Evolution: Religion or Science?

[Hawkens]

I have a great deal against that minority of Christians who follow a literal interpretation of the Bible, with all that entails.

Try the majority of Christians.

 

I had the percentages around here somewhere. I'll post them when I'm not behind on the delivery of some programs I have due for work. I'd guess but then i'd be just like those who take macroevolution as fact. :)

 

Oh and the Ammonites only show variations within that kind of animal. Which only shows microevolution. I do not contest that at all.

[Skippy]

(I'm also moderately offended by sloppy spelling: it makes life difficult for those who have English as a second language.)

Did you mean like this:

Yesterday 07:05 AM

I mean really :) ....Your bigoted, narrow-minded, self delusional vision of the world is capable of corrupting impressionable young minds, looking for certainty where there is, instead, the glory of steadily unravelliing uncertainty.

Kind of hard to talk with your foot in your mouth, No?

[Hawkens]

To add some more light on the false statement made that a minority of Christians believing in the 6 Day Creation...

 

This is just one poll done. I'll link the article.

 

Most Americans take Bible stories literally

 

The poll found that 75 percent of Protestants believed in the story of creation, 79 percent in the Red Sea account and 73 percent in Noah and the ark.

Among evangelical Protestants, those figures were 87 percent, 91 percent and 87 percent, respectively. Among Catholics, they were 51 percent, 50 percent and 44 percent.

The stories still proved somewhat compelling among those who had "no religion." A quarter said they believed in Creation, almost a third said Moses parted the Red Sea, and 29 percent believe in Noah.

 

Shame on the Catholics.

[C1ay]

Here's another nudge to get things back on topic.

[Hawkens]

Here's another nudge to get things back on topic.

Now we can't counter fasle statements?

 

Hit my rep all you want but I wasn't about to let that lie go unchallenged.

[Eclogite]

In replying to Harzburgites claim that a minority of christians interpret the bible literally you said

Try the majority of Christians..

I suspect you are form the US and it may be true there. It is most certainly not the case in the UK, western Europe or Russia, or South East Asia, in my experience. I await with interest your data to overturn my current world view.

Sorry, I missed your post #224. However, as I suspected, you are basing your figures on the US. That's the same country where over 25% IIRC of the population believe in alien abduction. As many as 10% believe they or a close friend or acquaintance have been abducted! The US, regretably, is heading for third world status in terms of education and intellectual freedoms. That will sit well with those fundamentalist christians who clearly see an open education as unecessary, and indeed quite possibly evil. Excuse me while I go and vomit.

[IrishEyes]

I suspect you are form the US and it may be true there. It is most certainly not the case in the UK, western Europe or Russia, or South East Asia, in my experience. I await with interest your data to overturn my current world view.

I await your data that contradicts these figures. Your 'experience' is little more than anecdotal. Unless you have figures to back them, personal experience is not the same as data.

 

The US, regretably, is heading for third world status in terms of education and intellectual freedoms. That will sit well with those fundamentalist christians who clearly see an open education as unecessary, and indeed quite possibly evil. Excuse me while I go and vomit.

Wow. Thanks so much for that vote of confidence. Please explain, in a new thread, exactly what you meant by this statement. I'd love the chance to discuss the FCs that 'clearly see an "open education" as ... evil'.

But again, start a new thread. Try to keep this one on topic.

And wipe off your chin. Vomit is so unbecoming. :circle:

[Hawkens]

I suspect you are form the US and it may be true there. It is most certainly not the case in the UK, western Europe or Russia, or South East Asia, in my experience. I await with interest your data to overturn my current world view.

This is all off topic like C1ay said.

 

Good luck finding a poll for other countries on anything. However, if I use the same "guessing" that Evolutionists use, then I would say those numbers would be the same or even higher percentages than compared to the US.

 

The rest of your post is Incoherent Babble. :circle:

[IrishEyes]

I have nothing against God. I have nothing against Christianity. I have a great deal against that minority of Christians who follow a literal interpretation of the Bible, with all that entails.

I'm not sure I understand. You have nothing against God, or Christianity. It's just the Christians that take what they believe is the very Word of God to be literal that you have 'a great deal against'? What is the difference? If you don't like the people that practice the religion, how can you say you have nothing against the religion? If the people that follow Christianity didn't follow it so cloesly, they'd be ok? :circle:

 

(I'm also moderately offended by sloppy spelling: it makes life difficult for those who have English as a second language.)

Sloppy spelling makes life difficult for those who have English as a second language? Get off your high horse. This forum is FULL of people that use English as a second language, and there are spelling errors all over the place. We expect that. And those of us that can not accept it should really look for a different forum. I'm very tired of people getting picked on for their spelling and grammar. As was explained to me, most of the people here are at least proficient in more than two languages. To expect them to have perfect spelling and grammar in a language that is not their own is ridiculous. To expect everyone to have the same level of proficiency, regardless of their native tongue, is nothing less than elitist.

[Harzburgite]

Interesting that I should feel I am being attacked, by no less than a senior admin with many green squares.

Sloppy spelling makes life difficult for those who have English as a second language? Get off your high horse.

Well, excuse me for caring. Are you actually defending sloppy spelling and grammar? You actually wish to encourage it? And how dare you accuse me of being on 'a high horse'. She dares, I dares. Note how you can understand what I'm saying, despite the grammer. :circle:

Sloppy spelling and grammar denote unclear thinking or a disinterest in what is being discussed. The adjective sloppy has a specific connotation, which as an educated native English speaker I would believe you are well aware of. It expresses a carelessness based not on lack of knowledge, but lack of attention. A person comparatively unskilled in the use of English cannot be guilty of sloppy spelling or grammar because they may know barely enough to be careless with. As their skill level grows the opportunities for sloppiness increase, but it is my pleasant experience that few fall victim to it.

The guilty parties are typically native English speakers who seem indifferent to the difficulties their carelessness creates for those struggling in a foreign language. As nice as all those syllables look, an overuse of vocabulary can seem just as vulgar as rampant |_337 $|^E/|<. A degree of tolerance would be appreciated; just because you had the lovely chance to meet all those slanging teenagers. Proper dictation has it's place, but criticisum is generally best made in a constructive manner.

And when I condemn this thoughtlessness I am taken to task for being on my high horse and being elitist. Well, get used to it Ms Irish, when I think it is worthy of mention I shall mention it. We expect you to, but please be a little less ignorant in the manner that you present it. You can hide more guns in roses than piles of maneure.

I would like to applaud Skippy's amusing identification of my own mistyping of unraveliiing. This is actually an interesting example of what I mean by care and attention. I have a faulty key board which misses letters and sometimes double strikes them. In brackets is what I had to go through, letter by letter, correcting, to get to this paragraph here. To do less would be decidedly rude, in my opinion. I am simply asking for those with functioning keyboards and a good grasp of English to make a little effort in that regard. [Thhis iis actuallly and iinterestingg example ooff whhat I mean byy care and attention. II ave a flltty key booard whhiichh misses lettrs and sootiimss ddobl striikes thhem. In brackets iis whhat I hhad to go trooghh ltterr by lleteer coorrectiing to geet to thhiiss parragraphh hre. To doo lss wouould bee deciiedly rude, iin my oiinion. I amn simplly askiingg foor tose wiithth funconng keyboards and an a goodd grasp oof nglliishh make a iittle ffort in thhatt regard.] Nice to know, is it legible? good. I guarentee you I make mistakes in my french grammer, and my english grammer because they run together inside my mind. We all have quirks, why must a strict level of conformity be placed on it?

I am, as you are well aware, new to these forums. I have engaged in debates in several threads and, what I consider far more interesting and important, attempted to provide information where I believe I am competent to do so. In short, it is my aim to be a productive member of this forum. I do not expect to be berated by an admin for trying to raise standards and make life easier for everone. If you genuinely feel my attitude is unacceptable you have a simple remedy. And we don't appreciate temper-tantrums. Grow up.

[MortenS]

I await your data that contradicts these figures. Your 'experience' is little more than anecdotal. Unless you have figures to back them, personal experience is not the same as data.

 

I do not have data for the whole western Europe, but here are some data for Norway (a rather secular country compared to US)

The following question get asked every 5 years (in a larger questionaire covering a lot of different topics) to a representative sample of Norways population.

 

I have the results from 2002:

 

Question:

Do you believe that there has been an evolution from lower forms of organisms to higher forms of organisms over long time periods in earths history?

Yes: 70%

No: 11%

Do not know: 19%

 

If the question gets asked a bit more narrowly, the results change a bit:

Is it you opinion that humans are part of the same evolution and that apes and humans have evolved over long periods of time from common ancestors that now are extinct?

 

Yes: 66%

No: 20%

Do not know: 14%

 

There is a of bit difference between men and women on the answers on the last question:

71% of the men answered yes, and 62% of the women answered yes.

 

In 1969, when the questions first started to be asked, the results on the second question was 56% yes for men and 45% yes for women.

 

Maybe some other countries have similar polls?

[Hawkens]

And this is among Christians only?

 

If it is....your (if not your country...that) country is indeed learning the wrong stuff in church.

[IrishEyes]

No, I think the questions get asked to a random sampling of Norwegians. I seem to recall Tormod saying something about this before.

And thank you, MortenS, for providing that info. I hope that others have similar data to post from their countries as well.

[C1ay]

Sloppy spelling and grammar denote unclear thinking or a disinterest in what is being discussed.

Not really. Some of us like you and I are native american speakers that nitpick the spelling in our own posts. OTOH, I've seen quite a few people in the forums jump on other members without realizing they were struggling just to write "see spot run". This board has a lot of international participation coupled with a lot of younger members that won't care as much about detail as you or I for several years to come. At least they're here trying to learn something even if they're spelling or grammar is less than perfect. I see no need to make them feel unwelcome for such trivial transgressions. If their spelling and grammar bugs you that much then use the ignore function and you won't see their posts.

 

BTW, maybe you can find an affordable keyboard here.

[Dark Mind]

Nice, C1ay.

 

By the way, Harzburgite, I'm 16 and I believe that my spelling and grammar is far exceeding of my peers with the same education. I didn't get this way by just sitting in class and attempting to learn everything through osmosis though. I credit my amazing writing skillz (:circle:) to an undying appreciation of the written language, and understanding that without it we wouldn't be able to intellectually progress as quickly as we have been. I try to do my best to communicate with others because I know that when I communicate well I'm remembered equally as well. There are many "kids" that are an exclusion to

This board has a lot of international participation coupled with a lot of younger members that won't care as much about detail as you or I for several years to come. At least they're here trying to learn something even if they're spelling or grammar is less than perfect.

And I enjoy thinking of myself as one of them.

 

Thank you very much, and good day sir. :Crunk:

[eMTee]

In replying to Harzburgites claim that a minority of christians interpret the bible literally you said

I suspect you are form the US and it may be true there. It is most certainly not the case in the UK, western Europe or Russia, or South East Asia, in my experience. I await with interest your data to overturn my current world view.

Sorry, I missed your post #224. However, as I suspected, you are basing your figures on the US. That's the same country where over 25% IIRC of the population believe in alien abduction. As many as 10% believe they or a close friend or acquaintance have been abducted! The US, regretably, is heading for third world status in terms of education and intellectual freedoms. That will sit well with those fundamentalist christians who clearly see an open education as unecessary, and indeed quite possibly evil. Excuse me while I go and vomit.

 

I see exactly what you are saying, education is going down along side society. But I think it's the lack of God in society and the teaching of no absolutes that is doing the damage.

 

That will sit well with those fundamentalist christians who clearly see an open education as unecessary, and indeed quite possibly evil. Excuse me while I go and vomit.

I don't know what you mean by this. A moral nation is a strong nation, and the lack of teaching morals is disturbing, without teaching children that there is a moral God, teaching morals is pointless. and America is going down the toilet

 

When you say taking the Bible literaly or unliterately what do you mean by that?

[Skippy]

The US, regretably, is heading for third world status in terms of education and intellectual freedoms. That will sit well with those fundamentalist christians who clearly see an open education as unecessary, and indeed quite possibly evil. Excuse me while I go and vomit.

Excuse me!! The U.S. was always at the top of the world in education before "Scopes" and was still very high until Madeline Murray O'Hare came along. It is not the inclusion of religious teaching which has caused a decline in education, that connection cannot be made. (I could go into how political correctness, moral relativism, outcome-based education, and muticulturalism have screwed up our educational system, but that is off topic).

 

The part that really gets me about your comment is the absurdity of claiming that evolutionists want "intellectual freedoms." Case in point: Kansas. There the state board of education wanted to put a disclaimer in science textbooks which stated that "Evolution is still a theory," and who went nuts but the "open-minded, freedom loving evolutionists."

 

No, just as often as Bible believers have complained about the exclusion of Creationism even being mentioned in a discussion about the origin of life, someone on the evolution only side of the issue has shouted even louder and kept it out of the classroom. Barry Lynn and Norman Lear make their living off of the debate now.