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Its good to be with him on the side that they need to progress with extreme caution. However, would you say that you are with him to the degree that these devices should be banned from creation and use? If so, what suggestions would you have to prevent violent riots like those expereinced in Paris this past year?

 

The abuse problem will exist no matter what method you use. Perhaps for a time, a higher degree of abuse will exist for non-lethal means, but the severity of the consequence of the abuse is also much lower. Thus the abuse of a side arm that ends in death, is in my opinion a much worse abuse than say 50 misuses of a device that simply causes a mild sunburn for a couple of days.

 

Furthermore, what you have demonastrated with your example of Houston, and what was demonstrated earlier with the berkley example, both demonstrate that investigations into the misuse are quickly come upon. As long as investigations occur, then the chance of misuse turning to the degree of Boer's thoughts is low to non-existent. It is when no investigation occurs that we will have to worry.

 

Thus my earlier point that Boer's thoughts suggest a dictatorial government and not a democratic one will ensue if these weapons go into production.

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"People should not fear their government. A government should fear it's people."   V   "When the people fear the government you have tyranny...when the government fears the people you have liberty." -

I don't like this, at all.   The intent of the American militia, and the right of the public to bear arms, is to keep the government in check. The government must always know that it can only piss the

If these weapons are used anywhere, they will eventually be used against "fellow Americans" too ! And as for the definition of "crowd of violent revolutionaries", I suggest you try and find a copy of

...For me, it's a deeper issue regarding 1) why the populace must rise up to have their voices heard, and 2) How to gauge the appropriateness of the steps taken by the powers that be when they try to stop those uprisings.....
Well said.

 

It is inevitable that sooner or later, we will have local, regional, national leaders who desparately need adult supervision, who cannot relate to the public angst, who demonize those that disagree as "enemies" of society, or as poor "brainwashed" victims of the extremists on one side or t'other. This process (in the leadership) undermines compassion, and short-circuits the ability to develop an appropriate strategy.

 

We have had leaders like this many times before. But their response to an uprising was limited by lack of technology and by tradition. Now that they have the technology to utterly force dispersal of demonstrations (at a low, reasonable cost), all that will keep them from doing something stupid is tradition. And that wears awfully thin when times get tough.

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Well said.

 

It is inevitable that sooner or later, we will have local, regional, national leaders who desparately need adult supervision, who cannot relate to the public angst, who demonize those that disagree as "enemies" of society, or as poor "brainwashed" victims of the extremists on one side or t'other. This process (in the leadership) undermines compassion, and short-circuits the ability to develop an appropriate strategy.

 

We have had leaders like this many times before. But their response to an uprising was limited by lack of technology and by tradition. Now that they have the technology to utterly force dispersal of demonstrations (at a low, reasonable cost), all that will keep them from doing something stupid is tradition. And that wears awfully thin when times get tough.

 

 

It isn't inevitable. Those types of leaders, by the system that put them into a leadership role, can and would be evicted from office. I'm sure that you understand the system that you support every other November is capable of such a thing.

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It isn't inevitable. Those types of leaders, by the system that put them into a leadership role, can and would be evicted from office. I'm sure that you understand the system that you support every other November is capable of such a thing.
That's funny! It can be rationally argued that the election of Nov, 2004, did in fact put in place a national administration out of touch with the People, out of touch with military reality, and out of touch with economic reality! We will be paying for that mistake for many years to come. (IMHO)

 

Of course, I could be wrong. :doh: The point is, you cannot design a system that guarantees the "wrong" people will not get into power. Precisely because you cannot predict who the "wrong" people are with any certainty. They may be the "right" people for an upbeat economy with low inflation and good foreign relations -- and precisely the "wrong" people if the economy sours and somebody starts a war in the wrong place for the wrong reasons.

 

And you are correct, in that IF the "wrong" people DO get into power (which is inevitable but hopefully rare) then the system will work to get them out of power in a judicious manner. Without having to resort to armed insurrection.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Its here and in mainstream news now. Sorry protesters! :painting:

All the pieces seem to be falling in place; a tightly monitored dystopian future controlled by the wealthy elite.

Maybe Aldous Huxley and George Orwell weren't that far off their rocker...

 

Ray gun makes targets feel like they're on fire - Innovation - MSNBC.com

 

The weapon is not expected to go into production until at least 2010, but all branches of the military have expressed interest in it, officials said.

 

During the first media demonstration of the weapon Wednesday, airmen fired beams from a large dish antenna mounted atop a Humvee at people pretending to be rioters and acting out other scenarios U.S. troops might encounter.

 

The crew fired beams from more than 500 yards (450 meters) away, nearly 17 times the range of existing non-lethal weapons, such as rubber bullets.

 

While the sudden, 130-degree Fahrenheit (54-degree Celsius) heat was not painful, it was intense enough to make participants think their clothes were about to ignite.

 

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Okay, time to redirect the conversation then.

How do we shield from it?

 

In one of the great ironies of modern life, the long made fun of tin-foil hats may prove useful:hyper:

 

To the earlier post regarding tyrants of years gone by not having technology to easily disperse unruly folk that opposed them, they did. The technology was called guns and left people in far worse shape than this will:)

 

And YES I do agree, there are bad things about this. However, I also believe there are good things as well. As with any weapon, it is not the weapon that is good or bad, it is the person/people that use it.

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Surely, it would take more than Reynold's Wrap to get past that big monster on top of the Humvee, no?

 

Not sure, anyone know if the frequency used by the weapon will permiate tin foil? They have said it will penatrate clothes, it won't penetrate walls, and it penetrates skin to 1/64th of an inch I believe?

 

If it only penetrates skin to 1/64th inch, perhaps tinfoil would be enough?

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How do we shield from it?
An engineering rule-of-thumb is that microwave reflectors need to have gaps no larger than 1/10 the wavelength of their signal. So, to reflect a 95 GHz beam, you have to have at least a mesh of good conductor (eg: aluminum, copper) woven finer than 3e8/95e/10 = 0.3 mm. Or no gaps at all, as in aluminum foil.
Surely, it would take more than Reynold's Wrap to get past that big monster on top of the Humvee,
I think reynold’s wrap would work fine. It’s difficult to make a shield big enough to hide behind that can stand up to any sort of wind and abuse, a a suit that covers your whole body that won’t fall apart after within a few steps (I’ve actually tried this, by way of a Halloween costume), so it wouldn’t be the sort of thing one could assemble quickly.

 

What one can quickly assemble at a typical scene where the ADS is likely to be used are human beings – that is, make sure to keep plenty of people between you and the ADS. If you’re well organized, it’s possible to prevent the front row of a crowd from getting past the next row, creating a dreadful situation where the ADS operator must either repeatedly irradiate the same people, injuring or killing them, retreat, or be overrun.

 

I’d be remiss in not noting that, against a system such as the ADS, an effective defense is offensive – shoot it. Though the unit appears to be rugged enough to be difficult to disable with the sort of small arms fire likely to be on hand in a typical American crowd, I suspect it would be vulnerable to concentrated assault rifle, fire, and almost certainly RPG or medium/heavy machine gun fire, weapons which are, unfortunately, on hand in many troubled places these days. :D

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Though the unit appears to be rugged enough to be difficult to disable with the sort of small arms fire likely to be on hand in a typical American crowd, I suspect it would be vulnerable to concentrated assault rifle, fire, and almost certainly RPG or medium/heavy machine gun fire, weapons which are, unfortunately, on hand in many troubled places these days. :D

Good point, however, playing this to fruition, if RPG or machine gun fire were used against the vehicle, I'd be led to believe this would escalate the situation beyond nonlethal, and soldiers inside would respond in kind (or, disconcertingly, more effectively). i.e. they no longer worry about their little microwave crowd splitter and start using their fully automatics mowing down the crowd...

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  • 2 weeks later...

Lions catch antelope. Antelope respond in kind by developing ever better camouflage. The predators respond in kind by developing finer-tuned sensed, eyesight, hearing, smell, better and more intelligent hunting tactics, etc. Then the prey respond to that, and the cycle continues.

 

Same with countries. The arms race between prey and predator in the animal world found expression amongst humans with weapon inventories escalating to the point where the US and USSR sat with humunguous, absolutely unusable nuclear stockpiles, acting as a mutual deterrent. They went over the limit needed to destroy the world a few times over, simply because they had to keep up with the other side.

 

Once again, same with public unrest. People march up and down the street, waving their banners, etc., and the cops come and break it up if its an illegal protest. Keep in mind, that the cops perform the will of the State, it the people art protesting some performance of the State, there is no guarantee that a valid and morally right protest will not be declared an 'illegal' gathering by the State who wish to escape humiliation and embarrassment. So the cops break it up with batons. The protestors, much like the antelope, respond to this by better tactics, breaking up the police baton concentrations in one place in order to break through somewhere else. The cops, very much like the lions, respond by using better weapons working at a longer range. Next time the protestors try their baton-response, the cops will simply haul out the rubber bullets. And the protestors will, once again, respond to this, as well. And so the cycle continues.

 

Using this microwave thingamadoody will only work for a very short while, then the protestors will subvert it and if tinfoil suits don't work, they'll have to take it out using either rockets, or by charging it physically from multiple sides at once. Then, it'll have to get physical, and the protestors will have to disable the military personnel who manned the microwave 'cannon'. Then' it won't simply be a protest or illegal gathering anymore. On the news, you'll see how the vicious crowd attacked the innocent military, and killed a few. This will justify the escalation of putting more and more and more military onto the scene, because now the crowd is killing the troops. Then, the troops will receive orders to fire live rounds with prejudice, because the situation has changed to deadly now. And so the cycle continues, lions and antelope.

 

I think instead of investing in more and better and fancier and 'less-lethal' weapons which might temp the operators to abuse it, those wishing to suppress a public gathering (whether legal or illegal) should maybe ask those gathering around with placards in their hands, rocks (the oldest of weapons) in the other, why are they gathering in the first place, and what could be done to alleviate their grievances. Maybe consensus-seeking should take precedence over escalating an arms race with an unhappy sector of the population - whether this population is domestic, or happen to be in a country occupied by you. There is no difference - countries aren't made by governments; countries are made by the very people whose will you're trying to suppress with these microwave gadgets. And a Great Country led by a Great Leader should, at the very least, respect that.

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Forget shielding, my question is, what is effective in reflecting these waves? Could a protestor simply use a parabolic dish made out of any such material and redircet the waves back at the humvee? (Thus causing the driver and operator to run out of the car screaming for their mommies) I think I saw this in a roadrunner episode once.

 

Obviously the answer is yes, since the dish on top of the humvee does just that.

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