Asperger's Syndrome

[Michaelangelica]

Working with autism

 

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People with autism struggle to find work suited to their personality and skills.

 

So Danish businessman Thorkil Sonne decided to set up a company tailored to their needs.

 

He is the founder of a software testing company where the majority of the staff have Asperger's Syndrome, a mild form of autism.

Anyone who thinks they have "different" thought processes should listen to this amazing programme.

Working with autism - Life Matters - 31 August 2009

Like most "diseases' it seems we create these socially; especially "mental illness"

More here

Entrepreneur Thorkil Sonne on what you can learn from employees with autism

A Conversation with Thorkil Sonne

http://www.apac09.org/files/Thorkil-SonneARTICLE-Sept-08.pdf

Two Harvard Business Reveiw articles on this:-

http://www.mitpressjournals.org/action/doSearch?searchText=Specialisterne&cookieSet=1

 

Also another Asperger's 'star'.

Bram Cohen: Creator of BitTorrent

Wrong Planet - Articles

[lemit]

I don't have the raw numbers, but my score was 14, another male strongly in the control group. Maybe it's the post-polio, since Pyrotex and I got the same score.

 

I find very disturbing the conversation about how someone with Asperger's or even Autism can be fixed, corrected, cured, or dealt with in any way that would suggest the person is defective. If we use the standard requirement for intervention--the individual is suffering or is likely to cause harm to him/herself or others--people with Asperger's just don't fit. I guess that's another way they don't fit in.

 

Why can't we see differences in ordering and prioritizing information as an acceptable human variation, probably no more sinister than being left-handed, which now seems to be a qualification to be president but not that long ago in human history was considered reason to be burned at the stake? We understand--at least some of us do--that race, color, religious affiliation, disability, gender, and gender preference can not be "cured" and should not be. Why should we feel that people who view the world differently, who collect information differently, who socialize differently, should be "cured" as long as they do not fit the intervention requirements.

 

An acquaintance of mine is mildly Asperger's; his son is more definitively so. A year ago, a group of malicious Junior High classmates accused the son of planning to blow up the school. (I'm changing some of the details of this story.) The school believed the malicious students, despite their reputation, because my friend's son showed tendencies toward Asperger's. The trauma of the months-long investigation, including forced psychoanalysis and family counseling which eventually showed the family to be normal and healthy, now threatens to destroy the family.

 

(It occurs to me that a sociopath with a borderline personality would be given better treatment in our current thinking than most of the best minds in history.)

 

The way each of our minds works should by logic be as individual as the tips of our fingers. To say that an individual who does not suffer and poses no threat to him- or herself needs help of any kind just because the individual collects and organizes information differently from a control group is a strange xenophobia to preserve. Maybe societies need something to fear, something to denigrate in order to feel normal and healthy. Maybe humans need that pastiche more than we need the reality.

 

--lemit

 

p.s. I may be asking too much. It's been less than 50 years since the publication of Black Like Me, in which a reporter wearing blackface pretended to be black so he could report to the world what that experience was like. How many implications are there in that premise? I have done something with that book that I normally abhor: I have not read it myself but I encourage other people not to read it. I think sometimes you can tell a book by its cover.

[Donk]

I find very disturbing the conversation about how someone with Asperger's or even Autism can be fixed, corrected, cured, or dealt with in any way that would suggest the person is defective. If we use the standard requirement for intervention--the individual is suffering or is likely to cause harm to him/herself or others--people with Asperger's just don't fit. I guess that's another way they don't fit in.

 

Why can't we see differences in ordering and prioritizing information as an acceptable human variation, probably no more sinister than being left-handed, which now seems to be a qualification to be president but not that long ago in human history was considered reason to be burned at the stake? We understand--at least some of us do--that race, color, religious affiliation, disability, gender, and gender preference can not be "cured" and should not be. Why should we feel that people who view the world differently, who collect information differently, who socialize differently, should be "cured" as long as they do not fit the intervention requirements.

Aspergers isn't a "one-size-fits-all" diagnosis. That's what Michaelangelica was saying in the original post. We're talking about a spectrum of differences from the norm. You're quite right in that we make more of those differences than we should, but I don't see a problem in intervention to try to move the child along the spectrum towards Normal.

 

I've known a couple of Aspergers boys. Both became very depressed when puberty hit, and stayed that way. Girls didn't want to know, and it hurt, badly. If a parent can improve the child's social skills, preventing severe hurt further up the road, why not?

[Michaelangelica]

It seems that people with Aspergers and Autism have a lot to contrinute and a lot to teach us.

IMHO we should rejoice in 'cognitive difference' and create environments where these people can shine and enhance their skills.

[TheBigDog]

It seems that people with Aspergers and Autism have a lot to contrinute and a lot to teach us.

IMHO we should rejoice in 'cognitive difference' and create environments where these people can shine and enhance their skills.

When the person in question is incapable of socializing and descends into depression that would be cured by what you and I would consider the most rudimentary social skills then it is time to help that person. It is difficult looking at your child and wondering it he will ever live on his own, and who will take care of him when you die. It there is a way to help him make that much of a leap toward 'normal' then I say go for it.

 

My 12 year old has been diagnosed as either a high functioning autistic or having Asperger's. He first got this diagnosis at the age of three. No matter how many examinations he goes through the doctors cannot agree. So much of it depends on how Bryan feels the day of the diagnosis. If he feels like cooperating they find hardly anything wrong with him. If he feels like not cooperating then he gets very dark prognosis from the doctors. The day to day, hour to hour changes in how he is evaluated make it difficult to put your finger on it. The one thing that is consistent with him is that his social skills are largely mimicry, not understood or natural. If autism were discovered to be 50% dietary, I would change his diet. It if were discovered to 50% activity driven, I would change his activities. The creative benefits of autism (if any) do not outweigh the social burdens. All children learn social skills from their families. They are crucial for thriving in society. NOBODY would teach a kids autistic social skills in hopes of reaping some abstract by product from it.

 

The retro-diagnosis of so many famous people as having Asperger's is utter hogwash. It was first theorized in the 40's and only became a recognized condition in 1994. Suddenly it seems to be all the rage to diagnose kids as having Aspergers. To me in so many cases it is just another way of excusing those who don't want to work. I could have been diagnosed with Aspergers as a kid, or I could have been diagnosed as lazy, easily bored, and stubborn; the symptoms are remarkably similar.

 

Bill

[pamela]

It is difficult looking at your child and wondering it he will ever live on his own, and who will take care of him when you die.

it is extremely important not to project into the future, prepare yes, project no.We can only do what we can today in order to ensure our children wil grow and develop at their special pace.

 

My 12 year old has been diagnosed as either a high functioning autistic or having Asperger's. He first got this diagnosis at the age of three. No matter how many examinations he goes through the doctors cannot agree.

you know bill, i dislike labels and often disagree with what has been deemed by doctors.Yeah my son was diagnosed as borderline autistic at the same age. And?..............

well, when he wouldnt make eye contact with me, i worked even harder at getting his attention.Use of silly songs and antics worked.I have his undivided attention now at 13 as well those he comes in contact with. Indeed he has become quite engaging and sociable beyond that which i could have ever imagined

So much of it depends on how Bryan feels the day of the diagnosis. If he feels like cooperating they find hardly anything wrong with him. If he feels like not cooperating then he gets very dark prognosis from the doctors. The day to day, hour to hour changes in how he is evaluated make it difficult to put your finger on it. The one thing that is consistent with him is that his social skills are largely mimicry, not understood or natural

.

catch me in a bad mood and i may behave the same.I wonder what he is thinking? could be just sick of the whole thing you know, will he talk to you about it on any level? i am curious about the not understood and unnatural, can you expound a little bit?

If autism were discovered to be 50% dietary, I would change his diet. It if were discovered to 50% activity driven, I would change his activities

. give a child some jelly beans laden with red #5 and blue lake, and lunch meat with sodium nitrate and you will have behaviour issues.I am not sure of any extensive research on this, but in my own experience, both autism and intermittant explosive disorder react adversely to these food additives.

The creative benefits of autism (if any) do not outweigh the social burdens. All children learn social skills from their families. They are crucial for thriving in society. NOBODY would teach a kids autistic social skills in hopes of reaping some abstract by product from it.

sometimes it takes a creative parent to step outside the bounds and thought of normality, to develop ways in order to reach and teach their child

 

Suddenly it seems to be all the rage to diagnose kids as having Aspergers. To me in so many cases it is just another way of excusing those who don't want to work. I could have been diagnosed with Aspergers as a kid, or I could have been diagnosed as lazy, easily bored, and stubborn; the symptoms are remarkably similar.

it seems to me the medical profession has indeed gone overboard in this area.

[lemit]

I hope I made it plain that all people who need treatment should get treatment, regardless of their diagnosis. The diagnosis is important if treatment fails because the underlying condition is missed. If treatment succeeds, who cares what the diagnosis is?

 

It's in the middle ground that the problem lies, in deciding whether what is not normal is also not dangerous to anyone. Perhaps I'm also sensitive to the problems associated with overdiagnosis of "abnormal" behavior because I've heard and read so much about the local case of Tim Masters Peggy Hettrick murder case - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, in which behavior perhaps a little frightening in a teenager but not indicative of a homicidal personality was concluded to be so. An innocent man spent 10 years in prison for cartoons similar to those made by many pubescent boys.

 

I think it's important to give kids a chance to grow up, and a lot of love and support while they're doing it. We seem to have developed systems for diagnosis and treatment that we are now determined to use whether they are needed or not.

 

--lemit

[paigetheoracle]

As of this week I have been as near as dammit officially assessed as having Asperger's to some degree (No officially posting because both my parents, aunts, uncles and probably family doctor are all dead and for it to be official, history from birth to three has to be known).

 

The appointment was only supposed to be one hour but as my wife says I either say nothing or end up with verbal diarrhoea.

 

Anyway that's me out of here for a while as I've got my gardening and painting orders for the summer!

[CraigD]

As of this week I have been as near as dammit officially assessed as having Asperger's to some degree ...

In my experience, nearly everyone who's encountered a "diagnostician" who's ever heard of Asperger's syndrome has been observed to meet some of the criteria for it or other autistic spectrum disorders, so one should be diligently skeptical of a diagnosis of "having Asperger's to some degree".

 

So as not to miss out on the amateur psych experience of diagnosing someone over the internet, here's a pretty standard AS/HFA test:

 

Consider the following 4 photos of the same woman:

Match each of the images,

1. ____
2. ____
3. ____
4. ____

With one of the descriptions

1. Happy
2. Sad
3. Angry
4. Afraid

 

If you can perform this test accurately and easily, you almost certainly don't meet the diagnostic criteria for AS or another ASD.

 

(Image fair use rearrangement and labeling of image from American Psychological Association (APA))

[paigetheoracle]

In my experience, nearly everyone who's encountered a "diagnostician" who's ever heard of Asperger's syndrome has been observed to meet some of the criteria for it or other autistic spectrum disorders, so one should be diligently skeptical of a diagnosis of "having Asperger's to some degree".

 

So as not to miss out on the amateur psych experience of diagnosing someone over the internet, here's a pretty standard AS/HFA test:

 

Consider the following 3 photos of the same woman:

Match each of the images,

1. ____
2. ____
3. ____
4. ____

With one of the descriptions

1. Happy
2. Sad
3. Angry
4. Afraid

 

If you can perform this test accurately and easily, you almost certainly don't meet the diagnostic criteria for AS or another ASD.

 

(Image fair use rearrangement and labeling of image from American Psychological Association (APA))

 

Interesting as I got three out of the four almost immediately but thought the fourth was startled, eventually and wasn't sure about the anger for a start either. What I am now is not as marked as it was, thanks to my partner, according to what people who knew me before said about my previous behaviour/ character. The psychologist doing the assessment said much the same thing as you adding the proviso that she couldn't make it official because it needed confirmation of early development from birth to three (Both parents dead as probably is the family doctor - no aunts and uncles alive either except for possibly one, who may be in London somewhere).

[Boerseun]

I took a few of these tests to see what the whole thing was about.

 

The one test said I'm a raging Aspergee with a score of 36 (where anything above 32 is bona-fide AS). The second test said I've a score of 15% (where anything below 50% is considered normal - above 50% you start approaching full-blown AS status, which, of course, is 100%. According to this test, I'm the most awesomely socially adept sexual predator in the history of mankind and should expect to be raped by the first hot chick to cross my path at any time.

 

Point is, the tests are crap. And even if they weren't, what are you testing for, in any case?

 

Human reactions to all kind of situations vary from the one extreme to the other. Human social skills vary from the one extreme to the other. And everything inside the wide range of human reactions and skills, likes and dislikes, fears and phobias, etc., is normal. If you want to give a name to some far-off corner of human nature and call it "Asperger's Syndrome", so be it. I'm calling the corner I'm inhabiting George.

[CraigD]

Interesting as I got three out of the four almost immediately but thought the fourth was startled, eventually and wasn't sure about the anger for a start either.

If you could match the words to the pictures, you pass the test. It’s a test of unconscious perception, not word meaning nuances (eg: startled vs. afraid).

 

It’s also not, in this simple a form, a sure means of ruling out autism spectrum or other PPDs, because high-functioning autistics can learn to consciously examine faces for obvious emotional clue states. This can be compensated for by showing the images and requiring an response very quickly, and by using many images, including ones in which the emotion evidenced is subtle and ambiguous.

I took a few of these tests to see what the whole thing was about.

 

The one test said I'm a raging Aspergee with a score of 36 (where anything above 32 is bona-fide AS). ...

What tests did you take? Were these test self administered questionnaires, administered by a non-clinician, of by a clinician (Psychologist, MD, etc.)?

 

The primary value of self or non-clinician-administered tests – those that are well designed, which many are not – is, I think, educational. Ideally, they give the curious and/or concerned practical information about psychology and available psychological services. In some cases, they provide a reality check/self second opinion as a safeguard against poor diagnoses by unqualified clinicians. In most places, any MD is allowed perform psychiatry, regardless of their education or certification in the specialty, which can result in people following treatment plans – especially ones involving psychotherapeutic drugs – that harm them.

 

Self-administered psych tests can be valuable in education a patient so that they can better communicate with a bona-fide healthcare provider. They should by no means be considered real and correct diagnostic procedures.

Point is, the tests are crap. ...

While I agree some tests, and the context in which they’re presented, are crap, I don’t think all are.

 

As important as the test itself is how will the material surrounding it states its limitations, and how correctly it’s administered – the test’s context.

... And even if they weren't, what are you testing for, in any case?

In the case of autisms spectrum disorders, the expert consensus is what’s being tested for is a complex but very distinct collection of abnormalities of the brain’s anatomy and physiology. Although the precise details remains incompletely understood, in general, they involve excesses of the white matter cells that connect the brain across non-microscopic distances.

 

There’s strong evidence that ASD is strongly genetic – if you have an identical twin with an ASD, the probability is 90% that you will have an ASD – and also that the brain malformation that causes it occurs early (in the first 2 months after conception) of gestation, despite the fact that it may not become apparent in a child’s behavior until they are over 2 years old.

 

In most cases, autism leads to profound disability. About 70% of people with AS disorders are mentally retarded – have general IQ less than 70 (100 being average, 15 the standard deviation) – and will never be able to function independently. Many have IQ less than 50, and will require lifetime supervised care, never developing much expressive spoken language or the ability to read or write.

 

Because high-function autistics (Aspys are HFAs) such as Temple Grandin are so interesting, and in many cases heroically inspiring, I believe many people incorrectly believe most people with ASDs are high-function – that the disorder nearly always has a “plus side”. Sadly, this is not true.

If you want to give a name to some far-off corner of human nature and call it "Asperger's Syndrome", so be it. I'm calling the corner I'm inhabiting George.

Having friends, family, and a penchant for posting (not to mention an awesomely high reputation) at hypograpy, I’m pretty sure no credible clinician would diagnose you with an ASD. Like most thoughtful people, you likely (and I certainly) share some behavioral traits with various HFAs. Without some exotic and expensive brain imaging and genetic testing, it’s practically impossible to determine if these unusual traits are due to some atypical brain anatomy, or are learned. Though many of us are curious, there’s little practical value to knowing this.

 

:( PS: Did you have any trouble with my 4-picture test, George?

[Boerseun]

I had no problems with the photos you pasted. They were quite obvious and quite clear. The tests I took were some of the online tests for which shortcuts were pasted in this thread by some of our members. I also did a search for a few others, and will find the links if you're interested.

 

My point is that online testing for stuff is dangerous and self-diagnosis usually ensures that you, as a self-styled doctor, invariably end up having a fool for a patient.

[Michaelangelica]

My practical, down-to-earth, child psychologist (she has ten kids), cousin says "All men are aspergic to some degree".