What's better than punishment?

[Turtle]

A discipline anecdote:

 

When I actively taught swimming at a YMCA, a local university contracted with us to teach swimming to a group of children with severe behavior problems. The fella (call him Joe) running the program was working on his Phd & the kids were the subjects.

We instructors first had to meet with Joe in order for him to instruct us on how the program worked. Essentially it was based on a reward system with no punishments. Every child received gold stars for doing even the slightest thing 'right', such as brushing their teeth, following an instruction etc.. In order to get to do anything outside normal routine, the child had to have earned a certain number of rewards.

I saw very few bad behaviors by these children, but then if they were even in class it was because they had earned it with good behaviors.

I think overall, each individual case needs consideration on its own merit & that sometimes punishment is called for when other methods fail. I think people in prison need work of some kind to do so that they learn to discipline themselves as well as contribute economically. :cool:

[InfiniteNow]

It's actually better to use something called variable schedule positive reinforcement. Essentially, give rewards, but don't do it every time the behavior is engaged in. Make variable your presentation of the reward, so the motivation becomes less extrinsic (I do good things so I can get a reward) and more intrinsic (I was rewarded for good things, now I do them because it's habit and it's right).

 

I am completely in line with that thinking...

 

Problem is, how to implement it on a societal level and prevent the crime in the first place? I was approaching this concept tentatively in Post #13, but wanted to avoid steering the dialogue too much.

[J.B]

Here is a story of a women named Raechale Elton, who used to think just like you, InfiniteNow.

 

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,635185438,00.html

[TheBigDog]

It is my experience that all human motivation for action comes down to two forces: avoid pain and receive pleasure. When you take away all the other window dressing that is all that is left. To get desired action from people you need to give them a pleasureable alternative and/or associate pain with undesired actitons. Crime is an undesired action. So you can give more pleasureable alternatives to crime, or you can associate crime with pain, or both.

 

I contend that you cannot do one without the other. If people have become conditioned that any act is pleasureable. The adreneline rush of robbing a bank, shoplifting, speeding, or any other crime large or small, is so addictive that offering alternative pleasureable things to do is not going to take the pleasure-memory out of a person. And then when they have idle time they will stray back to what gave them pleasure in the past. You can educate people until you are blue in the face, but with a culture that makes icons out of criminals there is a rolemodeling/anti-hero segment that will choose crime over law abiding no matter what logical arguments are made. So you will always have first time criminals no matter how much education is done. That means that people become engrained with the pleaure memories of getting away with it, and stray back to that over their lives.

 

I cannot see how rewarding people for not commiting crime is a viable method of prevention. I visit a bank and rob it. I am caught. Now, every time I visit a bank and don't rob it I am rewarded for my restraint? Or I am offered a reward for doing something other than bank robbing? Now the bank rober is in control because any time he wants more he just has to prove the giving system inadequate and he will get something more or something new or something different to keep him on the straight and narrow. It becomes a reward system to bribe people into not commiting crime.

 

There has to be consequence to criminal actions. But there has to be more than pooling people into hell and then releaseing them back into the public. Family is most important. Shame needs te be brought back. People should be ashamed of themselves when they are criminals. They sould not be pitied for their helpless situation. Mothers and fathers should not give unconditional acceptance of any action of their offspring. That is giving nurturing pleasure to offensive acts. Kids should know that bad behavior wrecks the relationsships that are important to them, and they should value the pleasure of those relationships enough to work to keep them healthy. Removing the stigma of pain and shame makes anti-social and criminal acts ultimately non-events in family life. People who commit criminal acts should have to seek forgivness, and act accordingly to receive it.

 

Parents need to be role models of behavior for their kids, and take the responsility for the moral education of their kids. Good kids will make law abiding adults more often than not. And getting the trend in that direction is the best you can do for elimination of crime.

 

Rules:

• Define clearly the difference between good and bad behavior
  
• Define clearly the consequence of bad behavior and consistanly enforce it
  
• Provide rewards for extrodinarily good things
  
• Do not give pleasure to people for doing bad things
  
• Raise your kids with a purpose that leads to good behavior
  
• Defend yourself by any means necessary
  

Except for small children who have not grown to know betteer yet, unconditional love is poison.

 

Bill

[InfiniteNow]

Here is a story of a women named Raechale Elton, who used to think just like you, InfiniteNow.

 

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,635185438,00.html

What exactly about that article is relevant to my thoughts or this thread?

[J.B]

What would you do to this guy?

 

http://www.news4jax.com/news/8064079/detail.html

 

or this guy?

 

http://www.news4jax.com/news/8143001/detail.html

[InfiniteNow]

It is my experience that...

Good to hear from you... :friday:

 

... all human motivation for action comes down to two forces: avoid pain and receive pleasure. When you take away all the other window dressing that is all that is left. To get desired action from people you need to give them a pleasureable alternative and/or associate pain with undesired actitons. Crime is an undesired action. So you can give more pleasureable alternatives to crime, or you can associate crime with pain, or both.

Indeed. Part of the issue as I see it is that the pleasure is immediate, and hence nearly 100% associated with the act. However, the punishment is not immediate, and the longer it takes for the punishment to be enacted the weaker the association it has with the act.

 

It's like if your dog knocks over the trash, then the next day you decide to spank him for it. No matter how much you rub his nose in it, while you're punishing the dog he's thinking "why the hell is the bringer of food hitting me and rubbing my nose in that happy scent containiner?"

 

Further, if you catch him immediately and punish immediately, he'll just think, "man... I really want what's in there, but the bringer of food causes me pain when I go in there. I should prevent the bringer of food from catching me," and will learn better tricks to avoid detection... whether that be waiting until you've left the house or not knocking it over or ensuring they don't leave scraps on the floor.

 

 

I contend that you cannot do one without the other.

<...>

...people become engrained with the pleaure memories of getting away with it, and stray back to that over their lives.

Valid points all...

 

 

I cannot see how rewarding people for not commiting crime is a viable method of prevention.

I struggle with it as well. Thing is, punishment seems no more viable at prevention. That's why I raised this thread. What's better? What can we do instead? The ideas I've put forth are just those I've had already, and they don't seem to do it on their own. I am truly looking for a better idea.

 

 

There has to be consequence to criminal actions. But there has to be more than pooling people into hell and then releaseing them back into the public.

Yes, but not all consequences are parellel with punishment. Perhaps counseling? I don't know. :shrug:

 

 

Family is most important. Shame needs te be brought back. People should be ashamed of themselves when they are criminals. They sould not be pitied for their helpless situation. Mothers and fathers should not give unconditional acceptance of any action of their offspring. That is giving nurturing pleasure to offensive acts. Kids should know that bad behavior wrecks the relationsships that are important to them, and they should value the pleasure of those relationships enough to work to keep them healthy. Removing the stigma of pain and shame makes anti-social and criminal acts ultimately non-events in family life. People who commit criminal acts should have to seek forgivness, and act accordingly to receive it.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I am interpreting your words to mean that crime will only go away, and the issue of punishment itself can only be eliminated, by society-wide changes... Individuals must be cared for properly and nurtured and taught to be good people independently. That it will never go away completely, and punishment will always be required, but we can minimize it with proper parenting. Sound accurate?

 

Even the most loving attentive intelligent parents can still wind up with a child that doesn't care and commits some henous act...

 

 

I suppose this further breaks down my question into one of two things:

 

a) How do we prevent the child from committing the act, and,

2) :hihi: What do we do once the act has been committed?

[TheBigDog]

Good to hear from you... :hihi:

Like so many enjoyable things in life, when I do them I wonder what was so important that kept me away. :hihi:

Part of the issue as I see it is that the pleasure is immediate, and hence nearly 100% associated with the act. However, the punishment is not immediate, and the longer it takes for the punishment to be enacted the weaker the association it has with the act.

 

It's like if your dog knocks over the trash, then the next day you decide to spank him for it. No matter how much you rub his nose in it, while you're punishing the dog he's thinking "why the hell is the bringer of food hitting me and rubbing my nose in that happy scent containiner?"

 

Further, if you catch him immediately and punish immediately, he'll just think, "man... I really want what's in there, but the bringer of food causes me pain when I go in there. I should prevent the bringer of food from catching me," and will learn better tricks to avoid detection... whether that be waiting until you've left the house or not knocking it over or ensuring they don't leave scraps on the floor.

There is an art to associating an act with a consequence. I am no master, but I try hard to do well. As a society we have turned everything so upside down. Criminals are victims. Victims are instigators. Moral relativity finds justification for every heinous action instead of condemning the acts. The "innocent by any means necessary" defense tactics and courtroom procedural rules further displace responsibility in the minds of those on trial. I don't know the solution. But lets keep thinking about it. We are bound to come up with something good.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I am interpreting your words to mean that crime will only go away, and the issue of punishment itself can only be eliminated, by society-wide changes... Individuals must be cared for properly and nurtured and taught to be good people independently. That it will never go away completely, and punishment will always be required, but we can minimize it with proper parenting. Sound accurate?

Right on the money! :)

Even the most loving attentive intelligent parents can still wind up with a child that doesn't care and commits some henous act...

The Yankees don't win the world series every year. But they give themselves the best statistical advantage that they can buy. Parenting is the same thing. You do you best to put your children in the best position for success, but in the end it is up to them to play the game.

I suppose this further breaks down my question into one of two things:

 

a) How do we prevent the child from committing the act, and,

2) :hihi: What do we do once the act has been committed?

1 - You cannot prevent the child from committing the act. The acts happen out of curiosity -and I would never stifle curiosity. I can try and satisfy curiosity in such a fashion that I hope it prevents unwanted experimentation that will lead to trouble. But you simply cannot prevent kids from discovering trouble and enjoying the rush.

 

B: Once it has been committed you need to address it in a fashion similar to above. There is no right answer, but all answers need to be based upon honesty. If you are not honest with your kids about this type of thing and they catch wind of it you blow your trust and your influence.

 

If we are in agreement about strong family effective parenting being a the strongest root for a good crime-free life, then what are the root causes of ineffective parenting? And what actions can be taken to improve parenting where it lacks?

 

Bill

[InfiniteNow]

What would you do to this guy?

 

http://www.news4jax.com/news/8064079/detail.html

 

or this guy?

 

http://www.news4jax.com/news/8143001/detail.html

 

What's the matter J.B., couldn't find any pictures of white guys committing crimes?

 

 

No matter how forcefully they are punished, it will not bring back the loved one. They are gone. Killing someone doesn't teach them that killing is wrong, but is only a manifestation of blood lust. Revenge and retribution will do nothing to bring back what you've lost. In fact, it only spreads pain to others... perhaps the family of the convicted who had absolutely nothing to do with it.

 

The Dalai Lama is a pretty articulate fellow. He says something on the order of: Love your enemy for they provide an opportunity for you how to forgive and practice patience. Is it easy? Nope... but it's pretty smart.

[InfiniteNow]

The "innocent by any means necessary" defense tactics and courtroom procedural rules further displace responsibility in the minds of those on trial. I don't know the solution. But lets keep thinking about it. We are bound to come up with something good.

Not only are we in the same library reading the same book, but we are on the same page. Hopefully we can sum our collective Hypography ideas and work up a feasible alternative. :secret:

 

 

If we are in agreement about strong family effective parenting being a the strongest root for a good crime-free life, then what are the root causes of ineffective parenting? And what actions can be taken to improve parenting where it lacks?

 

Sure, but only if you'll agree to include all life on Earth to be included in the group "family."

 

 

:cup:

[J.B]

What's the matter J.B., couldn't find any pictures of white guys committing crimes?

I can not find one story of a white man killing or raping a black women, and I bet you cannot either.

 

No matter how forcefully they are punished, it will not bring back the loved one. They are gone. Killing someone doesn't teach them that killing is wrong, but is only a manifestation of blood lust. Revenge and retribution will do nothing to bring back what you've lost. In fact, it only spreads pain to others... perhaps the family of the convicted who had absolutely nothing to do with it.

There once was a study done on this issue and researchers found that every child molester, rapist and murder that was put to sleep, never commited another crime.

 

The Dalai Lama is a pretty articulate fellow. He says something on the order of: Love your enemy for they provide an opportunity for you how to forgive and practice patience. Is it easy? Nope... but it's pretty smart.

Grow up.

[TheBigDog]

The Dalai Lama is a pretty articulate fellow. He says something on the order of: Love your enemy for they provide an opportunity for you how to forgive and practice patience. Is it easy? Nope... but it's pretty smart.

Grow up.

What element of that statement is childish? I am quitee sure that InfiniteNow is all grown up an has given considerable thought to his positions. It is a testament to the complexity and beauty of man that he and I can agree and disagree at the same time on issues, and have the maturity to engage in thoughtful discussion around the disagreements - even when it ends in simple recognition that we are choosing seperate answers to the same question. I am glad for your input here because it stimulates discussion that otherwise might not take place. But do us a favor and make an effort to continue discussing rather than just dropping little turds like that. We all love a good debate.

 

Bill

[InfiniteNow]

I can not find one story of a white man killing or raping a black women, and I bet you cannot either.

Try opening your eyes first. If you would like to agree to some terms on this bet, like giving me a shitload of money for finding such an (easy) example, will do. But really, this just speaks to your mindset.

 

If you truly believe I'd be unable to find multiple examples of the death of a person with black skin resulting from a murder performed by someone with white skin, then I sincerely hope there is beauty at least somewhere in your world, because that's plain ugly.

 

 

There once was a study done on this issue and researchers found that every child molester, rapist and murder that was put to sleep, never commited another crime.

Really? I'd love to read it. What journal was that? Who were the authors of the study? While I sense you are trying to be flippant, you really won't do too much to support your claims by making false ones.

 

 

Cheers. :secret:

[J.B]

What element of that statement is childish? I am quitee sure that InfiniteNow is all grown up an has given considerable thought to his positions. It is a testament to the complexity and beauty of man that he and I can agree and disagree at the same time on issues, and have the maturity to engage in thoughtful discussion around the disagreements - even when it ends in simple recognition that we are choosing seperate answers to the same question. I am glad for your input here because it stimulates discussion that otherwise might not take place. But do us a favor and make an effort to continue discussing rather than just dropping little turds like that. We all love a good debate.

 

Bill

Well OK, let's learn more about the Dalai Lama and his thought's.

 

http://thechinadesk.tripod.com/the_dalai_lamas_politics.htm

[TheBigDog]

Well OK, let's learn more about the Dalai Lama and his thought's.

 

http://thechinadesk.tripod.com/the_dalai_lamas_politics.htm

Nice website. The only thing it is missing is excerpts from the "Little Red Book". I was hoping for something a little more real than Red Chinese propaganda. :(

 

Bill

[TheFaithfulStone]

Well OK, let's learn more about the Dalai Lama and his thought's.

 

http://thechinadesk.tripod.com/the_d...s_politics.htm

 

Awww. Wook at the wittle anarchist.

 

Anarcho-capitalism is as indefensible as communism as a governmental philosophy. It assumes things that just ain't true.

 

(Like I will honor contract with you if I'm bigger than you. Or that if you have something I want, and I have means to take it, I wont. All of this in the absencse of enforcement.)

 

TFSF

[J.B]

Try opening your eyes first.

Here I found one for you:

 

http://www.wtoctv.com/Global/story.asp?S=4436292