Israel

[JOEBIALEK]

In a recent publication of U.S. News and World Report, David Gergen wrote an editorial titled "An Unfair Attack". In the article he issues a rebuttal to an article written by John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walttitles {"The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy"}. Gergen states the following: "In essence, their 82-page piece argues that U.S. policy in the Middle East has been hijacked by a pro-Israel "Lobby." "The core of the Lobby," they say, "is comprised of American Jews who make a significant effort in their daily lives to bend U.S. foreign policy so that it advances Israel's interests." As a result, "the United States has a terrorism problem in good part because it is so closely allied with Israel." I agree with Mearsheimer and Walttitles.

 

Back in 1948 when the Jewish state of Israel was created, the United States and Britain agreed to allow it to exist in its present place of location. Evidently no thought was given to the long term effects of creating such a state in the middle of so many Arab countries. It would have been wiser to use this land to create a place where all three major religions could visit to practice their faiths but not be allowed to reside their. The State of Israel should have been established anywhere but the Middle East. Consequently, the United States has obligated itself to support a so-called democratic Jewish state against potential threats from the Arab monarchial dictatorships. This has indeed opened the door to undue influence from the "Jewish lobby" not only on U.S. policy in the Middle East but also on domestic policy as well. Few could doubt the negative influence they have on the media and the entertainment industry.

 

As for negative stereotypes, the Jews have been known to create their own. Everything from their materialistic money mongering to their history of being forcefully removed from so many countries. It always seems very ironic that the Jews continue to decry themselves as the only victims of a holocaust where in fact their own bible describes in detail how they massacred many nations and cultures. Some historians believe it was their investment money that helped sponsor the African slave trade. Even their own Talmud states that "Jesus is in hell and is being punished by being boiled in semen." Still further, while the Jews advocate diversity in the United States, only those born into Jewish families may attain citizenship in Israel. Mearsheimer and Walttitles are right and therefore the United States should withdraw from its support of Israel. Perhaps then will the so-called chosen people wisen up and learn to get along peacefully with the rest of the world.

[Tormod]

Urm...I fail to see a point of view here. What exactly are you saying? That Israel has brought something upon itself?

 

I am a bit wary of statements like "the Jews have been know to create their own". In this respect they are much like any people. I consider your statement heavily biased and basically unwarranted! Maybe you could clarify this position.

[Buffy]

I will make the assumption up front that you are not a neo-Nazi or an "Zionism is Racism" Muslim fanatic. But to rebut your commentary:

As a result, "the United States has a terrorism problem in good part because it is so closely allied with Israel."

Actually, while this is the public excuse that al-Qaida and the like pronounce, the support of the US for Arab and Persian dictators is really the much more inflamatory issue. From the al-Saud's, to the Shah, to Sadat and Mubarak, the reactionary forces like the Muslim Brotherhood are *really* seeking political control within their own countries. While the plight of the Palestinians provides a cover for their more self-serving machinations, the Palestinians I know all tell me that they feel used when it comes to the "support" from other Arab and Muslim groups.

Evidently no thought was given to the long term effects of creating such a state in the middle of so many Arab countries.

What Arab countries? It was all under the control of the British, and Americans either as actual colonies or by proxy. As just one example, Iraq was granted nominal independence as a patchwork of ethnicities who hated each other (something the Brits did on *purpose* to keep it busy fighting with itself) and when they didn't behave, the Brits invaded again and installed a more friendly government. That one was not overthrown by the Baathists until 1958.

 

There are others who argue the opposite, that they were smart since at that time the far more inflamatory move would have been to create a Christian/Phalangist country in the area (which in fact is what Lebanon started out to be), because it would have immediately become the "Tenth Crusade."

It would have been wiser to use this land to create a place where all three major religions could visit to practice their faiths but not be allowed to reside their.

In essence, that pretty much happened, since Lebanon, Jordan, and Israel (with the latter two splitting Jerusalem all the way up to the Six-Day War).

 

You cannot ignore the fact that the Holocaust created not just great sympathy but a really good excuse for the Jews to have a country of their own that would give them some protection from the widespread hatred of them as a minority. Recognize also that the Arabs had burned their bridges to getting many consessions at all from the western powers: the Mufti of Jerusalem strongly allied himself with Hitler, and according to some convinced Hitler to stop allowing Jews to emigrate to the holy land. Moreover, while there's lots of claims to the land, there's no question that the Jews have at *least* as much right to it as anyone, if not the primary right from a historical stand point. No one has "given" them anything they didn't already have a claim to.

 

The argument that the Arabs were forced out of the country is simply false as well: the Arab countries that attacked Israel in 1967 told the Palestinians to leave because they were going to win the war and they'd give it back to them later. Ooops.

This has indeed opened the door to undue influence from the "Jewish lobby" not only on U.S. policy in the Middle East but also on domestic policy as well.

There are certain very powerful Fundamentalist Christian groups who believe that turmoil in the middle east--which is a precondition to the Second Coming--can best be promoted by supporting the most reactionary elements in the Likud. Even Arial Sharon turned his back on this just before his stroke. All presidents from Ike to Clinton have supported--and nearly achieved--peace between the warring parties. Only the Bush administration has changed to an intransigent support of the extremist Israeli groups. *That* has made us a much bigger and easier target.

Few could doubt the negative influence they have on the media and the entertainment industry.

That's a slanderous statement that is completely unfounded. I will ignore it and pretend you're not as prejudiced as this statement makes you sound.

Everything from their materialistic money mongering...

Getting harder to ignore, but I'll try.

to their history of being forcefully removed from so many countries.

This is *their* fault? How? The Jews have been the favorite whipping boy because they are a *minority* in all these countries. Should they all have just "done what is right" and converted? Your position is getting harder to interpret as benign...

It always seems very ironic that the Jews continue to decry themselves as the only victims of a holocaust where in fact their own bible describes in detail how they massacred many nations and cultures.

Huh? The old testament mostly has them as being serially enslaved...

Still further, while the Jews advocate diversity in the United States, only those born into Jewish families may attain citizenship in Israel.

Are you saying the "Jews" are a monolithic group? And your facts are a bit off: anyone can become a citizen of Israel, but there are far fewer barriers if you are Jewish. Is this discrimination? Sure, but then Israel is indeed a "Jewish State". So what? We now know that a death sentance is widely supported in Arab countries for converting to Christianity. Which is the more extreme position?

Mearsheimer and Walttitles are right and therefore the United States should withdraw from its support of Israel. Perhaps then will the so-called chosen people wisen up and learn to get along peacefully with the rest of the world.

This is a reasonable policy alternative, but *not* because Marsheimer and Walttitles are "right"--which in my view they are not. BUT, you have to ask yourself, between complete disengagement and constructive engagement of *both* sides, which will produce a solution that will be most beneficial to all of the inhabitants of the region? And maybe result in the fewest deaths from the conflict? You have made *no* recognition of the fact that Israeli politics is deeply divided and their parliamentary system has given undue influence to extremist elements. No one there "needs to be taught a lesson", and those that are the most problem will not learn the hard way either. It will take time, but just taking our ball and going home is really not going to help. There is a burden associated with being a superpower, and if you're not willing to step up to the plate, you might as well go move somewhere else.

 

Disraelian,

Buffy

[TheBigDog]

I was going to respond thoughfully to this post, but seeing the expert disection done by Buffy I felt there was no more to say on the topic. So instead I went and read all the posts you have ever made, Mr Joe. All seven.

 

You have started 3 threads. All begin with a statement such as the one above, stating a position on some subject in a rather definative way. Discussion happens among those who read your post. And then you reply with the single line, "good points" and you never contribute again. No discussion from you of any kind at all. I am questioning your own ability to communicate, an ability that you certainly advocated in your post on Education. I am challenging you to display this communication ability - come on out and discuss the topic instead of luring in the shadows.

 

I do have one question... What do the JFK conspiracy, term limits and prerequisite office holding for Federal elected positions, education reform that would foster intelligence and ambitoin class separation, and US support of Israel have in common? I am still at a loss about your larger agenda. Maybe I should start a thread exclusivly for the discussion of the meanings behind these cryptic topics, in an attempt to foster discussion about what makes JOEBIALEK tick? Maybe I will just hyjack this one since all it is ever going to get from you again is "good points".

 

Bill

[JOEBIALEK]

only a Jew finds the truth anti-semitic

[infamous]

only a Jew finds the truth anti-semitic

Statements like that are very racist JOE..., I'd like to know what prompted you to say something so blatantly discriminatory. And I'd be a little careful how you word your next post, we have rules against racist remarks.....................Infy

[Boerseun]

only a Jew finds the truth anti-semitic

In which case you say that the truth is the opposing viewpoint to whatever might be pro-semitic. Meaning that anything being the pro-semitic viewpoint, would be a lie. So if I say 'I have a Jewish friend, and he's a good man', I simply must be lying. Which, of course, means that you know my Jewish friend. Which also implies that you know each and every Jew on this planet, in order for that generalization of yours to hold any water. Jews are spread all over the world. For you to know all of them on a personal level, you must be flying and driving a heck of a lot. Tell me - how many kazillion frequent flyer miles have you racked up? You must've flown around the world about a million times now! And AVIS probably love you to bits.

 

Or maybe the most likely scenario is that you are simply a blatant racist of note, and you should consider yourself warned.

[Racoon]

All presidents from Ike to Clinton have supported--and nearly achieved--peace between the warring parties. Only the Bush administration has changed to an intransigent support of the extremist Israeli groups. *That* has made us a much bigger and easier target.

 

Politics is full-time stress.

I found this little nugget. :) Guess that could be perceived as bad for the country!

 

Love that word Buffy, "intransigent", which sums up Bush's style. :D

 

I don't see why so many people Hate the Jews.

I've worked for one. They are smart! Thats why they make the best Doctors and thats why they own Banks and Hollywood! (and Furniture and Jewlery stores)

The only people who can outsmart a Jew is an Armenian...

 

Israel is a tricky situation. Enough to give anyone a Heart Attack. :)

We've been close to peace before, and hopefully the Christians don't try and hasten the "second coming of Christ"

 

The Rapture Index :(

[UncleAl]

"Jesus is in hell and is being punished by being boiled in semen."

How big is the vat and who volunteered its contents? The average human male's ejaculation sums to a teaspoon or 5 ml. Given: Jesus was a typical Palestinian of the time, about 163 cm in height. Let's try a spherical cauldron half that wide and high (Jesus gets to sit while stewing), say 40 cm radius in round numbers. Total volume is then (4/3)(pi)r^3 or 268,000 ml. The cauldron filling less Jesus is 3/4 that to avoid spillage. At 5ml/pop I make that to be about 40,200 ejaculations required.

 

Los Angeles' Angel Stadium has a seating capacity of 45,050. The foregoing scenario seems physically unlikely. Elephants only get you 93 ml semen/donor,

 

J. Reprod. Fertil. 72(1) 187 (1984)

 

OTOH, we could have Jesus fill his own cauldron. Figure he's good for three sessions/day, 15 ml/day, and gets the Sabbath to rest. I make that to be 57.3 years. What in Hell transpires during the delay, refrigeration of interim results? "Jesus is coming - look busy."

while the Jews advocate diversity in the United States, only those born into Jewish families may attain citizenship in Israel.

Same for the Mexican constitution vis-a-vs foreigners vs. Mexicans. Do you have a problem with Roman Catholic Mexicans, git?

[HydrogenBond]

Israel offered a friendly stategic allie in the middle east during the cold war years. The Soviet Union had their own allies in the regions and Israel helped provide a checks and balance for the region. The support for Israel was in our self interest and worth every penny. After the fall of the Soviet Union, Israel is not quite as important with respect to our national interest and peace of mind. That is not to say Israel is not important, because it is. But it may no longer be worth the same level of expense to the American people. Lobbyists keep the levels up through sentiment.

 

The scenario is, what would happen if we cut back expense.

[Racoon]

agree and disagree

 

Israel is very important.

 

They may need to do some of the dirty work that we don't want to risk our politics on.

Their Mossad is incredibly efficient and intelligent. it is said they have infiltrated every terrorist organization.

 

Why do you think their airports are so safe...???

 

It also keeps the US from being the primary target.

 

Jews are incredibly smart. and supplied with our weapons, Israel becomes a force Iran, Syria, and others are reluctant to tackle.

 

Like Buffy said, those nations got handed their *** in the 6 day war!:shrug:

 

I have no problem supporting Israel. And I don't mind their tactics.

They are in a rough neighborhood to say the least...

 

They will Bomb Iran before Iran has achance to do so to Israel.

Its probably already authorized...

 

Don't forget they bombed Iraq's Nuclear Capabilities in the 80's.

Or Iraq would have Nuclear...

 

The Jews aren't gonna' F around either. And I don't blame them...

[HydrogenBond]

Israel is already is better equipment than their neighbors. We could save money by giving them only replacement parts until a local threat is able to reach near techincal par, them we upgrade them; for a total savings. We kicked Iraq's butt in the first Gulf War with more causualties in the dress rehersal and due to friendly fire, than by the hands of Iraqies. I was glad we won, but I didn't feel right about shooting fish in a barrel. I don't feel right about creating a potential bully. This creates resentment against US.

[Buffy]

It should be noted that we're an equal opportunity enabler in the Middle East. While Israel gets $2bn in "aid" every year (about half of that is military that we'd be spending anyway!), so does Egypt. Both are being paid for having made peace, and in my book, that's worth it if it provides an ongoing carrot for the other players who could join in like Syria's (brutally suppressed) opposition. Jordan gets a good chunk too.

 

Could we spend less? Sure. But none of this "aid" can be shown as being us "taking sides" with anyone other than those who want to make peace rather than war.....

 

Truth? Mine or yours?

Buffy

[Qfwfq]

with anyone other than those who want to make peace rather than war.....

:hihi:

 

Truth? Mine or yours? :lol:

[Racoon]

It should be noted that we're an equal opportunity enabler in the Middle East. While Israel gets $2bn so does Egypt.. Jordan gets a good chunk too.

 

Truth? Mine or yours?

 

"Yours" dear! (which would be "Mine"- in your cerebral cortex :hihi: )

When you said my name, Jordan, I had to respond...

 

Pay-offs make for good politics...

[HydrogenBond]

The numbers are less than I expected. It is not as much as I thought, considering their advanced capability and small tax base. Maybe because of access to advanced tech without the R&D costs, that make toilet seats cost $500. for American tax payers, they can get more for the $2B.

 

Here was my next line of thought. Israel is sort of a mini super power, with nukes and advanced capability. This may have been needed during cold wars times. If they were downgraded, via alterring the preferred tech status, from mini super power, to an important world power, they would still be very capable of defending themselves. If they wanted superpower status they would need to raise taxes and we would sell them that extra capability, but at a fair market price. The extra internal pressure due to taxes would shift attitude more toward the diplomacy. This may lead to some serious dilogue that may help get Israel some local allies.

[HydrogenBond]

I would like to add something important that needs to be addressed. I thought about this, and I do not mean anything in an anti-semetic way. I have many good friends who are Jewish. Good people are good people. When one talks about Israel one is required to walk gingerly on eggshells or risk being stereo-typed anti-semetic. There is a preferred script, and anything not on the script is treated as an insult and labels one a bigot.

 

If one wants to rag on the Catholics, Baptist, Mexicans, Arabs, Americans, etc., one is cut more slack. The script is a little more flexible. I do not believe in any one-sided way of thinking, but usually like to argue both sides, so I can learn the arguments of both sides. When it comes to Israel this is hard to do in any public forum without feeling threatened with the label of bigot even if the intentions are to seek the truth.