Muhammed drawings and free speech

[TheBigDog]

The cartoons are offensive, and I am disappointed that a newspaper would print them. I think that the newspaper had every right to print them, but printing them was still wrong, and immoral. The cartoons do nothing but portray Islam as a religion of hate, and destruction. However, two wrongs do not make a right, and the response that the cartoons have gotten is disproportionate. A more appropriate response may have been a boycott of the newspaper, and any media associated with that newspaper until a formal apology was issued.

From the point of view of the most fundamentalist Islamic zealot most of the cartoons are blasphemous because they portray an image of Mohammad. What I saw in the cartoons was a wide interpretation of what the image of Mohammad is. Some were aimed at showing a violent figure. Others were respectful in their portrayal. Others were so abstract that they were entirely off the point. I think that illustrates very clearly that we do not all see Islam though a single set of eyes.

 

Yet even here, where we are supposed to be stepping back and taking an objective look at the world, people are lumping all 12 cartoons into a single value equal to the most convenient denominator to justify their opinion.

 

As I said before, there is no hope for ammends when one side is so thin skinned that petty BS like this drives them over the edge, while they tolerate and even cheer far worse coming in the other direction. Respect must be mutual. Don't confuse evil's claims of abuse with intentions for peace if the claimed acts should end.

 

Bill

[Tormod]

It's an alarming escalation, with many pouring fuel on the fire to no purpose.

 

Have you ever read Huck Finn Tormod?

 

I think everyone on this entire planet is as dumb as a jackass.

 

Yes. It is incredible how this is allowed to balloon into something so big. :hihi:

 

I read Huck Finn as a child...must admit I don't get the connection... :lol:

[Tormod]

As I said before, there is no hope for ammends when one side is so thin skinned that petty BS like this drives them over the edge, while they tolerate and even cheer far worse coming in the other direction. Respect must be mutual. Don't confuse evil's claims of abuse with intentions for peace if the claimed acts should end.

 

There is a fact which makes the story much worse. After the cartoons were published, a group of Moslem leaders from Scandinavia traveled to Moslem countries and showed the cartoons to their governments, asking for a reaction.

 

So far, so good. But they brought along a couple of extra cartoons, some of which portayed Mohammed as a paedophile.

 

What on Earth were they thinking? Now they are saying that they did this just to underline the gravity of the situation.

 

Talk about throwing...no *hosing*... fuel on the fire.

[Tormod]

A new quote:

 

"Any insult to the Holy Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him) is an insult to more than 1 billion Muslims and an act like this must never be allowed to be repeated," Afghan President Hamid Karzai said in a statement.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/02/02/cartoons.wrap/index.html

 

So the prescription to insult 1/6th of this world's population is to draw a cartoon they don't like and print it in a newspaper (regardless of size).

 

What a bottomless pit of ignorance this is.

[whatdoiknowanyway]

Why is anyone in the least bit supprised at the outcry these cartoons have caused?

 

All any fundamentalist (whatever religion) needs is just the slightest excuse.

 

I have friends who are Christian, Muslim and Budhist. They know of my non belief and accept it. I accept their beliefs, if that is what they want to believe, but even I know better than to insult any man's religion.

 

I have serious doubts regarding the motives of the Newspapers involved.

 

As an Atheist, is there anywhere in this world I can go to escape all this madness?

[Tormod]

Why is anyone in the least bit supprised at the outcry these cartoons have caused?

 

All any fundamentalist (whatever religion) needs is just the slightest excuse.

 

Yes, I am surprised. I am an atheist myself but the Muslems I know have more rational ways to deal with issues than what we're seeing.

[whatdoiknowanyway]

By far the vast majority of Muslims are indeed rational, and are very capable of coping with these matters. Unfortunately, it is the small number of irrational people, as always, who stir up trouble and whip up the fears of others.

 

These are the people who grab the headlines, the faceless few who extol hatred and intollerence.

 

I am not supprised at the extent of the feelings so far shown.

 

Has anyone asked moderate muslims their oppinions?

 

Would they give a truthful answer or would they be intimidated by the ferocity of the recent outcrying?

 

It will take a very brave person to to stand up and argue the point with his fellow Muslims.

 

Time will tell.

[Cedars]

Cedars, I respect opinions but:isn't quite an opinion, in my opinion. :lol:

 

Sorry I entwined a bit of fact in with my opinion. Next time I will highlight facts for you. ;)

 

AFAIK it's a misconception and terrorism isn't jihad at all; the Qur'an makes presciptions about it that someone who agrees with war "for just causes" could hardly condemn. To avoid misunderstanding, I mean agreement distinct from that with the political motivations of a cause being just. Terrorism certainly doesn't match up with these prescriptions. If you don't trust my opinion... read, read, read!

 

:hihi:

 

If you want to live in this world, my advice is learn to get along with people, and learn mighty, mighty fast.

 

I never used the word "jihad" in my entire post. I even agreed they (muslims worldwide) have the right to protest this printing in non-violent ways if they want to. But this is about the threat of violence against persons who do not hold Islamic traditions as a part of their personal choice. Threats against free press. Threats against people who had absolutely nothing to do with the printing of these cartoons.

 

Men brandishing weapons to take over a European Union office is a violent act.

 

No one spray painted these pictures on a mosque. That would be an offense and a crime most governments would react to.

 

I am not threatening violence against anyone, yet you have the audacity to admonish me for suggesting that muslims who are offended should accept that not everyone has the same idealism? To even suggest it is I who does not get along with people when I never suggested violence as an answer shows you did not read my post in context (as your quotes of my post reveal) Your response ends with an implied threat 'learn mighty, mighty fast'. Or what? Are you saying I may be victimized by someone in defense of their religious idealism? Jihad anyone?

 

Rolls eyes

[Tormod]

And for those who hope to see some good news, a Jordanian paper (Al-Shihan) has decided to print the cartoons, and is asking "Muslims of the world" to calm down. I have no link but to quote a Norwegian paper, "What is it that really causes prejudice against Islam? These comics, photos of hostage takers who slit their hostage's throats, or suicide bombers blowing themselves up at a wedding in Amman?" (Quote from Aftenposten).

 

Probably the most intelligent comment I've read in a long time.

 

...and it took four hours for the paper's owners to sack the editor.

 

This is indeed gearing up to become a war about the freedom of speech in Europe, versus the angry fundamentalism of the entire Muslim population. Incredible.

[C1ay]

"Any insult to the Holy Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him) is an insult to more than 1 billion Muslims and an act like this must never be allowed to be repeated," Afghan President Hamid Karzai said in a statement.

yet...

Iran's Foreign Ministry has summoned Austrian Ambassador Stigel Bauer, as representing the European Union, to protest the publication, the Islamic Republic News Agency reported.

 

What a contrast of reaction among Muslim leaders too.

[pgrmdave]

I think that it would be interesting to have similar cartoons portraying Jesus, or Moses, and see whether people would still defend them as much.

[Qfwfq]

How great a contrast of reaction is that C1ay? :cup:

 

However, two wrongs do not make a right, and the response that the cartoons have gotten is disproportionate. A more appropriate response may have been a boycott of the newspaper, and any media associated with that newspaper until a formal apology was issued.

Well put, however those papers were deliberate about provoking terrorists.

 

What I saw in the cartoons was a wide interpretation of what the image of Mohammad is. Some were aimed at showing a violent figure. ...... I think that illustrates very clearly that we do not all see Islam though a single set of eyes.

These are the very problems.

 

Before expressing misinformed opinions about Islam on a very public platform, one should read, read, read.

 

I never used the word "jihad" in my entire post.

I didn't mean you did. I was talking about how those cartoons portray Islam.

 

A smaller but relevant misconception is France Soir's headline, "Yes, one has the right to caricature God." No France Soir, They did not portray God they portrayed the Prophet. Demand freedom of speach but try to be informed and to understand the reasons of things.

 

I read Huck Finn as a child...must admit I don't get the connection...

Both sides throwing fuel on the fire, just like family feuds. The way the boy tells Huck the tale, repeating "like anybody would" at each step, is highly emblematic of how stupid the whole thing is.

 

CNN, in your link, says they chose not to repeat the cartoons out of respect. Consider this too:

 

As a democracy, Indonesia welcomed freedom of expression but drew the line at mocking sacred religious symbols, he said.

 

"I think this is not only about a bilateral issue between Indonesia and Denmark, this is a much more serious issue ... It involves the whole Islamic world vis-a-vis Denmark and vis-a-vis the trend of Islamophobia," Thamrin added.

 

http://today.reuters.com/News/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2006-02-03T072730Z_01_JAK7341_RTRUKOC_0_US-RELIGION-CARTOONS-INDONESIA.xml

 

I have friends who are Christian, Muslim and Budhist. They know of my non belief and accept it. I accept their beliefs, if that is what they want to believe, but even I know better than to insult any man's religion.

 

I have serious doubts regarding the motives of the Newspapers involved.

Exactly.

[Qfwfq]

P. S. I keep forgetting to add:

 

Look at how the past few years of intifada started.

[Tormod]

Q, I'm a little confused about your posts. You keep saying that the papers who printed the cartoons "deliberately provoke terrorists". But the first cartoons did not provoke a reaction until Muslim leaders, as I wrote above, went touring Muslim countries and even showed false and much more compromising drawings. That's how the fire started to get fuel. Now how did they get those drawings unless they had someone make them for them?

 

Also, when the Afghan president can say that the cartoons are insulting a billion Muslims, I get worried. How can he be so sure? Is *every single* Muslim offended? I know for a fact that this is not true.

 

I would be very surprised if the French president stood up and commented that some Jesus satire in a Muslim paper was an insult to a billion Christians.

 

The point, being, that we're seeing a really fundamental difference between Europe and the Arab countries: while the Arab leaders keep fighting over everything they are united in one thing - they are not afraid to reveal their deep, fundamentalist hatred. And those who happen to do otherwise, are sacked or killed.

 

European editors are also waging a war now...who is coolest? Is it best to publish and risk getting sacked? Or is it best to remain friendly with everyone and not publish? Then why do CNN and a large Swedish paper care to *tell us* that they do not want to publish the drawings?

 

It's a free press. They don't have to publish the drawings. But the papers that have done so, were free to do so.

 

These are the fundamental issues to me.

 

I think that it would be interesting to have similar cartoons portraying Jesus, or Moses, and see whether people would still defend them as much.

 

Well, it's happened for hundreds of years already.

 

Take your pick - mostly satire but some drawings here and there:

 

http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/Humor.html

http://www.infidels.org/misc/humor/

http://www.comedyclub.co.za/feature/archivegod.html

 

A Christian satire site (by a devout Christian)

http://www.larknews.com/

 

Here is an interesting Christian perspective on Jesus jokes:

http://www.whosoever.org/v8i3/humor.shtml

[sanctus]

Those dancing over the Twin Towers were rejoicing over the success of the attacks on American citizens, not soldiers. Media outlets like Al Jazeera promoted such events over the attacks themselves without even denouncing the attacks. Those images and their promotion were hateful speech but America did not call for terrorist acts against muslims the way muslims are carrying on about some cartoons in some newspapers. This all makes it very hard to segregate those which do not tacitly condone terrorism and those that do.

 

They did worse, they didn't only cry out....

 

I only got to page four so my answer may be out of date already. But by reading that I got quite "disturbed".

 

Tell me C1ay what is the thing the US have done right away after 911? They invaded Afghanistan : a terrorist revenge act selling it as something good because of the bad Talibans (I do not defend the talibans, don't get me wrong... a friend of my parents was a woman's right fighter and got killed by the taliban regime in the eigthies...still my parents weren't crying for revenge), with the main aim of eliminating al-qaida. The main difference between the Us (and the other countries that participated) and the terrorist I see is just a matter of money, the rich can sell it as a better thing than the poor terrorists.

[sanctus]

Now my idea about publishing such cartoons.

I sort of beieve in the old saying my freedom ends where the freedom of the others start. In other words one has to respect the others. This respect is an all levels, that means on material things and conceptual things. For example even if I don't believe in christianity when I go into a church (sight-seeing) and wear a hat I take it off for respect of that place. On the same line of thinking, I would never publish such cartoons becuse it's not respectful to those who believe. For the same reasons I condemn the reaction of some muslims, the usual "eye-for-an-eye"theory. But I understand them very well if they got offended.

In conclusion also the freedom of speech has limits.

 

Tormod you wrote somewhere (arond posts 20) that child pronography(...)and hatred and invitation to hate goes against the freedom of speech. I completely agree, but why do you still say then that the danish paper had the right to publish those articles? Wasn't it intended to be an invitation to hate for the anti-islamist and then turned out also as an invitation to hate of some anti-western-civilization-people (quite ironic by the way)?

[Tormod]

Tormod you wrote somewhere (arond posts 20) that child pronography(...)and hatred and invitation to hate goes against the freedom of speech. I completely agree, but why do you still say then that the danish paper had the right to publish those articles? Wasn't it intended to be an invitation to hate for the anti-islamist and then turned out also as an invitation to hate of some anti-western-civilization-people (quite ironic by the way)?

 

I don't know the original intentions of the editors. I think the intention is questionable. But as I have stated in this thread before, not every questionable intent is illegal. This is one example. It is NOT illegal in Demark, nor in Norway, to publish content that makes fun of religious beliefs. We do, however, have a judiciary system which allows people to go to court if they feel offended by blasphemy.

 

There is a HUGE distinction here. We are talking about cartoons which to me are rather harmless even if they are stupid. This is not child pornography, and it does not ask people to hate.

 

I think a cartoon showing Mohammed with a bomb in his turban is stretching it, but it *is* a valid comment when we know that a lot of militant Muslim groups are waging wars against anything they don't like, in the name of Islam.

 

So, again, I am not defending the content of the cartoons but I am defending the right to publish them, and I am horrified at the apparent bottomless ignorance shown by the Muslim leaders who spur on this conflict.

 

Furious Indonesians cried "Let's slaughter the Danish ambassador" last night, and they attacked the Scandinavian embassy building.

 

There must be a lot of anger brewing up in the Muslim population, and it seems to me that the cartoon issue is just an excuse to vent lots and lots of aggression.

 

And Q, Italy has printed the cartoons too, so you're now officially a target. Sorry mate.