RFID - Invasion of Privacy or good business

[Cedars]

A bit off topic, but then again its right on topic...

 

Sometimes I get in a mood to test the system. Today I forgot to check to see if I had enough cash on me before messing with their heads. Oh well...

 

I have been frequenting this one gas station for YEARS. Like 20+. Never a bad check (not just at this store, but in my entire check writting history). Never forgot to pay. Never been a bad customer. About two years ago they implemented Tele-Check. Ok Fine. Then about a year ago they started asking for the DL on some purchaces. I asked why and they said "it must have been a while since you wrote a check here" or "your purchace is over $50 and it prompts us for alot of those". I took that at face value.

 

Then this one merchants machine started to buzz me every time I wrote a check there. The amount didnt matter. DL needed. And they would swipe the card. Horrified, I began to question this. They need it to approve the check I was told. But my bank doesnt have my drivers license number I responded. The poor clerk could only give a shrug and I know they are just doing their job.

 

Today the owner was working. He knows I am a regular customer. He knows I dont write bad checks. So when the machine buzzed for my DL I said I dont have it on me. I was treated like a criminal. I was lied to by the owner (he says its out of his control what the company sets on his machine) He also claimed there was no way to take the check without it verified (another lie because the machine has gone down in the past and they had no problem taking my check without this feature).

 

I paid for my gas in cash and left.

 

I drove to the station across the street and bought merchandise that I had wanted but didnt have the cash for. I wrote a check. The manager (who was at the counter and doing my transaction) did not ask to even see my DL.

 

So the dependence on this machine has lost the first business a regular customer. I found a station that doesnt assume that because I write a check I am a potential criminal.

 

So I began to explore Tele-check to find out why. Basically, it seems to be the merchants own settings on his account. I say this because other places in town which use telecheck do not prompt me for greater amounts spent (such as the weekly or bi-weekly grocery trips).

 

A good article on tele-check and its weakness:

Telecheck Services: Benefits and Downfalls - Associated Content

 

A notable quote from above:

"I fully support the "weeding out" of people who write back checks, but when it affects the ability for upstanding citizens to make purchases, things have gone a little too far."

[Tormod]

Sorry to hear that, Cedars!

 

Here in Norway there is no such thing as a "check" anymore. It's bank (credit or debit) cards or cash, no exceptions.

 

Of course, card scams are nothing to laugh at but at least I've yet to be treated as a criminal.

[Zythryn]

Also sorry to hear that Cedars.

My guess is the first business just got nailed once too often with check scams while the second has been lucky. Therefore the looser policies.

Checks are absolutely the worse for businesses. Fraud is rampant and the 'check authorization' companies are not very good at what they do, and cost more than credit card fees.

I would not be surprised to see checks disappear entirely in a few years.

[freeztar]

I haven't written a check in about 2 years now and I could care less about their fate, but I do sympathize with your experiences Cedars. I like to carry cash with me nowadays as it's accepted nearly everywhere (except my insurance company) and does not require any kind of verification.

 

I just read this entire thread from front to back (took me about 3.5 hours) and I must say that this is a good discussion.

 

RFIDs do not scare me as of yet, but I do feel that guidance is needed.

I'm certainly against data mining and am left wondering how it is legitimate (but that's a different thread). If the tech for the RFIDs became efficient enough to associate personal data with demographical advertisements at long range, then I would say things are out of control. I agree with previous posters that I do not mind the register recording the purchase of an apple as long as my ID is not associated with it. Paying with cash seems to circumvent the issue entirely unless you have a situation like Cedars had while making a cash purchase at a bottle shop (they asked for DL and scanned it through some type of scanner to prove age).

 

All in all, I don't see the RFIDs as menacing as people make them out to be, but I certainly don't support them either. I hope cash never disappears...

[Cedars]

I think this example is perfect for what is wrong with allowing companies to build "profiles" on what is average and it is based on 'data mining'. The link describes a situation of a business checking account with plenty of cash behind it, being denied for a lack of activity.

 

I know if I would have coughed up the DL the check would have gone thru. But this is a merchants setting, and it seems this particular merchant has requested settings that exclude a real portion of regular people. As the varied responses indicate, many use a combination of methods to pay for things and this doesnt seem to be taken into account with check profiling.

 

And the hostility I was facing from this particular merchant over my not producing a DL was astounding, combined with the lies... I could have, but chose not to point out his pumps are not clearly marked regarding this method of check acceptance and his lack of warning to the consumer negates his demands for the DL (at least that used to be the law here). The reliance on a machine has over-ridden the value of face to face personal knowledge of a customer. I became an unknown based on a data stream, rather than fact.

 

Another thing that bugged me, that I didnt post was the fact that to clear up a denial of valid checks, you can contact the company and volunteer information that is supposed to stop incidents like the bookstore (not that it would have changed my situation). Of course that requires you hand over your s.s. number for them to enter into their system. So its really not about validation of a check. Its about being able to hunt you down later.

 

I agree with freeztar in hoping that cash never disapears and I do also pay for alot of stuff with cash.

[DougF]

I also haven't written a check in about 10 years now and too could care less about their fate, but I do sympathize with your experiences Cedars.

i usually use debit card (really same as a check) .

I don't see the RFIDs as menacing as people make them out to be, but I certainly don't support them either.

Originally Posted by Turtle

 

First' date=' the US Constitution guarantees the right to privacy without regard to any reason a person may assert it. People can, and are, using these RFID devices to corrupt that right and I decry it.[/Quote']

 

I think you might have a point here did you know that Commercial data brokers are compiling and selling information every day on buying habits.

 

Personal data trade: Who buys and sells your information - May. 9, 2005

by selling "header" information from your credit report to credit card companies and other lenders interested in mass marketing credit offers to consumers.

 

Included in a header are your name' date=' address, phone number, date of birth and Social Security number. [/Quote']

By law' date=' the bureaus can't sell credit report information for non-credit purposes. But they have a second, unregulated line of business in which they collect data that they can sell to businesses offering non-credit products and to government agencies, Hendricks said.

 

That information can include everything available in public records, such as driver's license information, to specifics on your buying habits.[/Quote']

 

Retailers and manufacturers

From Mom-and-Pop shops to nationwide drug stores and supermarkets to the manufacturer of your coffeemaker' date=' there's information companies collect on you and may sell to information brokers.

 

That information can come from your use of a store loyalty/discount card, a product warranty form, or a consumer survey.

 

For instance, a supermarket offering a discount card can create a detailed profile of your consumption habits, including not only what you eat, but what alcohol and pharmaceuticals you consume, according to the Electronic Privacy Information Center. And there's nothing legally preventing them from selling that information to, say, a health insurer.

 

A warranty card, meanwhile, may ask for information unrelated to your purchase, such as your income, age and interests or ailments. [/Quote']

They then package and resell the data to a host of parties' date=' many of whom were the original sources of the information: government agencies, businesses, investigators, debt collectors and lawyers.

 

The amount of information they have on you extends to the identities and contact information for your relatives and neighbors, along with a list of assets, licenses, bankruptcies, liens, business affiliations and criminal offenses. A full dossier on a consumer at ChoicePoint, for example, can run as long as 30 pages or more.

 

While the records are intended for "legitimate" use by employers, landlords, insurers and others, identity thieves have been able to access them. [/Quote']

 

:hihi: what are you going to do? :lol:

Me, I try to stay in the background, in the shadows maybe they won't see me, I'm not really here. :eek:

[freeztar]

And in the news...

Microchips in humans: High-tech helpers or Big Brother surveillance? - CNN.com

[Turtle]

And in the news...

Microchips in humans: High-tech helpers or Big Brother surveillance? - CNN.com

 

I have bolded the key terms in the quote below. The company is intent on wearing us down & chipping us in spite of ourselves. :D Forewarned, is no chip in the forearmed. ;)

 

VeriChip Corp., whose parent company has been selling radio tags for animals for more than a decade, has sold 7,000 microchips worldwide, of which about 2,000 have been implanted in humans.

 

The company's present push: tagging of "high-risk" patients -- diabetics and people with heart conditions or Alzheimer's disease.

...

The relative permanence is a big reason why Marc Rotenberg, of the Electronic Privacy Information Center, is suspicious about the motives of the company, which charges $20 a year for customers to keep one its database a record of blood type, allergies, medications, driver's license data and living-will directives. For $80 a year, it will keep an individual's full medical history.

[DougF]

I have bolded the key terms in the quote below. I never thought that this was going on in society, I knew that they were talking about this but I never thought it would be implemented. :eplane:

 

 

 

VeriChip Corp.' date=' whose parent company has been selling radio tags for animals for more than a decade, has sold 7,000 microchips worldwide, [b']of which about 2,000 have been implanted in humans[/b].

[Turtle]

I have bolded the key terms in the quote below. I never thought that this was going on in society, I knew that they were talking about this but I never thought it would be implemented. :hihi:

 

Verichip has got a product and they won't stop pushing it until they get one in every living creature. Fortunately, they are meeting some resistance on putting them in peeps.

 

Tackling a dilemma right out of a science fiction novel, the state Senate passed legislation Thursday that would bar employers from requiring workers to have identification devices implanted under their skin.

Senate blocks mandatory ID implants in employees - Los Angeles Times

[DougF]

Out of this article I found this statement (That I agree with)

"RFID is a minor miracle' date=' with all sorts of good uses," Simitian said. "But we shouldn't condone forced 'tagging' of humans. It's the ultimate invasion of privacy."

 

Simitian said he fears that the devices could be compromised by persons with unauthorized scanners, facilitating identity theft and improper tracking and surveillance. [/quote']

I can see all kinds of ligament uses for this (But I don't think I want one) with thermal tracking we could see where all the people in a given area are, and with RFID you would know which people were not your employees (A good thing if your looking for a terrorist , I still think I would not work in a job that I had to have one.

[Buffy]

Too lazy to look it up right now, but a recent issue of The Economist (I think it was the last Technology Quarterly issue), sez that RFID has turned out to be a big disappointment:

• Wal*Mart and the US DoD forced suppliers to implement it, and Wal*Mart has seen some savings in inventory and supply chain management (more efficient re-order points), but not what they were expecting.
  
• Manufacturers have found almost no benefit whatsoever: they know what they have made and what's in inventory and its tremendously simple compared to wholesalers and retailers.
  
• Even though the cost of the devices has dropped drastically, Wal*Mart et al refuse to pay for the increased costs, so the manufacturers are starting to resist, and because they Wal*Mart can't refuse a deal, they're even buying non-RFID'd products in selective situations.
  
• There is a huge incompatibility problem even in the second generation of RFID tags and readers that is makes it hard even for the likes of Wal*Mart to get the full advantage out of it because they have to have different equipment for different types of products from different locations around the world (the standards are different between the US and the EU for example (of course! )
  

Even the proponents and RFID are having a hard time justifying the overhead to anyone outside of large-scale distribution and retail, so its hit a major bump in the road and investors have gotten the jitters.

 

Looks like it will be a while before there's a chip in every Post-it note, tomato and brain.

 

Four legs good, two legs bad,

Buffy

[Turtle]

[RFID's in animals]

Four legs good, two legs bad, :)

Buffy

 

or, not so much. :doh:

Chip Implants Linked to Animal Tumors - washingtonpost.com

-- When the U.S. Food and Drug Administration approved implanting microchips in humans' date=' the manufacturer said it would save lives, letting doctors scan the tiny transponders to access patients' medical records almost instantly. The FDA found "reasonable assurance" the device was safe, and a sub-agency even called it one of 2005's top "innovative technologies."

 

But neither the company nor the regulators publicly mentioned this: A series of veterinary and toxicology studies, dating to the mid-1990s, stated that chip implants had "induced" malignant tumors in some lab mice and rats. ...[/quote']

[Turtle]

:)

 

Prisoners 'to be chipped like dogs' - Independent Online Edition > UK Politics

Ministers are planning to implant "machine-readable" microchips under the skin of thousands of offenders as part of an expansion of the electronic tagging scheme that would create more space in British jails.

...

One company plans deeper implants that could vibrate, electroshock the implantee, broadcast a message, or serve as a microphone to transmit conversations. "Some folks might foolishly discount all of these downsides and futuristic nightmares since the tagging is proposed for criminals like rapists and murderers," Ms McIntyre said. "The rest of us could be next."

[DougF]

What will they think of next, wait don't answer that. :(

 

Proposal to Implant Tracking Chips in Immigrants

Scott Silverman' date=' Chairman of the Board of VeriChip Corporation, has proposed implanting the company's RFID tracking tags in immigrant and guest workers. He made the statement on national television on May 16.

 

Silverman was being interviewed on "Fox & Friends." Responding to the Bush administration's call to know "who is in our country and why they are here," he proposed using VeriChip RFID implants to register workers at the border, and then verify their identities in the workplace. He added, "We have talked to many people in Washington about using it...." [/quote']

 

 

Proposal to Implant Tracking Chips in Immigrants | LiveScience

[DougF]

And this is the next step. :doh:

 

Prisoners 'to be chipped like dogs'

Hi-tech 'satellite' tagging planned in order to create more space in jails

Civil rights groups and probation officers furious at 'degrading' scheme

By Brian Brady' date=' Whitehall Editor

Published: 13 January 2008

Ministers are planning to implant "machine-readable" microchips under the skin of thousands of offenders as part of an expansion of the electronic tagging scheme that would create more space in British jails.

 

Amid concerns about the security of existing tagging systems and prison overcrowding, the Ministry of Justice is investigating the use of satellite and radio-wave technology to monitor criminals.

 

But, instead of being contained in bracelets worn around the ankle, the tiny chips would be surgically inserted under the skin of offenders in the community, to help enforce home curfews. The radio frequency identification (RFID) tags, as long as two grains of rice, are able to carry scanable personal information about individuals, including their identities, address and offending record. [/quote']

 

Prisoners 'to be chipped like dogs' - Independent Online Edition > UK Politics

[CraigD]

Prisoners 'to be chipped like dogs' - Independent Online Edition > UK Politics

Proposal to Implant Tracking Chips in Immigrants | LiveScience

Privacy issues aside, both of these articles quote statements that don’t make sense technically.

 

The first article, by the Independent, appears to be, and the second one, by LiveScience, explicitly, is referring to the VeriChip implantable RFID.

 

The VeriChip is a very simple, read-only RFID, capable only of transmitting a 16 character decimal number when supplied with a suitable radio frequency power source (a reader). Its range is very short, at best about .5 m, but typically a couple of cm. It’s not programmable (can’t store data other than its 16 digit ID #), has no GPS or other position-finding capability, and has absolutely no security features (it transmits its ID when it receives power, with no attempt at verification).

 

This device is intended for uses where the possibility of fraud is effectively nil, such as identifying lost pets or people who are without usual ID documents, such as a drivers license, as is the case with a patient in a hospital or long-term care facility, or a person suffering from a disability such as severe mental retardation, schizophrenia, or senile dementia. Although to the best of my knowledge, no one has yet made a counterfeit VeriChip (not to be confused with programming another type of programmable RFID to appear identical to a VeriChip when read), such fraud should be easy, as is the removal and re-implanting of one in a animal or person other than the original recipient.

 

In short, the device is simply ill-suited for the uses being discussed.

 

I get the impression that VeriChip Corp., having established an early lead in marketing implantable RFIDs, is pressing to gain as much of this potentially huge market as possible, and is thus acting … the way salespeople are prone to act when intent on securing new markets.

 

Though implanted GPS receivers are much talked about, there are substantial technical hurtles between the idea and technical reality. Even the smallest GPS antenna is still big (no dimension under 1 cm) for an office procedure implanted device. Even the thriftiest miniature GPS receiver is still much too power-hungry than feasible for an externally powered RFID. These are not trivial issues.