the Soma, the "pressed juice" that is the subject of Book 9 of the Rig Veda. Soma was ritually prepared and drunk by priests and initiates and elicited a paean in the Rig Veda that embodies the nature of an entheogen:

 

"Splendid by Law! declaring Law, truth speaking, truthful in thy works, Enouncing faith, King Soma!... O [soma] Pavāmana, place me in that deathless, undecaying world wherein the light of heaven is set, and everlasting lustre shines.... Make me immortal in that realm where happiness and transports, where joy and felicities combine..."

 

The Kykeon that preceded initiation into the Eleusinian Mysteries is another entheogen, which was investigated (before the word was coined) by Carl Kerenyí, in Eleusis: Archetypal Image of Mother and Daughter. Other entheogens in the Ancient Near East and the Aegean include the poppy, Datura, the unidentified "lotus" eaten by the Lotus-Eaters in the Odyssey and Narkissos.

 

According to Ruck, Eyan, and Staples, the familiar shamanic entheogen that the Indo-Europeans brought with them was knowledge of the wild Amanita mushroom. It could not be cultivated; thus it had to be found, which suited it to a nomadic lifestyle. When they reached the world of the Caucasus and the Aegean, the Indo-Europeans encountered wine, the entheogen of Dionysus, who brought it with him from his birthplace in the mythical Nysa, when he returned to claim his Olympian birthright. The Indo-European proto-Greeks "recognized it as the entheogen of Zeus, and their own traditions of shamanism, the Amanita and the 'pressed juice' of Soma — but better since no longer unpredictable and wild, the way it was found among the Hyperboreans: as befit their own assimilation of agrarian modes of life, the entheogen was now cultivable" (Ruck and Staples). Robert Graves, in his foreword to The Greek Myths, argues that the ambrosia of various pre-Hellenic tribes were amanita and possibly panaeolus mushrooms.

 

Amanita was divine food, according to Ruck and Staples, not something to be indulged in or sampled lightly, not something to be profaned. It was the food of the gods, their ambrosia, and it mediated between the two realms. It is said that Tantalus's crime was inviting commoners to share his ambrosia.

 

Even in cultures where they are acceptable, improper use of an entheogen, by the unauthorized or uninitiated, has led to disgrace, exile, and even death. The expulsion of Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden can be understood as such a parable of an entheogen misused, for the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge by its very nature is clearly part of what is denoted by "entheogen" a point made clearly by God:

 

"And the Lord God said, 'Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:'

Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

So he drove out the man; and he placed at the East of the garden of Eden cherubims and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life."

 

Genesis 3:23-25.

 

Indeed the entheogen offers godlike powers in many Traditional tales, including immortality. The failure of Gilgamesh in retrieving the plant of immortality from beneath the waters teaches that the blissful state cannot be taken by force or guile: when Gilgamesh lay on the bank, exhausted from his heroic effort, the serpent came and ate the plant.

 

Another attempt at subverting the natural order is told in a (according to some) strangely metamorphosed myth, in which natural roles have been reversed to suit the Hellenic world-view. The Alexandrian Apollodorus relates how Gaia (spelled "Ge" in the following passage), Mother Earth herself, has supported the Titans in their battle with the Olympian intruders. The Giants have been defeated:

 

"When Ge learned of this, she sought a drug that would prevent their destruction even by mortal hands. But Zeus barred the appearance of Eos (the Dawn), Selene (the Moon), and Helios (the Sun), and chopped up the drug himself before Ge could find it."

 

—Apollodorus 1.34-38.

 

[edit]

[ughaibu]

Thanks for the definitions.

[neuroflux]

Im not going to break doen every little sentence i wrote for Infinite now. If you cannot understand what i am writing, then read it again.

My tone?

There is a difference between Having a intelligent dialog, and a one way converstion.Picking a part every little thing i wrote is annoying.

I came here to see if i could stir up a intelligent discussion on bridging Shamism and Science. because it is right now as we speak happening.

How we understand how our brains work-i.e. Neurotransmission,....and how the shamans worked there brains by using entheogens.

 

our brains, for the most part all run the same way, ....seritonin by day melatonin then DMT and pinoline by night, collectivly we spend billions of hours in this realm that i have brought up here.

A world that we just fall asleep and it all happens for us....BUT what if we could go there while we are awake?

And from personal experience, and studying i know this to be a fact.

And i am encouraged everytime to come back and share.

WHY?

SHARING IS CARING.

 

neuroflux.............................................................................:lol:

[ughaibu]

Neuroflux:

Are you complaining about lack of organised research into the effects of these drugs?

If so, why is this thread in the theology forum?

As you have listed above, pretty much all psychoactive drugs have a history as sacrements, do tryptamines have any special religious significance?

How is tryptamine shamanism socially relevant, as a religious concept, to the "Western collective Ego"?

[Pyrotex]

...It was like ... 13th dimensional millipedes saying themselves to themselves as they make love, and impossible Gordian knots dancing the jitterbug at a lyrical lightspeed: a gelatinous ballet of endlessly self-juxtaposing pirouettes. You realize all at once you have arrived and are now having darshan with this gigantically insectoid, otherworldly Oz...

Babbling. Incoherent, senseless, pre-adolescent babbling. Worthless, without real content, a waste of ASCII, empty of all meaning, pointless, destitute of reason, mindless, irrational and stupid.

 

And then, on the negative side...

[InfiniteNow]

First and foremost, let me point out the rules:

http://hypography.com/forums/?page=rules

 

1. In general, back up your claims by using links or references.
   
2. If you make strange claims, please provide proof or at least backup of some kind. If you fail to do so, or the backup you provide is not deemed adequate, the moderators may move your post to the Strange Claims forum.
   
3. If you want to refute someone's claims, please stay calm and point out where you think they went wrong, and what kind of proof you base your own opinion on.
   
4. Do not post links to other sites as proof of your claims without commenting what the relevant sites say and why they are important to the current discussion.
   
5. Statements like "I just know that this is the way it is" (especially when religion is being discussed) are considered ignorant and might be deleted.
   
6. If you ask for opinions, respect the replies you get.
   
7. It is generally a good idea not to spend all your time in only a few topics.
   
8. Do not endlessly show us that *your* theory is the *only* truth. And don't follow this up by making people look stupid for pointing out that there are other answers, especially if they provide links and resources. It will get you banned!
   
9. Rude and offensive behaviour is not tolerated and might lead to instant banning (at the discretion of the forum staff)
   

 

Im not going to break doen every little sentence i wrote for Infinite now. If you cannot understand what i am writing, then read it again.

My tone?

There is a difference between Having a intelligent dialog, and a one way converstion.Picking a part every little thing i wrote is annoying.

Nobody is forcing you to stay. If I've posted something, and somebody picks it apart, I would either support it intelligently or state clearly that I do not know.

 

I came here to see if i could stir up a intelligent discussion on bridging Shamism and Science. because it is right now as we speak happening.

How we understand how our brains work-i.e. Neurotransmission,....and how the shamans worked there brains by using entheogens.

 

our brains, for the most part all run the same way, ....seritonin by day melatonin then DMT and pinoline by night, collectivly we spend billions of hours in this realm that i have brought up here.

A world that we just fall asleep and it all happens for us....BUT what if we could go there while we are awake?

And from personal experience, and studying i know this to be a fact.

You know why I'm so hard on you? I've done and thought many of the things you referenced. I've also spent time doing research in Psychopharmacology, Perception, Cognition, and other mind sciences. I've worked in labs with numerous professors and grad students. I've done large amounts of reading into the workings of the human nervous system, on anatomical, neurological, physiological, as well as philosophical levels. I've also tried to broaden my knowledge by studying other topics like history, art, physics, mathematics, technology, and others.

 

If you want to be taken seriously, you need to be able to support your comments when people like myself poke holes in them. If you cannot, then you're completely doomed if you really want to bring your topic into a better light with the majority of members of the scientific community.

[Turtle]

Racoon's post #22 & neuroflex's post #23 (albeit long) contain more than enough science reference to justify this thread. As to where it belongs is up to argument as it is fitting to theology, social science, & medicine.

 

I have in the past challenged simple dialogs of psychoactive experiences, & I still feel as others do that it is not up to Hypography standards without any correlation to science. While this thread started with such a dialog, it has developed suitable science aspects to support its continuation.

:Whistle:

[neuroflux]

So, what scientific "facts" have i missed?

 

As far as the trip report goes, Have you ever heard of creative writing? Have you ever tried to explain something and been at a lost for words? I'm sure your familar with poerty. For myself when i read that, i thought it was amazingly written, it was fun to read.

I find it fun to describe things that you cannot find words for. Lighten up! Sometimes i even make up new words,,like floward, or mathemagickal, they sound neat.

 

The reason that i posted this in the theology section, is that these molecules address the issues that theology has been either exploring,translating,working with,preaching, or supressing for thousands of years.

Fear of the unknown is a common human behavior.fear of not being in control of ones Ego- and world.

And i have a feeling that these entheogens, are now and in the near future, going to help us to learn to create our realities better.

I really think that Terrence Mckenna's essay is a great place to ask questions from, He has a Academic Education, been all over the world, established a preservation gardens in hawaii, and been a great assett to raising questions an drawing attention to this experince, and how it works in our brains, he draws the scientific and the Archaic together well.

Like i stated earlier, besides Pasting article after article about this, ive tried to be as thurrow as possible and if ther is anything that i am missing that needs claification about the scientifc realm of DMT, and Psilocybin then id like to know.

And of course, as frusturating as it may seem, having people address this in the way that folks have here, helps me to be more on my ball better.

Please keep in mynd that although i enjoy science, i am an artist and a writer, and i enjoy being creative with my posts, lingusticly and idea wise.

I posted Terrence's essay in the Where do angels come from thread.

 

Man is it hot out! I think were at 40+ out............................................:Whistle:

[ughaibu]

So, your thesis is that imbalances of brain chemicals are a leading cause of mystical experience(?)

[Mercedes Benzene]

I knew Orby was gonna have a field day with this one.

:Whistle:

[Turtle]

So, your thesis is that imbalances of brain chemicals are a leading cause of mystical experience(?)

 

It is premature & unsubstantiated to use the term imbalance inasmuch no one is in agreement on what balanced is.

And i have a feeling that these entheogens, are now and in the near future, going to help us to learn to create our realities better.

 

I disagree with this. In part because these psychoative agents evolved with & within us & yet remain marginal, and further because meditative practices have the same facility to induce altered states as do the psychoactives.

It is fallacious to suggest everyone needs (or can even tolerate) the same medicine.:Whistle:

[ughaibu]

Turtle:

Fair enough, but neither is there agreement about what constitute religious or spiritual experiences. These factors make it difficult to see what this thread attempts to address. I'm trying to find a meaning, beyond the statement of the author's preference in drugs.

[TheBigDog]

neuroflux, I am now engaging you in constuctive conversation.

 

First off, in post 23 you cut and pasted the entire post from Wiki without giving credit to the source. Please take the time to correct this oversight.

 

It is my experience that any vision that can be experienced with "enthogens" can also be experienced without them. That it is a matter of talent/practice/skill/focus or what have you that people have such experiences without the aid of drugs. This being the case how is it possible to give sole credit to the drugs for awakening the human mind? (this may not have been implicitly stated by you, but I am taking it as implied)

 

In sports a person who takes substances like HGH or steroids, or straight blood dopes (separating one's own blood and injecting platelets back in to increase the red blood cell count and get better oxygen usage) is considered a cheat and can be fined, banned etc. Even though some of those things are "natural" and have historic acceptance in many societies. Now equate that with a person who bids on a contract for art, and then takes mind altering drugs to get into a state of mind to produce that art. Are they cheating? If they cannot perform their art without taking those drugs, yet others CAN, should they be allowed to be an artist?

 

You have stated that your purpose is to promote the acceptance of shamanism within the scientific community. Fine. But be aware that as you have already been told, and I am sure you already know, science is a method, not just a community. What is the science you are proposing for mind altering drugs? What experimentation will be done, and to what benefit. You have spoken of spiritualism and visions and such, but to what purpose, and under what conditions?

 

Many cultures have used mind altering drugs throughout history. Why is that alone an argument of their wisdom? Many cultures practiced blood letting to cure disease, and cannibalism as a sign of domination over enemies, and human sacrifice for favor from the Gods - should we do those things too? And while some of these ancient cultures stumbled upon good solutions to problems that they faced, for the most part we are far better off today in every way than they ever were in the past. Why is it that without fail those who seek the legalization of drugs for the purpose of "wizardry" or "shamanism" see history through selectivly rose colored glasses, and credit such wisdom to the spiritual leaders of such primitive and naive cultures? Where is the history of the shaman and the wizards to judge them beyond the fact that they liked getting high? What did an altered mind state among the spiritual leaders accomplish to elevate the primitive cultures these people lived in and to better their lives?

 

Bill

[neuroflux]

It has been suggested by researchers that scitzophrenia is caused by DMT.

 

Through science we can understand, how our brains work.

 

By understanding how DMT works in our brain, (through science) we can now utilize it too enter these states, and explore them.

This is beyond just a drug experince, And i guess its here where isay, that in order to fully grasp the importance behind this mind state, one has to actually experince it.

How this state of mynd is going to evolve us..im proposing that it will ultimatly lead to a fuller understanding of our presence here on earth, and death, it would appear that these entites are trying to engage the experincer in a dialog, and teach something,,,....

 

 

The knowledge comes from the plant queendom, and the shaman points the way.

The feeling that this place is VERY important, and that this state is very important cannot be stressed enough during the experince. HOW we use this knowldege once we have figured it out, is up to us.

 

Dmt, is nurologically safe, non-addictive, and from the research that has been done, respectivly by Dr. Rick Strassmann, It plays a crucial role at 49 days during fetal development, at birth, during deep dreaming, and later at death.

It also is a very sacred substance to the peoples of South America as a means of obtaining knowledge.

 

And it bekons me to discover its magic,,,,,,,,

 

neuroflux

[InfiniteNow]

wonderful things have been outlawed,

and propoganda has been unleashed to make sure

nobody touches the spined thing in the ground,

or the psilocybe cubensis reaching out of cow dung

just around the corner.

This is an example of a wonderful conversation to be had in social sciences. You are right that these things were legal, and once the administrations felt that drug culture equated to anti-Vietnam culture and declared that psychedelic drug users were the enemy they began persecuting them. Why? We can smoke/drink/inhale [math]CO^2[/math] exhaust from our factories and cars and planes... but not eat plants which are beautiful, green, and leafy. Great dialogue to be had!

 

Problem is, it never stays on topic, never proposes solutions, and tends all too often to turn into a long series of rants. That's why the Mods (okay, maybe just me) get so frustrated with those interested in such topics. The lack of focus.

 

I don't mean to come off as kill joy. I'm not against these thoughts and these possibilities. I'm also no hypocrite. Just asking that you present your ideas intelligently and try not to trail off tangentially with every post.

[InfiniteNow]

...and further because meditative practices have the same facility to induce altered states as do the psychoactives...

I was waiting to make this same point, hoping that someone else would before me. Thanks Turtle. This is a hugely important factor for consideration. Perhaps the growth is more intense and lasting when done without the influence of external factors. I don't know?

 

It would be interesting (to me anyway) to hear comparisons between the reports of a psychedlic explorer and the reports of a matured veteran of focussed meditation. See if there are parellels or differences in some key measure.