Jump to content
Science Forums

Africa, what to do?


jkellmd

Recommended Posts

 

Capitalism, once again, resonates with that most fundamental human trait, namely Greed. You don't have to like it, but that's what humans are, deep down inside.

The greedy gorilla grabbing for all the bananas certainly underlies our primate psyche and is without question the primal drive that ensures the survival of the species. But mankind is a supernatural being. We tower above Nature. There is no other consciousness on the planet remotely like ours. We are the one and only "chosen son". The fundamental difference that separates us from our closest cousins is the ethic of sharing. The sharing seed is there in all atomic associations. All mothers in the wild do it. But man has taken that ethic to a supernatural level.

 

I told you that I lived with Bushmen family. One day I took a piece of candy and gave it to a youngster. Most of the group was still out hunting and gathering. He kept that little piece until they all got back. All twenty five in the group got a tiny taste of it. That is the way Stone Age families live and why mankind has become such a successful animal over the past 100,000 generations. Sharing and caring ensured the survival of the elderly - who in turn were able to pass on their wisdoms. Each time one of the men in the family came home with a springbok - I watched how much personal power he got for himself among the group, by sharing the portions out with meticulous fairness - and I saw how that sharing lesson sank home in the younger ones watching him.

 

Getting that sharing ethic back to surface is not easy. Bushman families work hard at it as soon a three year old is weaned from the breast. They warn the young one that if they keep being selfish, Nature herself will reach out and punish. It is amazing to see how Nature gives a hand - sometimes within minutes of a naughty transgression. Animism is a base of instinctive superstition. All Bushmen are born with it. They believe that Nature is Conscious and that She operates via the universal laws of cause and effect. The whole family gets a chuckle when a naughty kid gets jabbed by a thorn, stubs a toe or gets nipped by an insect. They know exactly why it happened. And after a while and many synchronous scrapes later, so does the kid. By the age seven, he or she is very careful about their group behavior.

 

That self-consciousness cannot be evoked in a chimpanzee - only in man. It takes the full seven years to do it and superstition is an essential ally. I tried that same Bushman training technique on all my kids for the first seven years of their lives. I warned them that the tokolosh is out there waiting to bite them if they were selfish or disrespectful. Over the years we have all seen how magically Nature worked with us. I never had to lay a hand on them. Nature did all the punishing (and gave all the rewards for good behavior) By age five none of them would come crying to mommy - they knew they deserved it. It has worked like a charm with every single one of them. They fall over each other in getting a charge out of sharing. Not one of them will ever become a criminal with a chip on the shoulder for an imagined wrong by their fellow men. All pain was their own responsibility. As a result they are guilt-free, clear-eyed and as bright as new pennies and have never given their parents a moment's heartache.

 

Mankind is not motivated by greed. He is best motivated by giving. Ask any old, previously greedy, philanthropist, and he will tell you how right the Bushman is and how wrong Wall Street is. The Bushman instinctively realize that life has no individual significance, unless they all taste the candy together and are then able to experience the collective dynamic of a mutually shared experience. As they say, if a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody to see it fall.......

 

Human Greed will drive the economy of a constitutional democracy, with labour laws ensuring that labourers are not exploited or forced to work in unacceptable conditions. Obviously, there will be those that will find a way of ducking the system, and run sweat-shops, but it will be up to the government to patrol and enforce its laws.

 

And so more and more laws will be enacted and grow from a few pages into huge libraries that not even supreme court judges can find unanimous agreement on and governments will keep growing and hire ever more police and build ever larger prisons and when will that massive waste of money and effort ever end? It already eats up 60% of our GNP

 

Economies tending towards Socialism and eventually leaning all the way right over to Communism, move further and further away from approximating human nature - and end up having less and less chance of succeeding. The last 100 years or so have proved this conclusively. Even now, China is achieving remarkable success in economic growth simply by systematically turning its economy away from communism towards a more "natural" capitalist system.

And when China and India are in full production and we have another three billion hooked into ran-away consumerism, where is the money going to come from to deal with the increased impact on the environment and replace finite resources?

 

Education as you propose it, should work, but will not make any difference if no jobs exist. If I'm an African, and receive a degree in accounting, what would I do after I've got my degree? There are no jobs, so I'd emigrate to

Education as I propose it has no place for accountants, or lawyers, or insurance agents or salesmen, or politicians, or policemen or mickey mouse corporations or a host of other meaningless human occupations based on making money for no other reason than making and servicing it. It will have real jobs for educators, agriculturalists, craftsmen, civil engineers, scientists and technologists - all working hard to keep food on the table, a roof over our heads, energy at a finger tip and the golf courses nice and green.

 

 

Europe or the States or anywhere else where my skills would be appreciated. Unless a first tier of entrepreneurs have been established, say, a few guys who clubbed in to establish a tyre and exhaust workshop. They now need a bookkeeper. So, I'd stay and work for them, and be paid top dollar because there are precious few bookkeepers around. I now receive a decent wage, and become empowered as a consumer. All of a sudden, the shops in the area start making more money, because of guys like me. Now they need more bookkeepers. Also, with the increase in profit, they become bigger consumers with more disposable cash, meaning they can expand and create more vacancies, etc.

Been there. Done that. Too much BS.

 

Spending money on education in the short term will only benefit the countries these people will emigrate to.

 

There is not enough money on the planet to build an educational infrastructure in Africa that can be anywhere comparable to the ones we have in the developed world. So we have to go in a completely different direction here. Parents teaching primary education at home with the help of the internet is the obvious first step. Technically advanced education is another matter. Students have to be taken out Africa and trained abroad and then repatriated with enough skills and equipment to get started at home. My non-profit Global Stewardship Foundation. for instance, is trying to raise enough consciousness to build the world's first global stewardship training campus, for exactly that purpose.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One possible idea is the United States of Africa. One country and one main culture that is an analgom of all the best of the tribal. It is easier to develop and distribute resources on a continental scale. Maybe this can be combined with a Youth Corps from first world western countries.

Now you are talking! My kids call that The Globals Stewardship Corps.

They will first be trained to deal with the large-scale global engineering cjhallneges that face us in the 21st Century, before being assigned their tasks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Will You All Stop Fretting Out There!!!

 

Mother Nature Will Sort It As She Always Has Done, And, As Usual, She Won't Be Nice About It!

 

We Cant Go On For Ever Wittering On About Slavery,....it Happened,....quite A Few Countries Were Involved,....including The Arabs, We Can't Turn Back The Clock,.....live With It And Move On!

 

How You Are Going To Sort Out Racism Is Beyond Me,....i Have Come To The Conclusion That The Vast Majority Of The Human Race Is Racist,.....it Seems To Be Hard Wired Into Our Psychological Make Up!........( A Bit Like The "god" Thing) Is This Natures Way Of Protecting The Different Species?

 

I'm Darned If I Know The Answer To That One!

 

And I'm Darned Sure That No One Out There Knows It Either!

 

What With Aids,...... The Potential Of Avian Flu,..... Desertification, ...etc, Etc,......global Warming,....don't Be So Impatient,......i'm Sure Mother Nature Is Dying To Give The Cockroaches A Chance,.........although, As I've Said Before,...why Politicians Should Be Given Another Chance Is Beyond Me!

 

Regards To All!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One possible idea is the United States of Africa. One country and one main culture that is an analgom of all the best of the tribal. It is easier to develop and distribute resources on a continental scale. Maybe this can be combined with a Youth Corps from first world western countries.

 

Unless this starts off using a concept more akin to the European Union, it would require that existing countries be conquered :confused: Countries are allowed to join the union only if certain standards are met, but doing so allows for substantial benefits, access to a much larger market, and perhaps most importantly at first, a unified front to dissuade aggressors.

 

Something like this might work.

 

Several "Seed" countries would need to be convinced first. They would need to have an economic infrastructure that would be desired by other countries and people in the area. To accomplish that would require the cooperation and support of advanced nations, both in education and funding.

 

From there, one of the most powerful teaching methods available will need to be put in place. Propaganda. A system designed around creating an African "Identity" that supersedes the tribal, village, or family identity. It should be able to point to existing countries that are part of the "African Union" to show what can be done.

 

"Greed" motivates the individual to contribute, and encouraging it (within boundaries) is essential to a strong economy. While mankind has altruistic tendencies, they only exist in sufficient quantities to allow us to work well on a social level, and should not be considered a driving force of the masses.

 

"Education" awakens people to possibilities and ideas. An educated people are not nearly so tolerant of oppressors, either internal or external. An educated people also look farther into the future, with all the consequences that brings.

 

Unfortunately, association with the United States can have polarizing effects on people... they either love or hate them, and that is the last thing you want. (hence the suggestion of using a "Union" rather then "United states")

 

As the EU has shown, these strategies can be very powerful tools for change. As the union grows, so do the benefits and influence. Many countries would join up simply for the protection made available to all members.

 

It has to start somewhere, it has to start at a manageable size, and it has to be overwhelming in it's initial success.

 

How is that for a crazy dream :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Will You All Stop Fretting Out There!!!

 

Mother Nature Will Sort It As She Always Has Done, And, As Usual, She Won't Be Nice About It!

 

Hello Kennth. Fretting about our fellow man might be considered one of the defining features of mankind. Mother nature would take care of things in her own harsh way if allowed, but then again, we are not a race that accepts her tyranny easily. You might even say it is human nature to rail against the injustices of mother nature.

 

 

We Cant Go On For Ever Wittering On About Slavery,....it Happened,....quite A Few Countries Were Involved,....including The Arabs, We Can't Turn Back The Clock,.....live With It And Move On!

 

?? Except for an attempted hijack of this thread by one person, this discussion is more about solutions to the woes of Africa then about slavery or racism. :)

 

How You Are Going To Sort Out Racism Is Beyond Me,....i Have Come To The Conclusion That The Vast Majority Of The Human Race Is Racist,.....it Seems To Be Hard Wired Into Our Psychological Make Up!........( A Bit Like The "god" Thing) Is This Natures Way Of Protecting The Different Species?

 

I'm Darned If I Know The Answer To That One!

 

And I'm Darned Sure That No One Out There Knows It Either!

 

What With Aids,...... The Potential Of Avian Flu,..... Desertification, ...etc, Etc,......global Warming,....don't Be So Impatient,......i'm Sure Mother Nature Is Dying To Give The Cockroaches A Chance,.........although, As I've Said Before,...why Politicians Should Be Given Another Chance Is Beyond Me!

 

Regards To All!

 

I tend to agree that many aspects of racism, like religion, are hard wired into us. Seperating the "Them" from the "Us" is a significant evolutionary trait, and not one to be easily removed. I think that the best way of getting around that particular problem will not involve removing that aspect from humanity (it really is a part of us), but in changing what we view as "Us" and "Them". Once that viewpoint change is made, and the human race is all there is, the racism issue becomes moot. Easier said then done though :confused:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Unless this starts off using a concept more akin to the European Union, it would require that existing countries be conquered :confused: Countries are allowed to join the union only if certain standards are met, but doing so allows for substantial benefits, access to a much larger market, and perhaps most importantly at first, a unified front to dissuade aggressors.

 

Something like this might work.

 

Several "Seed" countries would need to be convinced first. They would need to have an economic infrastructure that would be desired by other countries and people in the area. To accomplish that would require the cooperation and support of advanced nations, both in education and funding.

 

How is that for a crazy dream :)

 

Well it is a dream that has been being worked on for like 40 years now.

 

From 2000:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2000/09/0921_africa.html

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/829060.stm

 

From wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Union

 

and a link to one of the main pages

http://www.africa-union.org/root/au/index/index.htm

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One way to bring fourth world countries into the modern world is to repeat the industrial revolution from scratch. If everyone goes down there with modern technology, a class system will result and capitalism will not take care of the needy. Socialism will take away initiative.

 

The way I see it, begin the economic base with simple industry using natural resources like water power to produce textiles in an old fashion labor intensive way. Many of these people have little modern skills and practice, simple tasks may be the catalysts for change and their first jobs. Textiles means cotton farms, railroads, mining jobs, etc,If culture starts simple, cultural needs starter simplet, and social perception of economic differences is much closer. The greedy owners will exploit the worker. This will provide a push toward positive social change like labor unions, etc.. This formula worked once, it can work again.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well it is a dream that has been being worked on for like 40 years now.

 

From 2000:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2000/09/0921_africa.html

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/829060.stm

 

From wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Union

 

and a link to one of the main pages

http://www.africa-union.org/root/au/index/index.htm

 

:confused:

VERY interesting links Cedars. Once again, I piped in before becoming decently informed. It appears the concept i put forward is already in place, and that is WONDERFUL news. The concept is sound, but on a much larger scale then I had initially anticipated. That will make it VERY difficult for the leaders, and AI wish them all the luck. I suspect that progress will be slow, but not insignificant. If they can get the AIDS epidemic under control then we may yet see another powerhouse enter the global market in another generation.

 

It would seem the "What do do about Africa" thread was moot, as Africa is taking care of herself.

 

Or??

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I feel good about the shared vision. The problem, as the concerned leadership sees it is corruption, exploitation, lack of educated leadership. Much of the problem starts and stays at the top. Maybe what the world needs to do is use a balanced international scales of justice that does not protect corrupt and incomptetent leadership. There may be a honor code among world thieves, which I am not aware of.

 

An honest person has a hard time seeing how one corrupt dicator is greater than thousands of poor people. The equation may be more complicated than that. Maybe international corrupt and incompetent polititians, plus corrupt and very competent business men, lobbyist, money, plus corrupt dictators and there entourage of corrupt officials is greater than thousands of poor people.

 

It is rather illogical that known tyrants are given international protection because of their national leadership status. That makes little sense. If Hitler had been snubbed out early we may have saved tens of millions, yet international leadership protects each other's rights to exploit within the confines of national laws. Such international protection may be based on the honor code of the international thieves union. " I you recognize my right to shear my sheep I will recognize yours. But, If I want to shear your shepp, I will pay you a fair market price"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Unless this starts off using a concept more akin to the European Union, it would require that existing countries be conquered :) Countries are allowed to join the union only if certain standards are met, but doing so allows for substantial benefits, access to a much larger market, and perhaps most importantly at first, a unified front to dissuade aggressors.

 

How is that for a crazy dream ;)

 

It is a beautiful dream, but unfortunately it is crazy. The idea of a United States of Africa, if we allow social and spiritual progression to take place as it did in Europe, is about a 1000 years ahead of its time. It would take me ten pages to list the barriers that lie ahead. The OAU can meet for centuries and never get it off the ground.

 

The only solution is outside help. Very quick and very soon. Not simply money, but trained people with resources, resolve and international commitment - and of course a general overhaul plan. With 14 generations of white colonial ancestreal history and 99,000 generations of black ancestral behind me, I have submitted one, but nobody seems interested, nor able to submit one of their own.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The greedy gorilla grabbing for all the bananas certainly underlies our primate psyche and is without question the primal drive that ensures the survival of the species. But mankind is a supernatural being. We tower above Nature. There is no other consciousness on the planet remotely like ours. We are the one and only "chosen son".

Nope. There is fundamentally no difference between humans and zebras. Zebras have evolved black and white lines over its body to break up its shape, confusing predators in the process, and humans have developed intelligence as a survival mechanism. Intelligence as we know it, is neither less nor more valuable as a survival mechanism. Looking at our vast nuclear arsenals and stockpiles, where humans have (through this much-vaunted intelligence) developed the ability to kill all life on planet Earth as we know it a few times over, it might even be said that intelligence is *less* beneficial to a species as, say, black and white lines. But we are in no way removed from nature because of it.

The fundamental difference that separates us from our closest cousins is the ethic of sharing. The sharing seed is there in all atomic associations. All mothers in the wild do it. But man has taken that ethic to a supernatural level.

In what way, and what do you mean with 'supernatural', in this sense? The rest of your post dealing with 'sharing', for instance

"...Each time one of the men in the family came home with a springbok - I watched how much personal power he got for himself among the group, by sharing the portions out with meticulous fairness - and I saw how that sharing lesson sank home in the younger ones watching him"

only serves to illustrate "sharing" being done for personal gain, the "personal power" the individual gains through sharing being the prime mover here, which, once again, can be drawn back to normal human greed. I fail to see any altruism here.

The whole family gets a chuckle when a naughty kid gets jabbed by a thorn, stubs a toe or gets nipped by an insect. They know exactly why it happened. And after a while and many synchronous scrapes later, so does the kid. By the age seven, he or she is very careful about their group behavior.

What lesson was learnt here? Don't step on thorns. What does this have to do with group behaviour? If the Bushman believes that he got hurt by a thorn because of some social mishap in the group, might he not be surprised to find that thorns stop hurting him the moment he starts looking where he's going?

That self-consciousness cannot be evoked in a chimpanzee - only in man. It takes the full seven years to do it and superstition is an essential ally. I tried that same Bushman training technique on all my kids for the first seven years of their lives. I warned them that the tokolosh is out there waiting to bite them if they were selfish or disrespectful.

I don't quite agree with you on the self-consciousness bit. Whether they are self-conscious depends solely on your yardstick. Chimps recognize themselves in mirrors, which is one of the famous tests for self-consciousness. As far as we know, there are only a few species able to do this, chimps and dolphins being two apart from Man.

But I digress.

I'm glad and happy for you that utilising the Tokolosh was an effective training tool for your kids, however, I don't think confusing your kids as far as causality is concerned is very helpful. Indeed, I think your approach might even be a source of great potential psychological damage in your kids, seeing as even if they are meticulous in sharing and respect, they will still inevitably bump their toes or step on thorns. And then they're gonna think that even with them sharing and respecting as much as they can, they're still not good enough, and the Tokolosh is out to get them. I'm glad it worked out for you, but it is by no means a rearing technique that I can endorse.

Over the years we have all seen how magically Nature worked with us. I never had to lay a hand on them. Nature did all the punishing (and gave all the rewards for good behavior) By age five none of them would come crying to mommy - they knew they deserved it.

Bloody hell. This is akin to your child asking :

Kid: "Daddy, why is it raining?"

MagnetMan: "Because Jesus is crying"

Kid: "Why is Jesus crying?"

MagnetMan: "Because of something you did..."

Good thing you're not living in Tornado alley, or some other place prone to natural disasters! Your kids would've freaked out!

Mankind is not motivated by greed. He is best motivated by giving. Ask any old, previously greedy, philanthropist, and he will tell you how right the Bushman is and how wrong Wall Street is.

Of course that is what an old, previously greedy philanthropist would say. That is why he's a philanthropist. Your sample is by no means representative of the human species - for every philanthropist, there are a million other humans. Ask them what they think of Wall Street, and Capitalism in general.

And so more and more laws will be enacted and grow from a few pages into huge libraries that not even supreme court judges can find unanimous agreement on and governments will keep growing and hire ever more police and build ever larger prisons and when will that massive waste of money and effort ever end? It already eats up 60% of our GNP

Strawman argument. Whatever you proposes will need laws to enact or protect it as well, the only alternative is a lawless anarchy.

And when China and India are in full production and we have another three billion hooked into ran-away consumerism, where is the money going to come from to deal with the increased impact on the environment and replace finite resources?

If China and India contributes another three billion relatively well-off consumers to the global economy, it should be obvious where the money will come from. They will pay taxes like the rest of us.

Education as I propose it has no place for accountants, or lawyers, or insurance agents or salesmen, or politicians, or policemen or mickey mouse corporations or a host of other meaningless human occupations based on making money for no other reason than making and servicing it.

I don't recall you mentioning what should be taught and what shouldn't be taught as part of your 'education' drive. If, however, you think you can ignore the functional key elements of Western society, the skilled individuals who make the world go round with their training in, amongst others, accountancy, law, insurance (risk management), sales, the policing of laws, or the running and management of 'mickey mouse' corporations, you are living in an idealist cloud coo-coo land.

It will have real jobs for educators, agriculturalists, craftsmen, civil engineers, scientists and technologists - all working hard to keep food on the table, a roof over our heads, energy at a finger tip and the golf courses nice and green.

Educators, agriculturalists, craftsmen, civil engineers, scientists and technologists are all absolutely useless and will not be able to perform a single stitch of work if not for the support structure of accountants, lawyers, risk managers, trained sales people, well-trained policemen, or in the absence of so-called 'mickey mouse' corporations. If you really, really do believe that they can, then I'm afraid you don't have the first idea how the world works. Relax - it's not a bad thing being an idealist, but Africa wants practical answers, not dreams.

Been there. Done that. Too much BS.

BS? Can you supply some backing to this statement? Or is it just a hit-and-run attack?

There is not enough money on the planet to build an educational infrastructure in Africa that can be anywhere comparable to the ones we have in the developed world. So we have to go in a completely different direction here. Parents teaching primary education at home with the help of the internet is the obvious first step.

Been a while since you've been in Africa last? Your 'obvious first step' assumes the availability of computers, internet connectivity in squatter camps, electricity, all these things that are normally supplied by crafty salespeople from 'mickey mouse' corporations. Once again, I think practical solutions should receive precedence over unrealistic dreams.

Also - I don't think you're entirely correct in your take on African educational institutions. We have a few universities in SA that are world leaders in their respective fields. Heart research, mining, geology, anthropology comes to mind. I don't think that counts as not 'anywhere comparable'.

Technically advanced education is another matter. Students have to be taken out Africa and trained abroad and then repatriated with enough skills and equipment to get started at home.

LOL!!! You should get back in touch with your roots, brother! What in the world would you think the chances are of taking an African, stuck in poverty in some non-descript African country to, say, the US for the training you propose, only to send the guy back after he qualified? He's seen the 'good life' now! Last week, at the Commonwealth Games, a few African athletes have simply disappeared. Turns out they have used the Commonwealth Games as an excuse to get out of their countries, and have now applied for asylum. You can't be serious, MagnetMan. Your 'students' will desert in droves, applying for asylum in whichever country they would be trained in!

My non-profit Global Stewardship Foundation. for instance, is trying to raise enough consciousness to build the world's first global stewardship training campus, for exactly that purpose.

Good luck. I hope you're not using Hypography and these science forums in general as a spamming board for your Foundation, or your book Psyche-Genetics. This is, after all, a 'science' forum.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

it would seem that any problem should be addresssed in a reasonable way if one intends to solve the problem.

1. list the reasons for the problem.

2. list the possible solutions to the problem.

3. institute the measures that are doable to attack the problem.

if you are to solve a problem, you cannot lie to yourself. you cannot use excuses why the solutions must not be used, you must attack the problem with determination and resolve. in the case of Africa, there are many problems which cannot be easily solved.

1. climate

2. overpopulation

3. disease

4. lack of medical facilities

5. lack of educational facilities

6. lack of natural resources or infrastructure to recover them

7. political power held by murderous dictators

8. cultures not inclined toward modern civilized practices.

these are just a few of the problems confronting Africa. it will take a long time and trillions of dollars to attack these problems. what are the goals

and who should undertake this job?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nope. There is fundamentally no difference between humans and zebras. .

 

Ignorance can be forgiven. Crass stupidy is another matter. I find the rest of your argument just as stupifying and not worth responding to. I have fourteen generations of relatives sitting on top of that volcano in South Africa, and one already murdered brother to boot. I have been in forced exile out here in the big bad world for thirty years fighting for international attention so as to apply a long-term solution. Immature attitudes like yours are no help. You are pretty close to crossing the line. If you don't pull up your socks I am going to have to write you off as a possible resource.

 

it would seem that any problem should be addresssed in a reasonable way if one intends to solve the problem.

 

1. list the reasons for the problem.

Basically over-population inpacting on the African environment.

Illiteracy. Ethnic bigotry. Colonial disruption of cultural traditions and occupations. Lack of primary and secondry education. Lack of trained craftsmen and technologists. Lack of fully committed technical assistence from the developed world. Dictatorships and lack of adequately trained government officials

 

2. list the possible solutions to the problem.

 

Via television and the internet, institute a parental training course that can show them how to evoke the innate intellegence of their chilldren. Raise and train a global stewardship youth corps here in America to go and help. Bring African youth here for similar training. Evoke the help of 100 million expatriate African slave descendants.

 

3. institute the measures that are doable to attack the problem.

 

Start in one country and let the good news spread from there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...