What's better than punishment?

[InfiniteNow]

As much as some people would like to believe otherwise, a dog's brain does not work like a human's. Dogs live in the moment. They don't correlate cause and effect like we do.

Wanna bet? Show me some evidence of this claim and convince me otherwise, but your statement is false to me right now, in this moment in which I live. :confused:

 

 

If you arrive home to find a 10 minute old urine stain on the carpet, walk your dog over to it and discipline him while pointing the stain out, he will associate negativity with a urine stain on the carpet, not with the act of peeing on the carpet. That's why poorly trained dogs will continue to urinate indoors, then become sad or depressed upon seeing the stain there in front of them. They don't put things together like we do. They don't think that you're upset with their action...but with the fact that there's pee on the floor.

Agreed, however, humans do the same thing. The greater the space between the act and the punishment, the weaker the association. It's only if we get shocked (or something similar) immediately upon completing (or during) the act in question will we associate that act as and the negative consequence in anything more than an academic sense.

 

 

Jails aren't much of a deterrent for hardened criminals. Making them a worse place to be might just help a little. Do you not agree?

Maybe, a little. It would be a single drop in a vast bucket though...

 

 

Cheers. :naughty:

[GreekTTC]

Wanna bet? Show me some evidence of this claim and convince me otherwise, but your statement is false to me right now, in this moment in which I live. :doh:

 

Anyone who has studied canine behavior would agree with me. I figured the fact that dogs associate two events only if they occur very close together was common knowledge. I'll try to dig something up.

[TheBigDog]

Anyone who has studied canine behavior would agree with me. I figured the fact that dogs associate two events only if they occur very close together was common knowledge. I'll try to dig something up.

While dogs absolutly do live very much in the moment, they can carry associations for a very long time. But they also get over associations very quickly when they are lead like the simple creatures that dogs are, and not the complex emotional creatures that humans are, and want their dogs to be too.

 

Bill

[InfiniteNow]

You might also research evidence that humans do NOT do this, as you proposed... Frankly, I fail to see you finding either successfully.

[TheBigDog]

You might also research evidence that humans do NOT do this, as you proposed... Frankly, I fail to see you finding either successfully.

Check out any episode of "the Dog Whisperer" on National Geographic Channel. The whole show is about dog psychology, and how we ruin dogs because we expect them to have human emotions. You can use the analogies to a degree, and I certainly understood yours.

 

I plan on getting back to the main topic here where we left off soon Infinite. I have been giving it some thought and I am almost ready to relaunch into this with you. :doh:

 

We were looking for solutions, if I am not mistaken.

 

Bill

[Racoon]

ah BigDog - resident K-9 expert! :)

 

How did we get from punishing Criminals to Dogs peeing on the carpet? :doh:

 

Whats better than punishment?

Rehab. Work Release.

 

If that doesn't work then back to Prison you go. :lol:

Of course, Punishment should fit the crime!

 

I don't see how a kid can get Popped with a pound of weed and do hard time

WHEN some Enron CROOKS can Steal and Embezzle BILLIONS from hard working American's and their pensions; destroying their livlihoods; and get away practically Scot-free with maybe a few months in a Country Club federal prison. :unlove: --->>>:omg:

 

Then the kid comes out a hardened Felon with little prospect of a job.

 

Drug Laws need to be reformed!

I know Orby would agree with that...:shade:

 

I shot the Sheriff, but I did not kill the Deputy...:eek: :doh: :gift:

[InfiniteNow]

TheBigDog was right to remind us that this is a search for a solution, but it is also a discussion of the problem at hand. There are some silly laws in effect, and assymetries between the nature of certain crimes and their punishments, but those too are peripheral to the question, what might we do instead of punish?

[Racoon]

what might we do instead of punish?

 

well we could Not Punish. but that would create chaos and advantage taking.

 

Drug and Alcohol Rehab and psychiatric evaluations...(most crimes arise from needing money for drug and booze addictions)

 

Forced Medication?? like they do for schizo's in a Nut house :unlove:

 

Taking away priveledges. although they do that already with Guns, voting, driving, leaving the house.

 

Wear a Scarlett Letter for those who have offended seriously? :doh:

[tarak]

In the existing scheme of things punishment is a sort of credible deterrent that seems to be working well.But there is always resistance to change and a strong tendency to defend one's own actions.The goal is an individuals effort to identify,characterize and adapt his state of mind as a social being with respect to the state of the state so that one goes through a righteous living path and there is no need for any confinement or punishment.

[InfiniteNow]

The goal is an individuals effort to identify,characterize and adapt his state of mind as a social being with respect to the state of the state so that one goes through a righteous living path and there is no need for any confinement or punishment.

That is a clear-peaceful-enlightened goal, indeed. This works, however, on the level of the individual. While certainly a good practice for all, what could we do with those who choose otherwise? If something, then what? If nothing... well, there would be many other connotations that most of us are not willing to accept.

[HydrogenBond]

It like the example of the dog pissing on the carpet. If the owner knows the dog can only go a few hours without peeing and leaves him there all day and then punishes the dog for peeing. Who is the real victim. The one who gets punished.

 

Everyone seem to skip over the punishment fitting the crime and that some crimes are victimless yet still recieve punishment. While those who victimized perpetrators of victimless crimes go unpunished.

 

Nobody answered the question which would make one feel more victimized; finding you mate in bed with a stranger or smoking in a public place? Which of the two creates a greater level of vicitimization and which of the two recieves the worse punishment by culture?

[InfiniteNow]

Nobody answered the question which would make one feel more victimized; finding you mate in bed with a stranger or smoking in a public place? Which of the two creates a greater level of vicitimization and which of the two recieves the worse punishment by culture?

Depends on one's circumstances. If I were trying to break it off with my mate and was just looking for a reason, finding them in bed with someone else would be good. If I were a lung cancer patient who just finished his last batch of chemo, I'd probably be pretty pissed if someone within a 20 mile radius were smoking around me. It's all relative...

 

 

Now, what can we do instead of punishment?

[HydrogenBond]

Instead of the exteme 1% exceptions, how about other 99%. With victimless crimes, the so-called criminal becomes the victim. Culture plays the legalized role of the criminal or bully. In other words, culture thinks it knows better for someone and uses that as an excuse to victimize them if they do not go along with the program.

 

Let me give another example. Which is worse a lying polititian or a pot smoking factory worker. There is random drug testing for the factory worker to control their personal time, but no random lie detector tests for polititians to control their paid time. Yet one lying polititian can do more harm to culture that one pot smoking factory worker.

[TheBigDog]

Instead of the exteme 1% exceptions, how about other 99%. With victimless crimes, the so-called criminal becomes the victim. Culture plays the legalized role of the criminal or bully. In other words, culture thinks it knows better for someone and uses that as an excuse to victimize them if they do not go along with the program.

 

Let me give another example. Which is worse a lying polititian or a pot smoking factory worker. There is random drug testing for the factory worker to control their personal time, but no random lie detector tests for polititians to control their paid time. Yet one lying polititian can do more harm to culture that one pot smoking factory worker.

How are your examples a victimless crime? With pot you cannot tell (except maybe for a brain scan) when a person is under the influence, and when they are not. Unlike alcohol where you can absolutly tell the influence upon a person at a given moment. Without the ability to tell when a person is under the influence, your only defense against accedents in the work place as a result of pot use is to assume that if it is detectable, then that person is under the influence.

 

I could also show statistically that any type of smoking goes along with higher medical bills. With insurance costs distributed across a whole workforce I am paying an extra price for those workers who choose to be smokers of anything. All the non-smokers are then financial victims of those with any type of smoking habit.

 

Bill

[InfiniteNow]

Plus pot smoking doesn't do too much to help productivity. Smoking a fattie not quite equal to a fat cup of coffee when it comes to getting things done.

 

However, HydrogenBond, please start your own thread if you wish to discuss the relativity of various crimes and if those committing them are handled appropriately based on society's perception of the act in which they engaged.

 

My question is, what can we do instead of punishment?

 

I could make a poke at you about your short-term memory and how I've now reminded you of this several times, but that would be hypocritical because I used to smoke out a lot.

 

 

Cheers. :lol:

[Cedars]

Some of the problems with the system of punishment in the USA is, it has become too absolute. You do the crime, you do the time mentality. Crimes of poverty is a real aspect of the criminal element. People with nothing got nothing to lose.

 

I knew a man who killed another when he was 15 sometime in the 50s. He was tried, convicted and sent to prison for 20 years. This was Texas or Louisianna, I forget which. Either state, he did hard time. He served time for 2 years and was given the option of joining the Army. He took that option. If he was discharged from the Army under any type of misconduct, back to prison. He did his stint and told me himself it was an opportunity for him to become something more than an ex-con.

 

I believe that option has been taken away years ago.

 

How about peace corp type places for non-violent offenders? They would not be taking jobs from people and may learn more than ever imagined possibly resulting in a greater appreciation for societies rules.

 

Taking a criminal out of its element gives the opportunity for change. There is alot of fact in the ideas that jails teach criminals to be better criminals. There was a joke around here when the "give 'em treatment" crews starting shipping off busloads of pot smoking teens to treatment. They all met bigger and better drug dealers, much to the dismay of their parents.

[TheFaithfulStone]

That's a good idea Cedars, but I don't know about that Army stuff.

 

The draft Army during Vietnam had lots of folks like that. Low morale, poor training, high incidence of abuse, fragging, etc.

 

Now we have an all "volunteer" force, and those problems are much lessened.

 

I do like the idea of a "peace corps" though. Maybe instead of giving a bunch of felons guns and training them to be agressive killers we should give them all pick axes, ship them off to Burkina Faso and say "You can come back when you've built a school and a road."

 

TFS