Plant Shamanism: The one the Religion cant give you....

[ughaibu]

KickAssClown: Your position on this appears to be based on a misunderstanding. Nobody has said "drugs are bad", the nearest you'll find to that is Boerseun saying being stoned all the time isn't "cool", and this point wasn't denied by Neuroflux.

[IDMclean]

Perhaps, though I don't think so. Which says little, except that I have been told by objective outside sources on multipul occassions that I am a keen observer of the internal being. Which says something to me.

 

The reduced approximation of the arguements boil down to that basically. Though it is not directly stated. It is elluded to and implied by the very structure of a number of the statements posted so far.

 

Though I won't deny that being stoned all the time is not cool. Moderation in all actions, even in moderation itself.

[InfiniteNow]

It's funny to me. I feel that this dialogue has improved over the past several pages, yet there is still expressed dissatisfaction with it.

 

Turtle has raised, repeatedly, an amazingly important point, my understanding of which is that the substances do not offer anything new to the user. Whatever comes out of the induced experience was already there.

 

This is part of the reason that it could be equally bad for society if everyone engaged in activities such as these. Many people are frustrated, insecure, anxious, lonely, and angry. The drugs only emphasize these.

 

I personally would always try to be around people I cared about, and in a positive state of mind before chopping down or putting a piece of paper in my mouth... whatever. That's part of the reason the experience was so positive. But what if I were cold, and hungry, and sick... or my neighbor's dog was barking and the air conditioner was broken in the middle of this heat wave.... yadda yadda yadda... The experience would only be intensified, and that's clearly not positive.

 

Clearly, I've left out the characteristics like curiousity, love, connection, creativity, naivity, and other such child-like exploratory attritubes which would add to the benefit of society if expanded. But for every light there is a dark, and it is mistaken to believe that nothing but good would come from everyone's use of pschoactive agents.

 

The difference between meditation and more acute drug induced experiences has been discussed. Perhaps it's a bit like an amplitude and wavelength issue. The drugs offer a higher amplitude of experience which quickly passes, but mediation offers a longer wavelength of experience with covers a greater expanse of time... Perhaps nothing more than an artful analogy, but possible.

 

My stance is that the drugs do not put anything there which wasn't already, meaning that the experience can be had without them.

 

Got a good reason for taking the easy way out

Got a good reason for taking the easy way out now

 

She was a day tripper, a one way ticket yea

It took me so long to find out, and I found out

 

She's a big teaser, she took me half the way there

She's a big teaser, she took me half the way there now

 

Tried to please her, she only played one night stands

Tried to please her, she only played one night stands now

 

She was a day tripper, a Sunday driver yea

Took me so long to find out, and I found out

[ughaibu]

I would say the subject matter of this thread comes under psychonautics, not shamanism.

[Michaelangelica]

One of my favourite books is Tales of a Shaman's Apprentice: An Ethnobotanist Searches for New Medicines in the Rain Forest (Paperback)

by Mark J. Plotkin a Harvard plant-nut.

I wrote a review of it once but it has disappeared into cyberspace. It is a great read. A cross between a travelogue, a botany book, and a spy thriller.

 

The work they are doing at Harvard to preserve the knowlege of the S.A. shaman is monumental and deserves all the support we can give it.

 

Shaman have lost much prestige in tribal groups because they cannot cure the 'new' (newly introduced)western diseases. As their status declines no one wants to become an apprentice consequently the oral tradition is lost. Plotkin likens that to the burning of a medieval library.

Plotkin is constantly amazed at the botanical skill of the shaman. He sites one example of the shaman telling him two vines were different. Plotkin as a botanist could see no differences but politely agreed.

When Plotkin got back to Harvard, a detailed microscopic and genetic analysis, revealed that the plants were indeed different. He was amazed.

 

Harvard is attempting to support Shaman's Apprentices in traditional communities so the knowledge can be passed on.

 

I have some old rare books in my library (which is still in boxes- I moved 18 months ago) by a 1940's upper-middle-class US banker who's name escapes me.

It was his ground breaking research on mushrooms that led to the re-discovery of hallucinogens. It was he who first proposed the so called, poorly nick-named, "Stoned Ape" theory. He felt that much of our spirituality and even thinking may have come with experiments with hallucinogenic mushrooms.

 

I did post on another thread about a patient of mine, when I was psychiatric nurse, who was on a permananent LSD trip due to over use of hallucinogens.

It is a cautionary tale.

The shamans approach hallucinogenic plants with much reverence.

It is not a recreation.

Sometimes they fast for days before taking the plants.

They may mix many plants together so to buffer some of the ill effects of the halucinogenic plants. Sometimes their concoctions elude our science.

 

Dr James Duke sometimes runs field trips to the Amazon to look at herbal uses of plants (as do others) I wish sometimes I lived a little closer to Brazil

 

If you are into the sharemarket you might like to look at the profile of a company called Shaman Pharmaceuticals in the USA.

[Queso]

I would say the subject matter of this thread comes under psychonautics, not shamanism.

 

So would I,

and it seems to me that now that we know that it's all in our head,

and that we aren't REALLY travelling to other worlds

it's as if our whole relationship with these plants has changed.

 

Shamen do still exist~

I suppose that I, as a psychonaut,

was taught about these plants by the all holy

Internet.

The only person I am healing is myself,

which I am also slowly destroying.

 

Born. Learned Meditation. Did drugs. Did drugs and meditated. Meditated. Died.

 

All the beauty in-between.

 

It's true, psychedelics amplify your existence;

Thoughts, actions, feelings, senses, et al~

 

That's why It's alllllll about setting.

Alone in the forest, or in the forest with a best friend or two, has always been my preferred setting.

 

Ahhh, the redwoods always allowed my mind to wander so eloquently fluid...

 

everything symmetrical, pointing toward the understanding of the big picture,

with so many holes

where one lone butterfly would pass thru

and become a cloud of butterflies

sparking the most intense smile my face could carry.

 

Michaelangelica, I believe you are talking about Terrence McKenna.

Actually, I'm certain you are. The stoned-ape theory is so great.:lol:

[neuroflux]

Im gonna re read this thread, the computer here at home doesnt allow me to sit for long times....I am very impressed at how this thread has taken off,:lol: I wated to mention, that although i havent mentioned much about the Healing aspects of shamanism, I probably should have..The shamans dont just dont sit around and get stoned.

the way you see this world with your eyes, allows one to "Peer" into the body, the shaman can actualy see the illness, and what causes it. Jeremy Narby in his book, "The Cosmic Serpent" proposes that the shamans take their focus down to a molecular level under the influence of DMT. If one studies the art of the ayahuscaro's, one can see many drawings DNA strands, Cells, and other micro biological processes. Although many tribes who use the DMT snuff, use it recreationally as well as spiritually. why? From my own experinces, DMT is very NOVEL in fact, i would put money on it being the most NOVEL and most Amazing experience one can have.

 

When one gets to these realms, One has to be careful not to end up thinking that their all of a sudden better than everyone else, or know more.Which i come across in Yogic circles. There is definitly something to say about someone who can drench their astral nerve endings in DMT by themselves.

BUT. I have never ever met anyone who can decribe the world i go to using DMT who has meditated. In fact, i gave dMT to a Meditator who swore he was "enlightened" And it scared the pants off him.

Im sure that certain tekniques of meditation probably release other opiate type neurotransmitters, but i betting it takes some real practise to get the brain to release its storage of DMT.

Another thing we should take into consideration, is that our pineal glands calcify, due to the flouride in our water.

Im thinking that we may need the plant DMT to help us.

many questions. Im gonna go back and re read this thread more thurrowly.

Peace

neuroflux

[Queso]

Peace indeed~

 

Could you ellaborate for me...

 

Our pineal glands calcify due to the flouride in our water??????

 

What does that mean??

 

Both biologically and theoretically...

[InfiniteNow]

Could you ellaborate for me...

 

Our pineal glands calcify due to the flouride in our water??????

 

What does that mean??

Good question. I too immediately thought of General Jack Ripper...

 

Now why don't you just take it easy, Group Captain, and please make me a drink of grain alcohol and rainwater, and help yourself to whatever you'd like.

[neuroflux]

check out these links about the pineal gland.

 

http://www.crystalinks.com/thirdeyepineal.html

 

http://www.ayurlight.com/pages/pineal.htm

 

And Floride and the Pineal

 

http://www.fluoridealert.org/health/pineal/

 

that may help.

 

neuroflux

[Michaelangelica]

 

Michaelangelica, I believe you are talking about Terrence McKenna.

Actually, I'm certain you are. The stoned-ape theory is so great.:eek2:

No he was writing in the 40s when McKenna was born. He was also a pillar of the Establishment. I wish I could remember! His research was exclusively on mushrooms. His books are collectors pieces now, worth a fortune. it is a pitty no one (like Dover) has re-printed him as he is little known because of the scarcity of his books.

But thanks for the link. What an interesting man was Terrence McKenna.

--

[neuroflux]

For those of you interested going deeper into DMT, this book is a MUST read.

 

 

DMT the Spirit Molecule pdf free download

Open this link and then right click on the book cover to save to your computer.

http://www.resist.com.au/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1924

__________________

 

ENJOY...!!!!!!!!

neuroflux

[Queso]

For those of you interested going deeper into DMT, this book is a MUST read.

 

 

DMT the Spirit Molecule pdf free download

Open this link and then right click on the book cover to save to your computer.

http://www.resist.com.au/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1924

__________________

 

ENJOY...!!!!!!!!

neuroflux

 

I've got that book sitting by my bed...

A friend let me borrow it a long time ago,

someday, I promise, I will return it.

[neuroflux]

to paint a picture with words describing the LOGOS is a "I am lost for words moment.

My tattoo artist, is a brilliant artist, who is very familar with the hyper realms, and is currently working with Dreamworks, where he is going to animate a entheogenic experince for a up and comming movie.

 

 

http://www.spectraleyes.com

 

This is his gallery, check it out.

 

neuroflux

[Queso]

That guy is incredible!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

He's your tattoo artist?

 

Goddamn man, you're lucky. I'd love to work with him on my skin.

 

and WOW, that's going to be a trippy movie.

[neuroflux]

Moses,DMT, and the quest for Transcendence.

 

http://www.zauberpilz.com/mushheaven.htm

 

 

NF......................................:)

[InfiniteNow]

One trick ponies get sent to the glue factory.