Atheism and Faith

[C1ay]

C1ay

 

You might as well say the answer to everything is 42.

 

Write it in a book and someone, somewhere, will believe it.

 

JQ

Yeah, why? Because I don't accept purported supernatural claims as fact without proof? That's the bottom line about religion isn't it, accepting the claim of a supernatural entity without proof? That someone wants to offer the Urantia book or the bible as evidence to support such claims is really providing no evidence at all. Evidence can be tested, these items cannot.

[Saitia]

Hello C1ay,

 

 

I do not accept any claim of supernatural origins of such a book with absolutely no scientific proof of any supernatural existance. (sic) Without rigorous scientific proof of the supernatural I regard such claims as science fiction.

 

Then you must know how it feels to be a one-legged man in an ***-kicking contest. ;)

Reason is the proof of science, faith the proof of religion, and logic is the proof of philosophy.

That isn't going to change any time soon. There is real "proof" of spiritual reality in the presence of the Spirit within us, but the validity of its presence simply isn't demonstrable to the external world; only to the ones who experience it. And just like any other human experience, it can be a mixture of truth and error, or right and wrong.

 

Reason is the act of recognizing the conclusions of consciousness regarding the experience in and with the physical world; faith is the act of recognizing the validity of spiritual consciousness— something which is incapable of "scientific proof."

Logic can produce a unity of faith and reason, because it is founded on our innate ability to recognize things, meanings, and values. Science can use reason until it arrives at a hypothesis of a First Cause, but that's really as far as it can go. But religion can use faith until it is sure of a God of salvation.

 

The discriminating study of science logically suggests the reality and existence of an Absolute. Religion, on the other hand, believes in the existence of an Absolute which provides survival. What metaphysics fails to do, and even philosophy partially fails in doing, revelation does; that is, affirms that the hypothetical First Cause of science and religion's God of salvation are one and the same.

 

—Saitia

[InfiniteNow]

Saitia,

 

I can appreciate your passion, but honestly what you describe above is known as a self-reinforcing delusion. This is not intended as an attack on you or your character, but it is worth noting that claiming it to be true without support is not only silly, but mistaken.

 

Belief and faith are fine if you have them. But you will be cutting off your own feet from under you the moment you try to tell someone else that this is something you "know" with absolutely any degree of certainty.

 

 

Cheers. :phones:

[Boerseun]

Reason is the proof of science, faith the proof of religion, and logic is the proof of philosophy.

I dig this. Quite poetic.

There is real "proof" of spiritual reality in the presence of the Spirit within us...

Sweet. Bring it on.

[C1ay]

Reason is the proof of science, faith the proof of religion, and logic is the proof of philosophy.

IMO, science is the study and knowledge of observable reality, logic is one of the tools of philosophy and religion is a crutch invoked to explain the cause of observable phenomenon that we don't have answers for yet. Observable reality does not depend on the existance of religion nor does truth. Believe whatever you want but do not expect me to accept unprovable evidence as proof itself of anything. If you want to use supernatural evidence you must first prove that it exists. It is unreasonable to expect anyone to accept claims that the supernatural exists without proof that it does.

[arkain101]

This will go not understood..

 

I think survival instinct and survival phenominom goes hand in hand with god and supernatural.

[Nammy]

Read the entire thread-it is the same saga..throwing stones at the opposites...ever heard of ignostics? Here is a quote from another site :

Quote:

Before we ask ourselves if God exists we need to determine if the question is relevant, or even sensible. Ignosticism holds that the question is not important and in fact doesn't even make sense.

 

Ignostics believe that because God's existence has no verifiable consequences that the question is meaningless. Asking if God exists is likened to the question "What color are Sundays?". Atheists and Theists are both guilty of making the mistake of trying pose a serious answer to a ridiculous question.

 

Even if one decides that ignosticism isn't for them and decides that the question of God is worth trying to answer another problem must be decided before one can proceed. What the heck are you talking about when you say God?. Many of the common definitions of God lack cognitive meaning. Also almost every answer given in an attempt to define God does not actually describe God or his nature, but rather lists a relational attribute. Depending on who you ask relying soley on relational attributes may or may not be considered a valid method of providing a definition.

Unquote.

 

Theological noncognitivism views religous language as ambiguious and free of inherint meaning. Thus while the question of God's existence may be considered legitimate, in order for an answer to be given God must first be defined in a satisfactory manner. Noncognitivists do not find meaning in any of the given definitions of God, and thus can not answer the question of his (or her, or its) existence.

[TheBigDog]

...ever heard of ignostics?

Another atheist faction heard from. Time for the atheist pope to come out and make some statements and get everyone back in the same camp again.

 

Bill

[Nammy]

Another really good explanation of Ignostic : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignostic

[ughaibu]

This thread has been running for two and a half weeks yet still there's been no attempt by believers to address it's question.

Presumably there are two general cases: 1) those who were born and brought up in religious environments, who have never conciously not believed, and 2) those who initially had no belief but due to changing circumstances, internal or external, adopted a theistic belief. Case 1) is more of a 'how' explanation and case 2) a 'why' explanation.

As there are several believers frequenting this thread, it would be nice to read their personal case histories. Failing that, it would at least be illuminating to read why they are so reluctant to answer Questor's rather simple enquiry.

[infamous]

There are several reasons why people develope faith:

 

#1. They are brought up with it and continue to build and grow their experience.

 

#2. They develope a dissatifaction with their current lives and seek out answers in a relifious group.

 

#3. A few after sinking to the lowest levels of society, drug abuse, alcoholism, or any other of many self inflicted abuses, they come to understand of their own mortality and look for another form of fulfillment.

 

#4. In my own case; They have a near death experience which convinces them that there is indeed, life after death.

 

As everyone here knows, neither one of the four reasons I've listed can be proved to be a good reason for everyone. Individuals make personal choices in their lives that are specific to their own understanding, don't ask me to prove mine, I can't prove it to you but I've proved it to myself..................Infy

[ughaibu]

Infamous: Thanks for your story.

[C1ay]

#4. In my own case; They have a near death experience which convinces them that there is indeed, life after death.

But this brings us to yet another fork. I tend to believe that there is some sort of spirit or soul that gives the body life, a form of energy yet to be explained or even verified. For me though this does not hint at the existance of any God, just a facet of our life that we currently lack the technology to explore or the knowledge to understand.

[Tormod]

Before we ask ourselves if God exists we need to determine if the question is relevant, or even sensible. Ignosticism holds that the question is not important and in fact doesn't even make sense.

 

I believe that this is the position that I was ridiculed for a couple of pages back. :hihi:

[infamous]

But this brings us to yet another fork. I tend to believe that there is some sort of spirit or soul that gives the body life, a form of energy yet to be explained or even verified.

Good points C1ay; I have similiar views about the reality of our existence..........

 

 

For me though this does not hint at the existance of any God,

If I may respectfully suggest, that all depends on how you define God.

 

 

 

just a facet of our life that we currently lack the technology to explore or the knowledge to understand.

It truly is just spectulation at this point in our understanding. There may be some greatly underestimated surprises in store for us all. Who's to say?..............We humans know so little at this point in our evolution, yet, many times we act so wise..........................Infy

[someguy]

Never have I seen such intelligent conversation regarding belief or non-belief in God.

Personally, I do not believe in God. I would say I am an Athiest. Some would like to lump me with agnostics, I do not feel I belong there because I fell more strongly there is no God than that it is undecided. This is not to say, I believe God does not exist. I believe in the possibility although I believe it quite remote. Belief, to me, is never absolute. Belief can always be changed in the face of enough evidence. This is what science teaches us.

It is important to define what God is, before you say you believe or not. If God is the God of the Bible, Quran, Talmud or any other religiuos book then no I do not believe in God. For me all of these books are written by men and are not the word of any God. If God is a being in any sense why would he/she care about us. If you created a world complete with little people in it in a laboratory, would you find it necessary for them to worship you? Would you write a book for them to follow so they could go to a special place when they died? What would be the personality of this God? The Bible paints the picture of a child of a God who demands respect and worship, who smites those who defy him and tests the loyalty of those who beleive with extreme hardships.

Gods choose to remain remote and questionable. Why? If I were this God I would make myself known. What purpose would there be to hide or remain unseen?

These are some reasons why I believe the way I do.

 

Satia,

You said you didn't believe in "Higher Authority" yet you mention you believe in God. Isn't that what God is to you?

You also said you used to be an Athiest. What made you change your mind?

 

Someguy

[someguy]

Another atheist faction heard from. Time for the atheist pope to come out and make some statements and get everyone back in the same camp again.

 

Bill

It seems to make you more comfortable in your faith to think others are really just the same. This implies disbelief in your faith.