RFID - Invasion of Privacy or good business

[alexander]

actually, there is prevention hardware making it seemingly impossible to fry the circuits, but worry not, there needs to be a programming interface on those things (tags) hence transmitting a signal at just the right frequency and you will be able to reprogram any/all tags, and there are materials that will protect the rfid tags from being read (and there are 2 such materials).

 

RFID is still not a certain technology, but i will say that i will try my best to find holes in it once it comes out...

[TheBigDog]

actually, there is prevention hardware making it seemingly impossible to fry the circuits, but worry not, there needs to be a programming interface on those things (tags) hence transmitting a signal at just the right frequency and you will be able to reprogram any/all tags, and there are materials that will protect the rfid tags from being read (and there are 2 such materials).

 

RFID is still not a certain technology, but i will say that i will try my best to find holes in it once it comes out...

To what purpose? :D

 

Having a line drawn down the middle of a road is a less than perfect solution, but you don't go around erasing the line or purposely driving on the wrong side to point out the imperfection. :naughty:

 

Bill

[alexander]

i will do this for the safety of others, line is a good solution as others will require more money to be spent by others, plus erasing lines will lead to more accidents.

 

RFID technology will allow government, or for that matter anyone who wants to, to know what food you eat, clothes you wear and drugs you take, and we all know that all systems are secure right, and that everyone uses technology in the way it was intended to, right, so we all know that nobody, knowing not only who you are, but what you ate for breakfast that morning will do any harm to you, your family or anyone else for that matter...

 

and if it takes me to sit on the side of the highway and erase any rfid tag that comes by me to prove that RFID is not safe, is not secure and should not be used as Wallmart intends to use it, then that is what i will do so your security is potentialy less compromised!

[Turtle]

"RFID - Invasion of Privacy or good business" the title declares. How about both then?

Half a million household wheelie bins have been secretly tagged with hidden electronic "bugs", it has been reported.

 

Read more...

[Guest jamongo]

As I see it, and understand it, it doesn't make any difference if you are for it or against it. It's going to happen. No stopping it.

 

A good point is in relation to medical patients that require quick attention in case of an emrgency. A diabetic person would be one example.

 

You can't stop progress. Does anyone remember the stink that was put up when credit cards emerged? Some Christian groups believed they were the "666" mark of the devil.

 

We, and certainly I, may not like it, but that won't even slow it down. The next generation will be more adapted to it, and the next after that will accept it as normal.

 

Some of us may remember the movie "Logan's Run".

[alexander]

they will happen and already do, US already puts RFID tags in their pasports because CIA decided to do so... There are applications of RFID technology that it is suitable for, but there are situations when they are not. Most certainly having patients information on an rfid tag is not the greatest idea to have. Think, a malacious virus is put on one of those hospital tags and scrambles information in patient's sickness database making a diabetic person for example have a shortage of sugar in blood, or prescribing heart medications to people that have stomach problems and stomach medications to people with heart problems. It is a new era of possible terror acts as i see it.

 

And not to forget the smart huouses. How would you like to live in an environment where i can pull up next to your house and know not only what clothes you have in your drawes and what soap you have in your bathroom, but wht mediactions you have in your drawers, and what you ate for breakfast?.... scary

[TheBigDog]

It is important to remember that the tags themselves are not detailed data repositories. They can have a little bit of data, but for the most part they are nothing but an ID. Inthe case of a medical tag, that ID is then used to access associated information from a secure database. The tag only acts as a way of saying who you are, and that in itself is not access to the information.

 

Also, I will reiterate that you can only read the passive tags that are used in most applications from a meter or less, depending upon the frequency of the tag. So even with the tags, for a person to find out what is in your home they would have to break in and go through your stuff, just like there were no tags at all.

 

Bill

[Turtle]

Also, I will reiterate that you can only read the passive tags that are used in most applications from a meter or less, depending upon the frequency of the tag. So even with the tags, for a person to find out what is in your home they would have to break in and go through your stuff, just like there were no tags at all.

 

Bill

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uklatest/story/0,,-6040229,00.html

I wish to reiterate that tags were used surreptitiously in the case I cited, and that this is the invasion of privacy I expressed concern for in the origin of the thread. :phones: :phones: :D :hihi:

[TheBigDog]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uklatest/story/0,,-6040229,00.html

I wish to reiterate that tags were used surreptitiously in the case I cited, and that this is the invasion of privacy I expressed concern for in the origin of the thread. :phones: :phones: :D :hihi:

The use sighted in your example is for tracking the work being done. The garbage company only knows that it has tipped a particular bin and when. This would be used by the garbage company to try and make the routes more efficient and save operating costs. It is not about tracking the customers personal habits. It is also worthy to note that the garbage company probably owns the cans that it is tagging. At my home the can is provided to me by the garbage company. They can replace it or modify it any time they want.

 

Bill

[alexander]

Also, I will reiterate that you can only read the passive tags that are used in most applications from a meter or less, depending upon the frequency of the tag. So even with the tags, for a person to find out what is in your home they would have to break in and go through your stuff, just like there were no tags at all.

 

an amp and a coffee can antenna and you can read it from probably like 10 yards... its a radio signal and hence can most definitely be read off. If FBI can point an antenna in a commercial building and see what everyone who uses CRT monitors sees, you can read off an RFID Tag from a dozen yards...

 

It is important to remember that the tags themselves are not detailed data repositories. They can have a little bit of data, but for the most part they are nothing but an ID. Inthe case of a medical tag, that ID is then used to access associated information from a secure database. The tag only acts as a way of saying who you are, and that in itself is not access to the information.

well, yes and no, tags can hold data itself, and yes they most likely wont, and just hold the ID. And medical databases, no matter how secure can be accessed, and there are always volnurabilities, and you can write exploits for middle ware and databases themselves and then use the tag to execute it to gain access or modify information in the "secure database".

[Turtle]

Also, I will reiterate that you can only read the passive tags that are used in most applications from a meter or less, depending upon the frequency of the tag. So even with the tags, for a person to find out what is in your home they would have to break in and go through your stuff, just like there were no tags at all.

 

Bill

 

This source says the ID cards have a 20 foot range, & it seems even the government can't come to a consensus about whether the benefit is worth the invasion of our privacy.

 

http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,72019-0.html?tw=wn_index_1

 

The story seems simple enough. An outside privacy and security advisory committee to the Department of Homeland Security penned a tough report concluding the government should not use chips that can be read remotely in identification documents. But the report remains stuck in draft mode, even as new identification cards with the chips are being announced.

...

The draft report concludes that "RFID appears to offer little benefit when compared to the consequences it brings for privacy and data integrity" -- a finding that was widely criticized by RFID industry officials when the committee met in June.

 

It all depends it seems, which side of the chip you're on.:) :)

[Cedars]

Stumbled across this today. A five part series on the loss of privacy.

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15221095/

 

 

Seems we will all be getting tagged. Well those of us who have a state issued ID. (Part 4)

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15130989/

 

Sometime last year as I was purchacing a bottle for a weekend celebration, I was horrified as the clerk swiped my drivers license thru their machine. I wanted him to stop and he explained it was a new law that had gone into effect that they had to enter the DL info into the machine to verify I was old enough to purchace booze, and that my ID was real. I have never encountered this since at other bottle shops I go to, though most do check my ID (yay I still get carded!). I will never purchace from that particular chain again.

 

I dont want the state I live in compiling information on my habits so they can decide to make a new law to infringe on my choices or get more tax money. I dont want the car insurance industry using this data to raise my rates because they discover how much of the population actually makes these purchaces. And I sure dont want them to be able to identify me in particular as a risk (never had an alcohol related accident/incident).

 

I dont want walmart to be able to stock their shelves with the items that I buy most often. I want walmart to have the stuff I dont always buy, cuz sometimes I need something different than the norm or out of season.

 

Does anyone know of a method to block the ability for my future drivers license chip so I can prevent someone with a scanner inside his jacket, while walking around the mall, grocery store, diner, bar, concert, etc from reading the data from any card he comes close to?

[ck27]

All major stores are beginng to do that. I know target has been doing it for a while. Every time you pay with a check it memerizes information on whether your previous checks have gone through and than determined whether its gonna ask for id. Also we memerize people that pay with credit to determine whether to give them the store credit card. I think with the id thing it doesn't do anything but just check the id, its just the way of making it easier for the cashier. Also stores really dont trust there cashiers that much so they like the machine to determine as much as it can. All im saying is alot more stores are beginning to swipe ids and are doing the whole memerzing your purchasing habits from previous times if you use a check or card. Obviously if you use cash they cant track you. I know best buy if you pay with cash i think they ask for your phone number claiming its to help you make a return if you loose your receipt.

 

 

Stumbled across this today. A five part series on the loss of privacy.

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15221095/

 

 

Seems we will all be getting tagged. Well those of us who have a state issued ID. (Part 4)

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15130989/

 

Sometime last year as I was purchacing a bottle for a weekend celebration, I was horrified as the clerk swiped my drivers license thru their machine. I wanted him to stop and he explained it was a new law that had gone into effect that they had to enter the DL info into the machine to verify I was old enough to purchace booze, and that my ID was real. I have never encountered this since at other bottle shops I go to, though most do check my ID (yay I still get carded!). I will never purchace from that particular chain again.

 

I dont want the state I live in compiling information on my habits so they can decide to make a new law to infringe on my choices or get more tax money. I dont want the car insurance industry using this data to raise my rates because they discover how much of the population actually makes these purchaces. And I sure dont want them to be able to identify me in particular as a risk (never had an alcohol related accident/incident).

 

I dont want walmart to be able to stock their shelves with the items that I buy most often. I want walmart to have the stuff I dont always buy, cuz sometimes I need something different than the norm or out of season.

 

Does anyone know of a method to block the ability for my future drivers license chip so I can prevent someone with a scanner inside his jacket, while walking around the mall, grocery store, diner, bar, concert, etc from reading the data from any card he comes close to?

[IDMclean]

I have to wonder, what is privacy, and what do these people who are opposed to data collection regarding their habits have to hide?

 

I personally have very little to hide, and of what I do have to hide is just a personal security issue.

 

Cedar, so you buy alcohol? So what? A sizable body of the population buys alcohol, and cigarettes.

 

I dont want walmart to be able to stock their shelves with the items that I buy most often. I want walmart to have the stuff I dont always buy, cuz sometimes I need something different than the norm or out of season.

 

Walmart would more then likely use the information so gathered to stock enough of a given thing. At current you would be amazed at the ammount of waste that goes on. Remember Walmart caters to more than just your desires, it caters to an entire population's desires. That means it must stock a diverisity of items to meet the population demands.

 

Does anyone know of a method to block the ability for my future drivers license chip so I can prevent someone with a scanner inside his jacket, while walking around the mall, grocery store, diner, bar, concert, etc from reading the data from any card he comes close to?

 

Yeah, it's called 128 bit encryption + key, PGP comes to mind. I imagine if they are going to do something like this that they are going to encrypt and otherwise secure the crap out of the tags. Also I don't think that a person would be able to get the data you are thinking about, as if I am not mistaken, it has been iterated that the data would not be on the card but in databases, which a person with a reciever in their coat is not going to necessarily have access to.

 

Also think about what happens when that person get's caught with all that information, assuming they can collect the sensitive data that everyone thinks they will be able to get. Not that the card itself, which they would be reading from in the afforementioned example, would contain the data that people seem to ascribe them of having.

 

I could rifle through your wallet and read your ID, that doesn't mean it will be useful to me, nor easy to obtain that information.

 

Also, I have heard that they are coming out with digital photo authentication software which will stamp photos so that if they are altered it will be obvious. Perhaps one could use picture ID in a new way? Cell phone cameras and all that.

[alexander]

Does anyone know of a method to block the ability for my future drivers license chip so I can prevent someone with a scanner inside his jacket, while walking around the mall, grocery store, diner, bar, concert, etc from reading the data from any card he comes close to?

Yes and i already have it and use it for protection against someone trying to get my credit card info (those have rfids). The way to protect cards like that is to get a wallet that has a woven alluminum layer inside leather, that scews up radio signals so bad that it renders your rfid, while inside your wallet, unreadable. It has to be woven piece of alluminum foil, not just a regular piece because of its advantages in both being pliable, but also its rf properties make it work better for scrambling.

 

What else, there are fabrics that prevent electromagnetic waves from penetrating to your body, 2 in all that i saw so far, one will react to those metal detection wands, the other will not (i'll try to get you a link later on)

 

I have to wonder, what is privacy, and what do these people who are opposed to data collection regarding their habits have to hide?

You bring up an interesting question that i will attempt to answer.

 

What is privacy? Well, there is no privacy, privacy is dead, so how can you define something that does not exist anymore? as best as i can put it privacy is the ability of an individual or group to keep their lives and personal affairs out of public view, or to control the flow of information about themselves.

 

People that oppose data collection of their habbits may have something to hide, but privacy is much, much more then just that. I dont want people to collect information about my habbits, but i have nothing to hide, it is still giving out information about yourself, and that in itself is what i dont want some people to know (namely some gov-ts). Simply put, if "information is power", then it follows that my personal information of whatever kind, no matter what form it takes, confers power to the owner of that information. And as wiki puts it: "Few individuals, organisations or governments refrain from making judgements based on their own self interest and the information gained through the loss of privacy, tends towards ultimately being used to wrestle power and autonomy away from the individual."

 

they are going to encrypt and otherwise secure the crap out of the tags

Oh yeah and we all know that encryption is never getting broken... reality check anyone?

[Cedars]

All major stores are beginng to do that. I know target has been doing it for a while. Every time you pay with a check it memerizes information on whether your previous checks have gone through and than determined whether its gonna ask for id. Also we memerize people that pay with credit to determine whether to give them the store credit card. I think with the id thing it doesn't do anything but just check the id, its just the way of making it easier for the cashier. Also stores really dont trust there cashiers that much so they like the machine to determine as much as it can. All im saying is alot more stores are beginning to swipe ids and are doing the whole memerzing your purchasing habits from previous times if you use a check or card. Obviously if you use cash they cant track you. I know best buy if you pay with cash i think they ask for your phone number claiming its to help you make a return if you loose your receipt.

 

This is true CK.

 

The thing is I was paying cash for my booze that day. I am not troubled by a cashier checking my ID visually to ensure I am of legal age, I have a problem with them swiping it thru the machine to verify. For them to be able to verify suggests a link back to a government data base that confirms this is a legal purchace. Database information that can later be given to the insurance industry so they can use the information to raise car insurance costs statewide (cuz thats how it works here).

 

How? They will do math and show that the drunk driving statistics do not reflect the actual alcohol use in the state, and because we cannot raise the rates of just the people who purchace alcohol because we have no proof they were driving, but our data shows 8% more people purchace alcohol than previous statistics indicated (cuz people lie on surveys, applications, etc) we are going to raise the rates for all of Minnesota to recoup our losses (read lower profits). This rate hike is to PROTECT the people who have never had an alcohol related auto incident, because this past history does not guarentee that they wont have an alcohol related incident while driving a car we insure, so we are just being proactive for our business and when calculating the rates we were charging in the state of Minnesota, when we were using innacurate data. The raise hike we propose reflects that there are more people in Minnesota making alcohol purchaces than we knew about before. Its ALWAYS about profit.

 

1s and 0s are an electronic trail for some do-gooder at the state to become alerted to what I am doing. Its not much of a leap for the state to begin recording the purchace. There are some deptarments at the state which are becoming very invasive regarding its citizens and what should be none of their business. You may not remember a few years ago a push by the Health Dept to have all medical information given to them, by law, without your (the patients) consent. So there it would be, not only at your doctors office (depending on how sophisticated that office is) server, but on a state server.

 

Why does that matter? A few years ago a list of AIDs patients was forwarded to a news station. This AIDs patient list came from this very same Health Dept computers. It was supposed to be confidential, secure, and all the other promises made to "we the people", yet it only takes one person with access to disrupt many peoples lives. After the report by this station other individuals came forward and said they had been given this information also. Do you know how the state became aware of this compromise of the data? Via the news report. Just like so many people who are unaware they are victims of identity theft until long after their credit is trashed.

 

But Best Buy cannot refuse to sell to you if you dont give them your phone number. It was such an issue in this state with merchants demanding such info that it is now a law that they cannot require your phone number. Not one to wait for the law to catch up with the situation, I never gave them my real phone number anyways. But swiping my drivers license to obtain the information that I should be able to keep private (and off numerous databases) is a workaround that takes away my personal privacy.

 

http://www.uspto.gov/web/menu/busmethp/6070147.html

 

"This information is used to tap into third party databases to gather further identification or demographic information about consumers."

 

"The driver's license has many advantages over privately-issued loyalty marketing program cards, and is useful not only because it is already in the hands of much of the population, but also because it allows the merchant to tap into a large amount of demographic information about people holding driver's license cards. "

 

"A system employing the present invention may be the only practical way to get much of the information about the consumer because the consumer may be unwilling to provide some information (e.g., birth date) directly. "

 

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:WwUXgtgbyw4J:www.incits.org/tc_home/b10htm/b10p_2003_docs/b10_03n3032.PDF+%22minnesota%22+and+%22drivers+license+cards%22+and+%22magnetic+strip%22&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1&ie=UTF-8

 

Takes some weeding thru alot of information but the thing is they are talking about contactless readers and how to implement this. Smart cards. Banking tangled up with government, tangled up with passports, for multi entity interoperability. More people with more access to information that I dont want passed around without my knowledge.

 

In my former employment I had access to thousands of S.S. numbers. I wasnt the only person with this access. There were many people who resisted giving that bit of information to us, information that was not needed but was a method of identification in our computer system. What happened to the people who refused, they were told their process would stop and go no further. Not for any reason other than identification. They should have been given an option (and our computer system DID assign its own seperate idenfication number) to opt out but they were not given this choice.

 

http://www.infoworld.com/article/06/10/24/HNactividentity_1.html?DIGITAL%20RIGHTS%20MANAGEMENT

 

"Hart predicted the U.S. government's move to biometric smart cards will spur the use of smart cards in private industry as well. Smart cards that combine credit or debit card functions, computer encryption, e-mail user authentication and other functions will become common in the next five years or so, he predicted. "

 

Part of the issue is the lack of choice as to whether or not walmart, target, health dept, etc can use information on me without my permission for marketing research, lifestyle choices, or any other aspect that shouldnt automatically be a part of the public domain because I went shopping.

 

Part of the issue is the responsibilty I have to protect my data from people who may or may not use it for their own personal gain. Marketing research is not about personal gain for me, its about another entity trying to figure out how to seperate me from my money and I dont want to help them do that.

[Cedars]

I have to wonder, what is privacy, and what do these people who are opposed to data collection regarding their habits have to hide?

 

I personally have very little to hide, and of what I do have to hide is just a personal security issue.

 

 

 

Would you post your real name, address and birthdate here on hypography for 24 hours?

 

I mean out of the billions of people on the planet, there will only be a few hundred people that read it.

 

 

If not, why? do you have something to hide? You say you have very little to hide so whats the problem? Whats the big deal if such a few people know this information for 24 hours? Do you have a reason to fear someone here will look you up? Is there someone at hypography that you have a specific reason to fear having this information?

 

C'mon KAC, step up and take the Pepsi challenge with this same information that will be read via a simple swipe of a drivers license/state ID every day for the rest of your life.