Muhammed drawings and free speech

[CraigD]

There must be a lot of anger brewing up in the Muslim population, and it seems to me that the cartoon issue is just an excuse to vent lots and lots of aggression.

I believe this hits the nail on the head. There are a lot of confused, disheartened, humiliated, and/or angry Muslims in the world now, significantly more, I believe, than there were 5 years ago.

 

I fear that the policies of my country (the USA) and its allies are mostly to blame for this. They have, both by implication and in plain speech by their highest officials, promoted a series of deeply insulting messages, among them:

• Muslims are, compared to non-Muslims, more hateful and murderous, and less worthy of trust
  
• Because of this alleged propensity for violence, many or most Muslims are not following the strictures of their own religion, which mean, after all “peace” (Islam).
  
• Despite their alleged viciousness, it’s no great task for a few hundred thousand Christian Americans, aided by our superior technology, to put these Muslims in their place, and assure they do no further harm to America or her allies

Watching these messages have their effect on the world has been a painful experience for many these past years. Alas, it seems that even the best efforts of Christians, Muslims, and people of all other religions or non-religions to oppose this trend have been little effective. I recall hearing, shortly after 9/11/01, and interview with a prominent American Buddhist monk, in which he said (paraphrasing from my own recollection):

When I heard of the attacks, I immediately felt angry. Because of my training, I knew this anger to be hurtful, so I tried to imagine what the hijackers were feeling when they did this terrible thing. Immediately, behind their anger, I knew that they felt great fear. What fear can be so great to make a person do such a terrible thing?! My natural instinct is to comfort the fearful, so I immediately stopped feeling angry, and felt love.

Words like this, and similar ones from Christian and other religious and secular leaders, seem to have been drown out by angry cries for overwhelming revenge. More people appear to accept the strategy of answering violence with violence than of answering fear, hate, and anger with compassion. I believe this to be a serious moral error, which has increased, and will continue to increase, suffering and unhappiness in all the people of Earth.

[Qfwfq]

I think a cartoon showing Mohammed with a bomb in his turban is stretching it, but it *is* a valid comment when we know that a lot of militant Muslim groups are waging wars against anything they don't like, in the name of Islam.

It isn't valid to imply something about Islam and Muslims which is only true about those groups.

 

And Q, Italy has printed the cartoons too, so you're now officially a target. Sorry mate.

Here in Italy there is a law by which, if a paper publishes something that concerns you and you consider fallacious or whatever, you can demand the same paper to publish with equal evidence statements that rectify the first publication. I'm sure that any Muslims here will be able to have the law applied if they show that some of those cartoons are within the scope of that law.

[Tormod]

It isn't valid to imply something about Islam and Muslims which is only true about those groups.

 

Okay, I get your point. The only way to use satire about a group, say a religious people, fundamentalists, or teachers, you have to include *every* aspect of *everything* that they *might* be interested in.

 

But the problem is of course that to comment on something in a satirical manner, you simplify things and choose one perspective. That's exactly what those cartoons do. Or are you going to tell me that "all Italians never make fun of other people"?

 

Here in Italy there is a law by which, if a paper publishes something that concerns you and you consider fallacious or whatever, you can demand the same paper to publish with equal evidence statements that rectify the first publication. I'm sure that any Muslims here will be able to have the law applied if they show that some of those cartoons are within the scope of that law.

 

Yes. I hope they use that law rather than take up arms. That's why we have laws, no?

[InfiniteNow]

Most every religious group gets infuriated when they feel they are being belittled in a public forum. Christians freak out too when cartoons seem to go against their ideas... cartoons that "Blaspheme."

 

There was cartoon a few years back in the Boston Globe that had the Pope holding a baby with a bunch of women in bikinis behind him. The quote was something like, "No, not us. We still make our babies the old fashioned way." It was meant to illustrate the Christian churche's stance against cloning technology. *Many* Christians freaked out... wrote hateful letters to the Globe, asking the cartoonist to be fired and cancelling their subscriptions, and holding rallies outside. However, the pope is still a living being, and a political one at that, but they still freaked out.

 

Part of the trouble here is it's against Muslim "policy" (sorry, can't think of a better word at the moment...maybe doctrine or principles) to depict the prophet Mohammed in any way shape or form. So, regardless of the content of the cartoons, even if they were praising him as the most amazing super hero ever, it'd have caused some discontent. (Which seems kind of strange to me since they name so many of their sons Mohammed, but anyway...)

 

I heard also that part of the reason that there's this uproar (besides arrogance, ignorance, and the search for attention through violence) is that there was some article previous stating that Norwegians were too unconfrontational with Muslims... that they would never do anything to upset them. The paper took this as a bit of a challenge and published the cartoons to show, "Hey, we publish what we want and when we want."

 

 

This whole situation (and others like it) is just indicative of a greater, underlying discontent in society (not just Muslims, but everywhere and everyone)... like a pressure cooker whistling. It's going to burst really powerfully soon enough. Just looking at the posts in this thread demonstrates it pretty quickly. Look at the **** storm this topic has raised... even among us, the educated, intelligent, and searching individuals of Hypograpy.

[TheFaithfulStone]

Madness! Madness, madness, madness!

 

It's funny how everyone is for free speech until it steps on their toes. Well, ain't that the ***** about rights? Everybody's got 'em. Do I get upset when people say "secular humanism is the reason the world is such a bad place!" Well, yeah. Do Christians get upset when Andres Serrano displays "Piss Christ" (Which is singularly misunderstood, I have to add.) Well, yeah.

 

Here is the thing people. You do NOT have the right to never be offended. Your particular monkey affliation is not special.

 

That said, I'm continually amazed and horrified by "Islamic Culture." I am horrified that it has seemingly been entirely hijacked by the right-wing - but then I realize that Christianity has basically this same problem.

 

Rodney King was by no means a great speaker or even a particularly intelligent man - but he did coin a great amphorism. "Why can't we all just get along?"

 

Or, alternatively, we can kill each other! Yeah, let's do that one instead!

 

TFS

[Tormod]

Here is the thing people. You do NOT have the right to never be offended. Your particular monkey affliation is not special.

 

Well put.

[C1ay]

Tell me C1ay what is the thing the US have done right away after 911? They invaded Afghanistan : a terrorist revenge act selling it as something good because of the bad Talibans ...with the main aim of eliminating al-qaida.

I don't particularly agree that was a terrorist attack. An act of war was made against U.S. citizens. The Taliban had a choice though, they had 4 weeks to expel those attackers from Afghanistan but chose to harbor that enemy that the U.S. had a right to pursue. If you think that was a terrorist attack we will have to agree to disagree.

[TheBigDog]

I think that it would be interesting to have similar cartoons portraying Jesus, or Moses, and see whether people would still defend them as much.

I don't hear defense of the pictures. I hear defense of free speech, and criticism of knee-jerk terrorist threats. This isn't "an eye for an eye". This is "Your mother, your father, your wife, your sons, your daughters, your dog, your neighbor, your life, your country, your freedom, your peace... for 12 cartoons"

 

Look at how people here take such freedom of speech for granted. There are daily attacks on any type of any mention of a creator, and while there are believers here, by and large the debates are dominated by the atheists. Probably because the bulk of the believers just wish to leave well enough alone and focus on what we have in common.

 

Now imagine one of the Hypography players were a terrorist. I start a thread asking people to post a picture of God. Pictures are posted, and people exchange opinions and laughs and ideas. What begins as a healthy debate thread about religion ends with pictures of someone with a gun to their head and demands that not just a retraction, but a refutation of beliefs is made or the person will be killed in 24 hours. Would that be cool? Would anyone be rushing to the defense of the person threatening an innocent life because of a difference of theological opinion expressed in the form of pictures? If not, why is anyone rushing to the defense of the Islamics who are threatening violence over these cartoons?

 

Check yourselves people! This is not ambiguous.

 

Bill

[arkain101]

Things are alot more different there than I could of imagined.

 

Something tells me this has nothing to do with the drawings themself though.

 

There is root to reaction. (if a gun goes off and one person cries and another person doenst flinch, well there is root to those reactions)

 

I dont feel comfortable even forming an opinion on the subject, but it does sound like an inevitble even that got triggered by these cartoons. I'd put money on the fact that this is not the first drawings someone has made of whatever it is muhammad is.

[C1ay]

It's funny how everyone is for free speech until it steps on their toes.

I support free speech, period. That doesn't mean there should be no consequences for irresponsible free speech though. You can't yell fire in a crowded theatre when there's no fire. Newspapers across Europe have intentionally antagonized the Islamic community needlessly.

 

OTOH, death threats over political cartoons are inexcusable terroristic threats. Particularly threats against the whole citizenship of various countries over the actions of a lone newspaper. If the Islamic community wants the world to know they are this thin skinned then they need not be offended that the world distrusts them.

 

I really don't think we're seeing the whole Islamic community up in arms though. I think it's mostly the younger rebellious types making a bunch of noise. I think many older Muslims will just shrug off these cartoons as juvenile insults unworthy of acknowledgement.

[TheBigDog]

I really don't think we're seeing the whole Islamic community up in arms though. I think it's mostly the younger rebellious types making a bunch of noise. I think many older Muslims will just shrug off these cartoons as juvenile insults unworthy of acknowledgement.

I am hopeful that that you are right about that, C1ay. It would be nice to hear from them though. Even if all they can muster is electing the Islamic Nixon.

 

Bill

[C1ay]

It would be nice to hear from them though.

Yep but don't count on it. Any Muslim that denounces current protests will themselves become a target in the Islamic community. It may appear that some of them tacitly condone the current threatening protests when they are actually just keeping their mouth shut to prevent any harm to themself.

[Tormod]

It is escalating now.

 

Muslim protesters target embassies over cartoons

 

Fires set at Danish, Norwegian embassies in Syria

 

DAMASCUS, Syria (CNN) -- Muslim demonstrators in Damascus, Syria, torched the Norwegian Embassy and the building housing Denmark's embassy, because newspapers in those countries had published what they consider blasphemous depictions of Islam's Prophet Mohammed.

 

Thousands of angry Muslims protested in other cities, including Islamabad, Pakistan; Baghdad, Iraq; Khartoum, Sudan; the Palestinian territories; and Jakarta, Indonesia.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/02/04/syria.cartoon/index.html

[TheBigDog]

It is escalating now.

So, should we stand down and let the pacifists come to terms on this one? Nobody was killed by these cartoons, and no damage was done to property. They were in fact a passive expression of a western impression of Mohammad. Now, do we apologize and cowtow to the enraged mob, and concede to their desires until they have tired of their retaliation, and then smile at them with their bloodied hands, call them brother and tell them that we love them?:cup:

 

Bill

[Tormod]

The "offended Muslims" are apparently nothing but an angry mob.

 

The attached image shows the Norwegian national symbol, which was mounted on the entrance to the torched embassy in Damaskus, Syria. The angry mob is dancing on it.

 

The Muslims who are so angered by cartoons which insulted them so much are apparently not above insulting anyone themselves.

 

They must have left their brains somewhere. If not, I am afraid this will only get much, much worse.

 

I cannot fathom what sort of religion they claim to defend, but it sure is not a peaceful and friendly one.

 

I don't know who shot this photo but I have stolen it from Aftenposten, one of Norway's national newspapers.

[C1ay]

I find the following observation peculiar. Small bands of Muslims are protesting these cartonns vehemently. Norwegian and Danish embassies are under attack. Protesters in Pakistan are chanting "Death to Denmark", "Death to France". Protesters attempted to storm the office of the Europen Union in Gaza because the caricatures were rerun in Bulgaria, Denmark, France, Germany, Italy and Spain. Yet, I haven't seen any news of Muslim protests in these countries, it's mostly been predominantly Islamic countries. Considering that France has the largest Muslim population in Europe, I wonder why we haven't seen any news that they are behaving like protesters elsewhere.

[TINNY]

I haven't managed to go through all the posts in this thread, but might just want to mention the worthiness of free speech.

 

I have a feeling that Western culture and governments have an illogical and unrealistic attraction to the concept of ‘free speech’. Even under Western law it is an established fact that free speech is not without limits; the example often given is that the concept of free speech does not give anyone the right to yell “fire’ in a crowded theater. But still, in many cases it seems that a relatively small issue in allowing ‘free speech’ is given precedence over the large amount of harm the effects of that speech might do to society. That some individual’s claimed right to free speech can be allowed when that speech can cause great harm or discomfort to human society, or even to a notable segment of society, seems so clearly to be an incorrect assessment of priorities that it must be considered bizarre.

 

There seems to be a failure to recognize the difference between freedom and license. Freedom is the right to do anything that is within acceptable limits; license is the use of power to act outside of the acceptable limits.