Evolution: Religion or Science?

[Boerseun]

God is the creator. God was always there. The human mind can not comprehend how. Perhaps Adam and Eve could, but that is because they used 100% of their mind. The average person today only uses 4%. Fact.

Heck. Golly. Golly gosh.

 

You're not being serious, are you?

 

I have noooooooooo idea where you get your stats from, but how in the name of Fester McGee do you quantify brain capacity? <fact...?>

[goku]

just so you'll know who i am

i am a born-again baptist and do not think the catholic's are christian.

i remember being told by science teachers or seeing it on science shows, that we don't use all of our brains. maybe scientists have changed their story. has that ever happened before?

 

i agree with dima, god has no beginning.

 

evolution is an idea, or you could say theory. a bad one at that bad bad bad.

no, wait, there is no good or bad in evolution.........sorry

[majordinkydau]

Wasn't sure if I should put this in theology or evolution... Anyway, a popular assertion in the Christian creation vs evolution arguments is that evolution is a religion, and those opposing biblical creation are just clinging to a different religion. I thought rather than diverting a bunch of threads off topic, we might as well start a seperate thread to discuss the issue.

 

As I see it, neither evolution OR biblical creation are religions. Both seek to be scientific models of the universe we live in, although one is undeniably religiously motivated. In that light, evolution is clearly the more viable model as it has real explanatory power. It explains, for instance, we Hawaii sports flightless birds, and it explains the general geological layout of life on this planet. It explains why human DNA is remarkably similar to that of yeast, etc, etc. Also, the specifics behind evolution change as new data is unearthed, leading to punctuated equilibrium, etc, etc. Far from being a weakness open to attack, this is the halmark of a scientific theory.

 

As a scientific model, creationism predicts nothing. It takes new data and figures out (and often increasingly complicated) explanations for how such data fits into the past flood. It also has the drawback of being impossible to adapt, and change. This inability to change forces creation "scientists" to bend data to fit, or discredit that which won't. This leads to abominations like the ICR, whose purpose is nothing more than to hoodwink scientifically illiterate people.

 

Creationists, it seems to me, wish to put evolution (and biblical creationism) on religious terms, for it is in that region where creationism is most credible.

-Will

 

Bend data to fit? The most important piece of evidence in the Scopes Monkey Trial was a pigs jaw that had been filed down to appear humanoid. If it had been a criminal trial it would have been overturned.

[Fishteacher73]

God is the creator. God was always there. The human mind can not comprehend how. Perhaps Adam and Eve could, but that is because they used 100% of their mind. The average person today only uses 4%. Fact.

 

Well acording to here :) http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/tenper.html ) (BTW a University of Washington site) humans use all their brain. So I guess your fact is a bit off.... (only 96% though :) )

[Skippy]

evolution is not a religion because it does nothing good for society.

That would rule out Animism, Satanism and Voodoo as well as others you would most definitely call religions.

 

"if you tell a lie loud enough and long enough the people will believe it" HITLER

A VERY good quote for this thread!

[Csongor]

Do you guys intresting in to chetting about, logically, really strongly scientifically, our belives about the existing Universe, in a context of how we creat it scientifically from the earth, and how this system could or couldn't related to any other existing Universes?

 

 

 

 

If we talk about this, after then if you take it seriously, we will see what we can call god, or what we study in a science of evolution, and so after all we could proof this is all could be true if we want to belive, and if we keep this belives sciences together.

 

 

 

Csongor

[Kichiro]

God is the creator. God was always there. The human mind can not comprehend how. Perhaps Adam and Eve could, but that is because they used 100% of their mind. The average person today only uses 4%. Fact.

 

Ok I'm new here. But I was just reading this and I got a little bit pissed about the ignorance. The human mind can't comprehend that something has always been there? Well true because it's impossible there has to be a beginning. Or it simply doesn't exist in the first place. The we can't understand statement is just to make people follow an "obviously" superior being. How did the universe start when there wasn't a God? Well it just did. If you have no problem with believing that there has always been a God. You need no more proof than human fabricated books and some guy who reads from it to "know" there is a God why would you need proof to show how the universe came into existence. (sorry this isn't all about your comment but just a comment about people who post things like this that I've seen on this forum)

 

Maybe time is indeed flexibel and we'll create it ourselves. Or it's just a natural process.

 

God is just a fictitious entity created by mankind. To serve it's own purpose. Probably just a way of making large groups of people behave. With ignorant things like yeah if you don't believe you'll burn in Hell for all eternity. Why would someone do that? I mean humans are probably exceptionally cruel when it comes to divising methods of punishment. All eternity... I doubt humans even comprehend what that really means ... eternity. A 100 years of torture isn't enough... no a 1000 years maybe... nope not enough either... should we make it a billion years? (1.000.000.000 just to put it in numbers) No not enough either eternity would be good I think. And you know what the strangest thing is. People actually think that's acceptable. Well hey it's his fault he should have believed. >< It's just so sick.

 

That's not justice. Aka not a just God. A just God would have send them back to Earth to have another try before they could enter paradise.

 

The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshipped anything but himself.

 

My view of people who "believe" is just people who are too lazy to seek out explanations for the things. And just become a part of the flok. Aka the mindless herd that just follows a shepherd to whatever he deems is correct. And no that shepherd isn't a God or higher being. It's just the local boy from next door that studied theology and started his carreer in the very prosperous Church where he can feel a bit of power. And also see how easy it actually is to influence people. >< I mean grow up. We aren't in an era anymore where we can't find out what the actual cause is. We no longer need a supreme being to explain unexplainable things. All we need is to use our brains. Pff... even when there is a God I would get so pissed. Yes you are my children but I didn't intend you to hold on to my robe for 2000 years. I think Jesus' s message was: " Hey people bugger off, we've had it. Just go and lead your own life. ps: we've had it with the whining just write it down or something ever heard of a diary?" So people just start using your brain and don't let other people do the thinking for you. Why won't you allow it with trivial things, and then when you have something big you'll let a book decide.

 

Ok sorry if I offended people. But if you can say that we'll go to hell for eternity and experience torture beyond our imagination. It's within my rights to just give you a piece of my mind. Have to do it now. Unless they have some kind of break where I can have a long distance call with Heaven of course. Or maybe there is some guided tour through hell. You know for the people who lived the Good live. Aka did everything the same... sometimes even worse. But always spend their Sunday in a very good way.... Yeah paradise is for Christians/Muslims etc. only. Sure it is. ><

[majordinkydau]

How do you know atoms exist, have you ever seen one? Some respected scientists formed the theroy and it seemed to make sense, we accept it as fact on someone elses word. Atoms and most things of science do not chalange our hearts and demand we change. Many people would judge god for creating hell but concider that hell just might be a place where god chooses to leave people alone who don't want him messing with them while they are alive. Show me all the accomplishments of man and I'll show you a long history of disasters. Everything he makes fails, he cures a disease and a worse one comes along. He makes a miricle drug and finds out it causes more harm than it cures. Man forms wonderful governments and ends up twisting things up so bad that the people are living in hell on earth. Look at every government based on athiesim for their wonderful human rights records. Look at the evidence, man is a sinner and his nature rears its head all through history. If you are offended by god you will do all in your power to ignore evidence that points that way. If you worship the mind of man you'll ignore all its failures. God made man in his image but we love to make our god in our image. Lets stick our god into a little box that we can discribe and control. Faith is ok if it doesn't mean I've got to change myself. I'll accept all the teachings of science without proof but scoff at the claims of religion because of the requirement it lays on my concience. It is easy to point out all the hypocrites and say its not true but every study has its hypocrites. If you want to look at hypocrites, check out your shaving mirror.

[Buffy]

How do you know atoms exist, have you ever seen one? Some respected scientists formed the theroy and it seemed to make sense, we accept it as fact on someone elses word.

Yup. Got pictures of em'. A guy at IBM used a scanning electron microscope and replicated the IBM logo with a dozen or so of them. You can go down the road from where you live to the Stanford Linear Accelerator and see them blast atoms apart: all the little protons and electrons and quarks go flying all over the place, sometimes tracing really wierd spiral arcs.

Atoms and most things of science do not chalange our hearts and demand we change.

Speak for yourself. In fact if anything, its sounds like you don't like science because it challenges your heart. Oh well.

... accept all the teachings of science without proof but scoff at the claims of religion because of the requirement it lays on my concience. It is easy to point out all the hypocrites and say its not true but every study has its hypocrites. If you want to look at hypocrites, check out your shaving mirror.

Its interesting that you use this statement of "accepting without proof," because of course, science does the opposite of that. If you don't believe what the scientist says, the scientific method has assured that enough has been published with the claim to allow you to replicate the experiments yourself and indeed prove *to yourself* that they are true. Your thesis that people who believe in science have no conscience is incredibly offensive and denies what we see around us every day. People go into medicine because they have strong conciences in most cases. While you have your nice little list of man's failures, faith also has its failures, as some dead Christian Scientists could tell you if they had just dropped their faith and gone to the hospital when their appendix' were bursting.

 

If you can drop your intense hatred of science for a moment, you might be able to see that science and faith are quite compatible, and people who have a lot more faith than you appear to have are quite certain of the validity of evolution, cosmology and whatever else you might find to be a distasteful conclusion of science.

 

Cheers,

Buffy

[majordinkydau]

I don't hate science at all, I just don't see science as offering the answers that can make my life work. Science has studied my mental illness and changes its diagnosis every year or two. The answer is found in Frued or maybe Jung as we attempt to disect the human soul and figure out how to solve the problems of a life in chaos. Someone with bipolar issues living a life of mountian top to deep valley emotions and along comes science with the offer to move them to Kansas. A little chemical nutering and crazy people no longer offend the public. Math, engineering, and the pure sciences that are based on repeatable, provable facts are great but the psudo sciences that are built on conjecture, psyciatriatry, evolution and others hoping to whittle mankind down to a simple organic mechanisim fail to earn my respect. If I question their proofs I'm labled as an idiot and called names but no one offers me any observable tests to demonstrate these things they swear happened. What is this thing in the human spirit that defys all of mans neat little theroies. How can damaged merchandise change the world so often as our history shows?

[Buffy]

I don't hate science at all, I just don't see science as offering the answers that can make my life work. Science has studied my mental illness and changes its diagnosis every year or two. ... If I question their proofs I'm labled as an idiot and called names but no one offers me any observable tests to demonstrate these things they swear happened. What is this thing in the human spirit that defys all of mans neat little theroies. How can damaged merchandise change the world so often as our history shows?

Well, you're still throwing the baby out with the bathwater. One thing to make clear, one thing that makes science very different than religion is that it does not claim to have *all* the answers. I've had my own medical problems that have gone through phases of new discoveries (I'm even written up in a study on steroids and nerve repair). I've got friends with bi-polar kids who are running up against the "end of usefulness" for certain treatments as *teenagers* and no kidding, its depressing. Its hard not to lash out sometimes, but realize that you are lashing out and if you can take the good that does come through and do what you can with it, you'll be much better off.

 

Cheers,

Buffy

[majordinkydau]

Why are my qestions called "lashing out". In 1983 while in the Marines I did lash out at the murder of 165 marines in Beruit by the USMC. They told me to shut up and I answered with a threat to blow them up, I'd just finished EOD training. This got me escorted to the gate and handed walking papers, ending my carear as a Marine. My name is now on FBI lists as a psycotic and I used to watch them park at the top of my driveway and eat donuts while searching for the Unibomber in the 90's. This rage at our betrayal by the Corps ate at me for decades. Doctors gave me drugs to deal with depression and anger and ended up taking all my emotions away. I watched my brother die of cancer and felt nothing, like watching a soap opera. Science thought it had achieved something by keeping me from flipping out and causing mayhem. God offered to heal my heart and deal with the root. Today I am using medication only as sleep aids and am no longer having bouts of road rage. Do you want to look at proof that there is something science refuses to even look at. There is a spiritual realm that most scientist swear does not exist because they cannot put it into a neat little box. Every time I mention this someone from these forums changes the subject or throws insults at me. Lets burn some books and crush ideologies that differ from ours because we know the answers. If evolution is so clearly provable why does it feel threatened by religious fanatics with their mythologies. If you think 2+2= 5 I don't need feel threatened. When you say I don't have the right to believe 2+2=4 because it conflicts with your beliefs then I feel the threat. The bill of rights garentees the freedom of religion but we have now have interpeted it to mean freedom from religion.

[Csongor]

Dear everyone! Just a really simple theoretical question: If I do an independent Universe with my collages together, after then We are the GOD's or we create one?

 

 

 

Csongor

[majordinkydau]

Someone asks a question and gets labled as narrow minded or heritical. for many centuries people in power held the puplic under their power and even killed those who dared question them. As I have asked some questions on science forums I've repeatedly gotten accused of being unscientific. It is my belief that the most important aspect of sciece is to ask questions. When we fear the possible answer might offend us and put limits on what answers we will accept. If the best answer to questions is ridicule I begin to suspect the strength of the arguments. "My pencils out last their erasers" Tolstoy

[Buffy]

Someone asks a question and gets labled as narrow minded or heritical. for many centuries people in power held the puplic under their power and even killed those who dared question them.

I'd like you to read this quote of yours very carefully:

How do you know atoms exist, have you ever seen one? Some respected scientists formed the theroy and it seemed to make sense, we accept it as fact on someone elses word....accept all the teachings of science without proof but scoff at the claims of religion because of the requirement it lays on my concience.

The first sentance is arguably a question, however the sentances that follow turns this question into a rhetorical question: that means that you don't expect anyone to answer it, you are simply holding the "obvious" answer up to riducule. Then when others do answer it, you claim to be unfairly attacked. Think about this: is this an effective mechanism for convincing people of the power of your opinions? Does it make sense? I think you'll (unfortunately) see occasional examples on this board of the same sort of style but attacking the religious world view: does it convince you?

 

Now at the same time, I understand your anger at the medical establishment which operates quite often by presenting an air of unquestionable authority, and in some cases fails to deliver, especially for conditions that are little understood like bi-polar disorders. It seems clear to me that part of what has worked for you is in fact related to your focusing your anger against this medical establishment and to a broader extent, science as a whole, and in combination with this, your strong faith has given you something that does not only hold out hope, but in fact seems to work. I think that's a *good* thing. Its one of those things that faith does *really* well. Do not give it up and do not let us "oppressive obstructionist science idiots" talk you out of it.

 

However, realize that the words and rhetorical approach you are using are not effective, and your use of questions as a bludgeon are fairly transparent: you will not be taken seriously by saying "I'm only asking questions" when every question is accompanied by a scoffing attitude of superiority, the same one you accuse others of.

 

Cheers,

Buffy

[Dundasbro]

What I don't understand is the fact that whenever someone brings up the subject of evolution, a Christian will become indignant and say that the fact that we are related to monkeys makes them feel "dehumanized". Never mind the fact that the bible says we we're created from dirt... :lol:

 

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www.evilbible.com

[Southtown]

God is just a fictitious entity created by mankind. To serve it's own purpose. Probably just a way of making large groups of people behave.

You realize that is your conjecture, yes?

 

With ignorant things like yeah if you don't believe you'll burn in Hell for all eternity. Why would someone do that? I mean humans are probably exceptionally cruel when it comes to divising methods of punishment.

To this notion, I have posted before. Please forgive me for quoting myself, but I'm weary of the misconception that the bible teaches perpetual barbequing and also the continued use of scriptural misconceptions as "strawman" arguments.

 

For one, the Bible says several times that for those who goes to hell, it's for all eternity.

I once thought that way until I was convinced otherwise through scripture. Hmmm, lemme dig up some quotes. Isaiah 5:24; Obadiah 1:17-18; Malachi 4:1-3; Matthew 10:28; 2 Peter 2:12 Also, you have to admit that when you first considered eternal fire, you tripped over the idea of a loving God administering it. I know I did when I was young, and most non-believers will admit it's the reason they don't believe. It's just not consistent: "a provident God has to let them suffer forever", "a loving God designed this punishment." I eventually just grew to accept it by faith. Now I know that God is provident, and doesn't have to allow eternal torment. By contrast, a once-and-for-all destruction by fire would be considered merciful and make more sense.

 

This false doctrine came through mingling with Greek mythology, the flesh dies but the soul is immortal. Therefore, those who are not "of God" suffer ceaselessly in the afterlife. But scripture maintains that men are not immortal by nature, but that were are made that way at the transformation. Romans 2:7; 1 Corinthians 15:53-54; 1 Timothy 6:13-16; 2 Timothy 1:10