Africa, what to do?

[Boerseun]

Ignorance can be forgiven. Crass stupidy is another matter. I find the rest of your argument just as stupifying and not worth responding to.

MagnetMan, I feel I should warn you at this point in this discussion that your attitude is not appreciated. If somebody don't agree with you, face it like a man and present a counter-argument. Calling me or anybody else in this forum 'stupid', without presenting a viable counter-argument for fair points raised will get you banned, same as they banned you from the previous forum. I'm not agreeing with your points. Don't call me dumb, defend your points or go away. Read the forum rules.

I have fourteen generations of relatives sitting on top of that volcano in South Africa, and one already murdered brother to boot.

Sorry to hear about your brother. I'm still in SA, however, and playing the emotions card with me won't help. We're looking for solutions. I've had my fair share of violence and crime.

I have been in forced exile out here in the big bad world for thirty years fighting for international attention so as to apply a long-term solution. Immature attitudes like yours are no help. You are pretty close to crossing the line. If you don't pull up your socks I am going to have to write you off as a possible resource.

Oh God - not that!

You are scrapping my opinion off as an immature attitude, and yet you fail to present one single counter-argument to the points I've raised in my previous post. You are talking indefensible idealistic bullshit. Defend it.

Via television and the internet, institute a parental training course that can show them how to evoke the innate intellegence of their chilldren. Raise and train a global stewardship youth corps here in America to go and help. Bring African youth here for similar training. Evoke the help of 100 million expatriate African slave descendants.

Read my previous post.

If you hope to achieve any kind of training via television and internet in Africa, you simply don't have any clue as to what's happening in Africa. Now you can either say I'm spouting another useless post with an immature attitude, or you can accept the fact that you do not have the first idea what's happening in Africa today. How long ago did you emigrate? 40 years? How long ago did Soweto get broadband? 5 years ago? 2 years? How about NEVER? Soweto's only got dialup, through land lines that disappear every second day seeing as there's such a bomming business in the second-hand copper trade. And that's Soweto. Johannesburg has 40% of all telephones on the African continent. How the hell do you think the internet's viable as a training medium, in the absence of infrastructure?

Stop dreaming, and stop insulting me. At least attempt a reply to my post this time.

[Kayra]

Magnetman, while Boerseun's reply was rather pointed, it was to the point.

 

I understand that the issue has an emotional component for you that is very powerful. Unfortunately, posting emotion responses with no substance on a science site will do little for your ability to convince people to help find a solution.

 

The people here (like questor and Boerseun) need to have a problem defined, parameters determined, and solutions proposed to be reviewed by their peers. This is a difficult enough process without charging it with oddly unfounded allegations.

 

If you wish to continue here, detach yourself from the issues and work with these talented people in an objective manner. Otherwise, I suspect we will not be hearing from you much longer my friend.

[MagnetMan]

Magnetman, while Boerseun's reply was rather pointed, it was to the point.[

 

In the contrary. My previous reply to Boerseun was to the point. His reply to mine was crassly vapid - unless you too believe that man and zebra are on the same level of awareness. Everybody is entitled to an opinion, but give us a break.

 

I understand that the issue has an emotional component for you that is very powerful. Unfortunately, posting emotion responses with no substance on a science site will do little for your ability to convince people to help find a solution.

I am not asking you to help me. Just count how many kids are starving to death and decide on their account.

 

The people here (like questor and Boerseun) need to have a problem defined, parameters determined, and solutions proposed to be reviewed by their peers. This is a difficult enough process without charging it with oddly unfounded allegations.

What on earth do you think I have been doing? Read my posts a little more closely and take anothetr look at some of the replies I have got in return. I am posing original ideas, which are naturally refuted because nobody has ever considered them before. I can accept that initial attitude - for it is hard for peole to let go of what they are accustomed to.. But it gets tiresome when nobody reciprocates with an original constructive idea of their own - and just spouts the same old gospel that forced me to look elsewhere for answers in the first place. And when it gets rude, insult is added to injury.

 

If you wish to continue here, detach yourself from the issues and work with these talented people in an objective manner. Otherwise, I suspect we will not be hearing from you much longer my friend.

Are you also threatening me with a ban??? How many times in my life do I have to listen to that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[InfiniteNow]

Are you also threatening me with a ban??? How many times in my life do I have to listen to that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Probably indefinitely... that is, of course, unless the lightbulb turns on and you realize why it's happening, and, further, adjust.

[Kayra]

Well folks, in the last few days I have tried to make myself an instant expert on all things African, and have failed miserably.

 

The range of issues just seems to go on and on and on, and I have little hope of truly understanding all the issues at hand there. ;)

 

I do, however, believe that solutions exist to some of the greatest issues at hand.

 

Feel free to correct my ignorance (and naivety) wherever it shows itself.

 

The current implimentation of the African Union: Will fail :hyper:

The scope was to large, which spread available resources to thin to make a significant dent in the problems at hand.

 

One of the most significant issues will be to get the african peoples to work together. There is a long history of infighting to overcome, and until it is, no amount of external help will have any impact.

 

Back to my origional suggestion. Start small, make huge progress, and use that success to motivate others towards the same goals.

 

Here is my step by step. It should be interesting to see how many MagnetMan responses I get considering my lack of knowledge in the area :rolleyes:

 

1: Choose 2-3 countries with borders that touch. They should have a reasonable chance of being convinced to working together both politically and tribaly, assuming they have the promise of world aid in the form of finance, training, and global market opportunities. This will be the seed, and so MUST suceed dramatically, or my entire suggestion will fail.

 

2: Set up a centralized government (again simular to EU). They will establish a code of conduct and basic tenants that any member must adhere to, as well as establish consequences of failing that. They will be granted sufficient resources to defend all of the member countries, by those member countries.

 

3: Commit whatever external resources are required (On this point, many arguments can be had) to get those countries onto solid economic footing. They must be able to be self sufficient in a global setting.

 

4: One of the most important aspects of this will be the use of propoganda. (Yep.. ) While the concept has gotten a bad rep over the years, it is singularly the most powerful agent of change available. Use propaganda within the countries to turn the "Us/Them" racial mems into an "Us/Them" United Africa Meme (Those not participating in the union would be "Them"). Once the smaller group of countries (supported by a MUCH larger per capita external support system) starts to make progress, every virtue and gain will have to be shown to all africans by all means available. The point here is to create (especially in neighboring countries) the desire to join the union, and work towards a solution.

 

As countries that meet the stringent entry requirements are accepted into the union, the influence on neighboring countries will grow. Trade outside of the union should be discouraged, while trade with members encouraged. As new countries are accepted into the Union, resources from established countries should be mobilized to accomplish the same as was done for them. The newly joining country must govern itself, but do so within the confines of the broader laws of the African Union.

 

I see 2 major hurdles that I am not certain how to overcome.

1: Despots and warlords. There would be little incentive for such as these to join a union that enforces free elections and has the means to ensure it.

Any suggestions here that do not involve going to war? Or will propoganda and shining examples be enough to persuade the people to overthrough such as these?

 

2: Commitment. In order for this concept to have its best chance, most of the world aid (except for medical and basic food) would have to be channeled to the countries that are members of the union only. The world is not big on tough love approach when people are suffering, so I do not see this happening.

 

 

We have the means to help a few countries gain the upper hand on thier predicament. We do not have the means nor the will to help the entire continent at once. This plan is a generational one... not a quick fix.

 

Sorry, this post is to long already.

Looking forward to all the responses this will create :hihi:

[J.B]

Does talking about different ways to help "African people" make you guys feel superiour also?

[Kayra]

Are you also threatening me with a ban??? How many times in my life do I have to listen to that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

MagnetMan, I am not an admin here. i cannot ban people. I was only trying to warn you that if you get banned, you can not be heard. Your cause is a worthy one, so please do not mess it up by calling people stupid.. it serves no purpose.

 

The greedy gorilla grabbing for all the bananas certainly underlies our primate psyche and is without question the primal drive that ensures the survival of the species. But mankind is a supernatural being. We tower above Nature. There is no other consciousness on the planet remotely like ours. We are the one and only "chosen son".

 

Posting such claims of faith on a science site is CERTAIN to evoke a response from these folks. Best to avoid making such claims of faith as fact unless you are willing to spend the rest of your time in this thread defending them.

 

Better perhaps to spend your efforts on solutions :rolleyes:

[Kayra]

Shush J.B. :rolleyes:

[MagnetMan]

MagnetMan, I am not an admin here. i cannot ban people. I was only trying to warn you that if you get banned, you can not be heard. Your cause is a worthy one, so please do not mess it up by calling people stupid.. it serves no purpose.

When you get old you get cranky. It is about the only methodology we have left in this mdoern milieu of young pups becoming professors before they become sages.

 

 

Posting such claims of faith on a science site is CERTAIN to evoke a response from these folks. Best to avoid making such claims of faith as fact unless you are willing to spend the rest of your time in this thread defending them.

Calling our specie the chosen son was not a claim opf faith - in fact I was taking it out of the realm of religion and applying it to evolution. Bias surely is in the eye of the beholder here. You are not being an impartial judge in this matter.

 

Better perhaps to spend your efforts on solutions :love:

Soon as I get past the bias, I certainly will try.

[Kayra]

When you get old you get cranky. It is about the only methodology we have left in this mdoern milieu of young pups becoming professors before they become sages.

 

Feeling pretty old myslef these days.

 

Calling our specie the chosen son was not a claim opf faith - in fact I was taking it out of the realm of religion and applying it to evolution. Bias surely is in the eye of the beholder here. You are not being an impartial judge in this matter.

 

Then I fear you will spend much of your time defending such claims, to the detriment of this thread ;)

 

Impartial? Much as I try to be, I seldom am :lol:. I guess this stems from my agreement with Boerseun that we are not as special as we like to think we are. But that is a discusion for another thread :love:

 

I believe we are designed by the harsh mistress of evolution. Almost all the the general aspects of mankind can be attributed to to it in one way or another, and none of those general aspects should be attributed to an individual.

 

We are designed at every level to pass on our genetic material. First and foremost, our own. Secondly (where it does not conflict with he first) to ensure that our "Tribe" passes it on.

 

Greed first, altruistic second. No individual is bound by this, but mankind in general is, and must be.

 

To try to count on the altruism of an educated man to give his excess food to his neighbor instead of saving it for himself and his family (in case of future famine) might work on and individual, in a tribe that appreciates the gesture, but fails at the level of a country, or a race :lol:

 

With that understanding, the ability to improve things in any country must leverage those selfish drives in all of us, or be doomed to failure. My "Plan" above required that some countries be made into "haves" in order to encourage the "Have nots" to see what can be made to happen, and want to make it suceed.

[J.B]

My "Plan" above required that some countries be made into "haves" in order to encourage the "Have nots" to see what can be made to happen, and want to make it suceed.

WTF? Just a bunch of bla bla bla.

 

This is your "plan"?

 

Your whole post has nothing to do about nothing.

[MagnetMan]

With that understanding, the ability to improve things in any country must leverage those selfish drives in all of us, or be doomed to failure. My "Plan" above required that some countries be made into "haves" in order to encourage the "Have nots" to see what can be made to happen, and want to make it suceed.

 

That has been the prevailing view for centuries. I was indoctrinated into it too. So there is no need for you and Boerseun to keep trying to sell me stale bread. I aint buying. I underwent a profound change of consciousness 40 years ago and had great difficulty deprogramming myself from that entrenched mind-set. I succeeeded and as a result no longer share in the general view - though my memories of my former greed remain crystal clear and remind me every day how fortunate I have been to evolve to another level of awareness. Thus, from my New Age perspective as an active Onlogist, I know exactly what frustrations Galileo went through by his detracters. Change is the First Law of the Universe. That is certain and it gives me hope.

 

Read my previous post.

If you hope to achieve any kind of training via television and internet in Africa, you simply don't have any clue as to what's happening in Africa. Now you can either say I'm spouting another useless post with an immature attitude, or you can accept the fact that you do not have the first idea what's happening in Africa today. How long ago did you emigrate? 40 years? How long ago did Soweto get broadband? 5 years ago? 2 years? How about NEVER? Soweto's only got dialup, through land lines that disappear every second day seeing as there's such a bomming business in the second-hand copper trade. And that's Soweto. Johannesburg has 40% of all telephones on the African continent. How the hell do you think the internet's viable as a training medium, in the absence of infrastructure?

Stop dreaming, and stop insulting me. At least attempt a reply to my post this time.

 

I keep myself pretty well informed about what is going on in South Africa via relatives who travel back and forth, and via media etc. I made a lot of friends when I worked in Soweto. I do not feel that I am behind the curve there. My work in Watts, a large black township in S.E. Los Angeles, and in Baldwin Hills where young black professionals gravitate into a better life style, is with Africans who are a generation or two ahead of those back home. So I am ahead of the curve and have a better idea than most of how things will probably develope there.. I would be interested to know when last you spent time inside Soweto or Alexandria. I don't mean for just a look-see. Most whites have neither the interest nor the balls to do it. The only ones I ever saw in Soweto and Watts, cruised by in police cars with their hands on their guns.

 

When I mentioned training via TV and Internet it is because that will be a whole cheaper to install throughout the continent right now than a conventional education system.

[Kayra]

That has been the prevailing view for centuries. I was indoctrinated into it too. So there is no need for you and Boerseun to keep trying to sell me stale bread. I aint buying.

 

I had nothign to sell, and nothing to gain. The very title of the thread asked for opinions. I have offered mine and stand by my suggestions unless REASONABLE argument is made against them.

 

I bow to your vastly greater experience in these matters and wish you the best on your journey, as any opinion of mine (not having suffered as you have) will meet only with your derision.

 

Good luck.

[MagnetMan]

I had nothign to sell, and nothing to gain. The very title of the thread asked for opinions. I have offered mine and stand by my suggestions unless REASONABLE argument is made against them.

 

I bow to your vastly greater experience in these matters and wish you the best on your journey, as any opinion of mine (not having suffered as you have) will meet only with your derision.

 

Good luck.

 

You were not offering me your opinion. All you were doing was regurgitating predigested knowledge. I was posting original stuff. The purpose of this post was to discuss the pros and cons of a new take on reality - not bore each other with old ideas.

 

And the best of luck to you too.

[InfiniteNow]

It's a bit like a game of ping pong... back and forth, yet both hitting the same ball with similar paddles.

[MagnetMan]

It's a bit like a game of ping pong... back and forth, yet both hitting the same ball with similar paddles.

You are quite right. We have gone right off thread.

[Kayra]

More like the gentleman has put the other end of the table vertical and is playing with himself ;)

 

I stopped posting after my last.. apparently I digested my ideas from somewhere else and regurgitated it on him.

 

Since he brooks no criticism of his concepts, and ridicules or debases any others put forward without the of giving justification, this thread has stopped being a discussion, and turned into a "Listen to me" for Mr Magnetman :naughty:

 

As I said earlier MagnetMan.. Good luck with this. :evil: