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Atheism and Faith


questor

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Hello Dorsey,

Good of you to join this conversation.

 

My friend there was no word for GOD in my tribe (American Indian), spirit yes, GOD no, Christ no, rocks, bugs, trees, water,birds, yes all spirits, you and I were all spirits, that would happen again and again, in accordance with how you lived while in the presense of your brother or fellow persons (Man or woman), you have the right to claim the spirit of your first ancestor, be cautious it may have been a crock or turtle or what ever.

This is interesting, and I prefer such an explanation of spirituality. I don not believe that God, as an all-powerful being, is necessary as, if I am reading this correctly, your tribe did not have a word for God. Yet still there is a spirituallity to it.

I was an Eagle, as told by my ancestors. GOD is a summation of ancient terms when the expression of GOD happends 12 out of 16 times it is near or during a serious cry for help when things are out of control.

How did God suddenly pop up when you had no word for it?

Theology will demonstrate several points of "worship", Yan Yen, Budda, Christ, Moe, and more, one thing is consistant, all tell you what GOD said. All say the same thing

Big differences to the way all these people view God. Very argueable that they refer to different Gods altogether.

If you want to lump everyone they should at least beleive in the same thing. Actually buddhism, at least some forms does not have God.

, if you are saying GOD aint real , (that's not what I feel) , then you are only saying that the agnostic attitude needs more evidence before you select a platform, no platform, is better than the wrong one,

I believe this is partially true, however, no platform is an option and very well could be the right one. Rejecting other platforms is not the only thing an athiest does. They also realize that no platform is very much so an option and definitely the one they lean towards. People of faith think that the arguement lies in "how" God exists rather than "if" God exists. There is no "if " for those of faith because they suspended judgement and accepted this on faith. Now the only question is how.

You have to understand the the level of communication was "Light Years" from where it is now and the close examination was better off summerized. In my world, GOD is real .. at level 4 QM , we can almost demostrate an infinite and undeniable "force" that is MAN's mind, which is in the image of GOD (man).

Says who? Do you God's image and if so how?

Try this; Can a dog tell right from wrong, or good from bad .. can a wolf give a care? Is a wolf a dog?

Yes that's why they hang their head in shame when they do wrong and know it. Yes a wolf is a canine?

Creativity and imagination are where you find GOD like attributes nor raw facts that change into confusing more facts.

Creativity and imagintaion do not come from you? Why does this serve as God stuff? Is it not possible that these are just your attributes?

Spend two hours asking GOD to show you something in private, You will see that the things we argue about in this forum will sway your opinion and atleast your special input will be much needed. I promise you once you relax long enough to recieve the word the light will shine within and you will feel the presence of GOD.

So you are saying that if I ask God for something (anything?) it will show up? I ask for a million bucks and sit for two hours and it will magically appear? Cool trick, how many millions do you have? Or are you saying that if I meditate for two hours I will gain some insight? If this is what you are saying, I am not doubting that it is possible. What I am doubting is possible is the source, how do you know that it came from God? Where is the objective yardstick with which to gauge the source? Insight is real, creativity is real I say it is something that comes from you not from God. How can anyone say differently and be more right than I am?

 

Later, Some guy

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Dorsey,

I again copmplement you on your bravery to join in the conversation. This is a snide remark for others.

 

WOW!! "Yall" have come to the point or angle not angel or maybe an angel-angle (smile). (Michael was the angel of war, while Gabby was a little bit cooler), or, A collides with B and creates A1-B1,. I have to' tell you; GOD is working the magic, .. Spirits are flying, devils are running.

How do you know and how can you prove it? This is the unltimate problem. You accept that God is "working the magic" but I can not accept that. There is no evidence that this is true. All evidence that exists for your defintions of God is either heresay or opinion. It is entirely possible that they are all incorrect.

As you just explained to our friend the, "Agonot"= agnostic beliver with an open mind, that will trust the first side whom can produce a formula that works every-time in space-time, any where, that demonstrates "where" GOD's house is.!.!.)

People of faith need to learn that when someone says they are an athiest, they mean it. What Tormod said was that if it can be proven he will believe it. Sorry if I am misquoting or misunderstanding you Tormod. It does not make him agnostic because he doesn't know what to believe about God. He is athiest because he beleives God's existence is in question.

The problem is, he is already GOD and will not see, as he looks in the mirror ... Remember once you know the whole story the story is over!

Says who? If we know the universe it suddenly ends? Or what, just gets kinda boring?

So, don't look too deep. Instead add another mirror and lets do some QM. How many replicas of your face can you see now? WOW! there is no end, is it infinite or do you feel your reflection could continue as long as a mirror looks inside of a mirror.

So seeing God is mirror tricks? Which one is God the third or is it when you add all the images of you up? Let's try another experiment. Count. Wow infinty, must be God.

Is point A you, and point B the mirror being falsely representative or does the original reflection, stream into the next , and so on.

Point A is your reflection and point B is the same and on to point z etc. None of them "are" you or God they are images on a flat sheet.

I am surprised you never mentioned this expirament, since you look in a mirror!

Looking in a mirror simply verifies that you exist. Well, that and the fact that others address you.

Reach for something outside of the view of the asending views, you will witness a paradox in time-space.

What?????

I noticed at one point that you may have confused a Ghost with a spirit. Both are spirits, they don't hang out on the same "Plasma Level".

You know some ghosts and can attest to their chemical make up?

I was a staunch Athiest for a year, while attending a Methodas College in TN,

You were a staunch athiest for a year attending a methodist college? Why would an athiest be at a methodist college?

think about this; an American Indian, Agonistic, Christian (Baptist), Choir Singer,Drum Major in a Methodas College on a music scholarship. (Help me).
You were an athiest and an agnostic, were you also a person of faith at the same time?
Theology taught me one thing as well as my Grand and Great-grand parents. All of the sect religions say the same thing, all of the religions share the same thing, that is GOD.

Actually they don't, that is why they hate one another so well. Many religions do not have God, and many do not refer to God as a supreme being. In fact, I heard somewhere that some religions don't even have a word for God. The problem is that they all claim to have "the truth" and yet are all different.

If you, as I have asked you before ... Try it alone on your own, by your self, "Pick a number you want to hit ask for it", . When it hits within 3 days, do not ask any body on this Forum, or Tell any-one, just post more questions.

How is the number supossed to hit? Should I say, "hey God in order to prove it is you I am going to need a big 3 on my lawn tomorrow morning". Or do I have to have something really vague like someway somewhere reveal the number three to me. Oh ****, I just saw a three on the keyboard. Praise the lord, he exists. I guess the conversation is over. Oh wait, I am bound to see the number three throughout the day many times????? Coincidence, I think SO.

I have already promised you that a new light will shine inside of you. You are GOD's image in your mirror, you have GOD's temple in your mind and heart.

If I allow myself to be decieved by coincidence I will get that eerie feeling where the hair on the back of my neck stands up huh. Gee isn't it weird? Absolutely. Does it prove anything? Absolutely not.

You are not saying you don't, but only protesting why the math aint clinical evidance. Neither are Ghost but the spirit in you or feeling won't let you run around being an outlaw with faith.

I am saying I don't have God's image in the mirror and I am saying that God's temple is not inside me or you. At least I am saying that it is unlikely and certainly unproven. I am runninng around without faith and I don't know that I have a spirit to stop me and niether do you. Even if I do have a spirit it does not prove that there is an all powerful being out there. It would prove only that I have a spirit. Who is to say that your spirit would stop you from denying God's existence? Who is to say that my spirit isn't telling me to deny it?

Thanks,

Some Guy

 

 

3--- there it is again nobody freak out.

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Hello Dorsey,

Good of you to join this conversation.

 

 

This is interesting, and I prefer such an explanation of spirituality. I don not believe that God, as an all-powerful being, is necessary as, if I am reading this correctly, your tribe did not have a word for God. Yet still there is a spirituallity to it.

 

How did God suddenly pop up when you had no word for it?

 

Big differences to the way all these people view God. Very argueable that they refer to different Gods altogether.

If you want to lump everyone they should at least beleive in the same thing. Actually buddhism, at least some forms does not have God.

 

I believe this is partially true, however, no platform is an option and very well could be the right one. Rejecting other platforms is not the only thing an athiest does. They also realize that no platform is very much so an option and definitely the one they lean towards. People of faith think that the arguement lies in "how" God exists rather than "if" God exists. There is no "if " for those of faith because they suspended judgement and accepted this on faith. Now the only question is how.

 

Says who? Do you God's image and if so how?

 

Yes that's why they hang their head in shame when they do wrong and know it. Yes a wolf is a canine?

 

Creativity and imagintaion do not come from you? Why does this serve as God stuff? Is it not possible that these are just your attributes?

 

So you are saying that if I ask God for something (anything?) it will show up? I ask for a million bucks and sit for two hours and it will magically appear? Cool trick, how many millions do you have? Or are you saying that if I meditate for two hours I will gain some insight? If this is what you are saying, I am not doubting that it is possible. What I am doubting is possible is the source, how do you know that it came from God? Where is the objective yardstick with which to gauge the source? Insight is real, creativity is real I say it is something that comes from you not from God. How can anyone say differently and be more right than I am?

 

Later, Some guy

I am one of the grains of sand that makes this beach-front, we call existance, plausible. A snow flake in a blizzard contributes more impact than a "'simple heart", trying to find an answer to a question. You have valid questions and the part of "How did I know it came from GOD" is the most importat single thing. In QM (Quantum Mechanics) at the 4th level, the most profound arguments are "Synchronicity" , and "Space/Time" in relation to e=mc2, that leads to indentifying the speed of a weighed mass moving at c speed, or 50m2 speed at the lighter weight or photon occurance, without going back, this page will go to the therum or as someone said the higher level of thought.The eggies !!!! (I get in trouble when I say egg-head)... (smile).

GOD is not a thing. GOD is not a sudden answer to our math. GOD is not going to allow fundamental disrespect, but will influence investigation as to how we can become GOD's, (since we are his image, that took 200 million years to suggest; this is what GOD infered? ) Pay attention to what we say the last DINO took it for granted, I hope we are smarter, or do we need to ask a roach whats up?

I found that a similar accusition between JEWS and JESUS,it existed all of the time during in trible concerns. If a chief fell down in thought or died before, the thought came to a "Table " to argue, and as we are talking now, we are on a table trying to agree on a path, without war. Blackfoot's ......

 

DORSEY

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Dorsey,

I again copmplement you on your bravery to join in the conversation. This is a snide remark for others.

 

 

How do you know and how can you prove it? This is the unltimate problem. You accept that God is "working the magic" but I can not accept that. There is no evidence that this is true. All evidence that exists for your defintions of God is either heresay or opinion. It is entirely possible that they are all incorrect.

 

People of faith need to learn that when someone says they are an athiest, they mean it. What Tormod said was that if it can be proven he will believe it. Sorry if I am misquoting or misunderstanding you Tormod. It does not make him agnostic because he doesn't know what to believe about God. He is athiest because he beleives God's existence is in question.

 

Says who? If we know the universe it suddenly ends? Or what, just gets kinda boring?

 

So seeing God is mirror tricks? Which one is God the third or is it when you add all the images of you up? Let's try another experiment. Count. Wow infinty, must be God.

 

Point A is your reflection and point B is the same and on to point z etc. None of them "are" you or God they are images on a flat sheet.

 

Looking in a mirror simply verifies that you exist. Well, that and the fact that others address you.

 

What?????

 

You know some ghosts and can attest to their chemical make up?

 

You were a staunch athiest for a year attending a methodist college? Why would an athiest be at a methodist college?

You were an athiest and an agnostic, were you also a person of faith at the same time?

 

Actually they don't, that is why they hate one another so well. Many religions do not have God, and many do not refer to God as a supreme being. In fact, I heard somewhere that some religions don't even have a word for God. The problem is that they all claim to have "the truth" and yet are all different.

 

How is the number supossed to hit? Should I say, "hey God in order to prove it is you I am going to need a big 3 on my lawn tomorrow morning". Or do I have to have something really vague like someway somewhere reveal the number three to me. Oh ****, I just saw a three on the keyboard. Praise the lord, he exists. I guess the conversation is over. Oh wait, I am bound to see the number three throughout the day many times????? Coincidence, I think SO.

 

If I allow myself to be decieved by coincidence I will get that eerie feeling where the hair on the back of my neck stands up huh. Gee isn't it weird? Absolutely. Does it prove anything? Absolutely not.

 

I am saying I don't have God's image in the mirror and I am saying that God's temple is not inside me or you. At least I am saying that it is unlikely and certainly unproven. I am runninng around without faith and I don't know that I have a spirit to stop me and niether do you. Even if I do have a spirit it does not prove that there is an all powerful being out there. It would prove only that I have a spirit. Who is to say that your spirit would stop you from denying God's existence? Who is to say that my spirit isn't telling me to deny it?

Thanks,

Some Guy

 

 

3--- there it is again nobody freak out.

A lot of people feel your are carrying the "TRUTH", not because of the agnostic apprache, but because of the questions you demonstrate. "An angel called Michael "was," sent to F.. you up" people., Gabriel was sent to teach or deliver, (was most likely a woman) was , very strong, but cool. You are not either, (I thought you might be), however; you are the truth of your world and the only link to peace of mind ... I am sure all of this communication has a reason, I feel you need to feel that whom ever you speak with has something to offer, bartering is still the norm ... I have to go do some things. Can we talk later?....

 

DORSEY

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I am one of the grains of sand that makes this beach-front, we call existance, plausible. A snow flake in a blizzard contributes more impact than a "'simple heart", trying to find an answer to a question.

Very nice prose. What does it mean?

You have valid questions and the part of "How did I know it came from GOD" is the most importat single thing.

Did you answer the important question here.

In QM (Quantum Mechanics) at the 4th level, the most profound arguments are "Synchronicity" , and "Space/Time" in relation to e=mc2, that leads to indentifying the speed of a weighed mass moving at c speed, or 50m2 speed at the lighter weight or photon occurance, without going back, this page will go to the therum or as someone said the higher level of thought.The eggies !!!! (I get in trouble when I say egg-head)... (smile).

Have you been reading the Tao of Physics? Frijtof Capra and Carl Jung are a little nutty and I am not so sure they have interpeted QM correctly. I would say that a study of QM would be necessary of anyone who intends to make claims about just what it means to spirituality. I wouldn't walk around talking about it if i didn't understand it completely, but who does really?

GOD is not a thing.

This a very interesting statement. Does that mena God is not a being?If so we have no further need for discussion because that is what I have been saying all along.

GOD is not a sudden answer to our math.

What does that mean??

GOD is not going to allow fundamental disrespect, but will influence investigation as to how we can become GOD's, (since we are his image, that took 200 million years to suggest; this is what GOD infered? )

God is not a thing but is some"thing" or someone who allows something to happen? So we are suppossed to become god's, is there a posessive here? Who says we are in his image? I say he is in our image. Man created God in his image.

Pay attention to what we say the last DINO took it for granted, I hope we are smarter, or do we need to ask a roach whats up?

Huh? pay attention to who? What is a DINO? Ask roach?

 

I found that a similar accusition between JEWS and JESUS,it existed all of the time during in trible concerns. If a chief fell down in thought or died before, the thought came to a "Table " to argue, and as we are talking now, we are on a table trying to agree on a path, without war.

Is there any reason to believe the chief knows what is best for all? Or that this particular cheif was the son of God? Why should it be important to argue the message before we judge its validity?

 

Some Guy

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A lot of people feel your are carrying the "TRUTH", not because of the agnostic apprache, but because of the questions you demonstrate.

There can be only one truth so alot of people are just plain wrong. Why doesn't everyone just accept that chances are they are wrong? Why don't we operate on the assumption that you can not accept heresay as truth. Oh wait we do that, just not when it comes tyo faith.

"An angel called Michael "was," sent to F.. you up" people., Gabriel was sent to teach or deliver, (was most likely a woman) was , very strong, but cool. You are not either, (I thought you might be), however; you are the truth of your world and the only link to peace of mind ...

I am not sure I follow you here?

I am sure all of this communication has a reason, I feel you need to feel that whom ever you speak with has something to offer,

Or maybe I have something to offer them? freedom?

Can we talk later?....

Sure

 

Some Guy

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There can be only one truth so alot of people are just plain wrong. Why doesn't everyone just accept that chances are they are wrong? Why don't we operate on the assumption that you can not accept heresay as truth. Oh wait we do that, just not when it comes tyo faith.

 

I am not sure I follow you here?

 

Or maybe I have something to offer them? freedom?

Sure

 

Some Guy

Hello! I find it very, very interesting how you can be right about the basic things you say. There is no need to talk to some-one who agrees with every thing that as was said before, "When you know the whole story, the story is over"! To many people are still trying to do two things at once, claim that they believe, yet do everything else contrary to the beliefe. I find more comfort in a person's opinion as yourself than a hippocrate who has no real intention of change, if a truth or even an agreement is reached,(sorry I had to get that off my chest) .. I am challenged daily but since my opinion of the presence of "GOD" is infact real, my whole life is different. My own tribal opinions are greater enhanced and understood for the point made not the atomic value of its photons. I received separate e-mails putting me down, real bad, just because we discuss with an open, public voice. I can only offer alternative avenues to visit, you offer a staunch reality check. As we go along our path may ultimately cross, meet, or run parrell. I did not add much to our original questions today, I am angry at some of the other responses who are GOD's witness. I would they would have talked to you or maybe they have?

 

DORSEY

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Too bad crazy lady got herself banned. Guess scientists can be just as intolerant as bible-thumpers.

 

Yes.

 

Don't go getting banned yourself you Crazy Lady!

I would miss your emotionless responses too much. :eswirl: :estrange:

 

Crazy lady is Shirley Phelps Roper, Someguy.

look for El Es Tea's thread here in Theology.

 

Millard Alexander Dorsey >>> Banned

Shirly Phelps Roper >>> Banned

 

I am telling you! Do not use your middle name! :confused:

It's not a good thing.

:edizzy:

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Too bad crazy lady got herself banned. Guess scientists can be just as intolerant as bible-thumpers.
No one gets banned around here for their beliefs. People do get banned for uncivil behavior. A word to the wise: do not do or say things to people that you would not do in front of your mother or a police officer.

 

I believe in Karma,

Buffy

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Don't go getting banned yourself you Crazy Lady!

I would miss your emotionless responses too much. :) :naughty:

 

Crazy lady is Shirley Phelps Roper, Someguy.

look for El Es Tea's thread here in Theology.

 

Millard Alexander Dorsey >>> Banned

Shirly Phelps Roper >>> Banned

 

I am telling you! Do not use your middle name! :confused:

It's not a good thing.

:)

What happend to Dorsey, or rather what did he do to get banned?

 

Saitia, where did you go?

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SGuy,

 

Thanks again for your continued interest in the thread. A few comments on your last questions.

I agree of course that religion doesn't own morals; a person can certainly be moral without being religious. "Moral" consciousness is just a name applied to the awareness of values, which a sense of duty demands we abide by in our day-to-day personal conduct. But enlightened spiritual consciousness is not concerned so much with some specific intellectual belief ( there's a hell, or the fall of man, for instance) or with any one particular mode of living, as it is with discovering the truth of living— the good and right way of reacting to the ever-recurring situations of our existence. Because God is Truth, its manifestation in reality may encourage morals and ethics to climb much higher than a morality based simply on the sense of duty.

 

Ideas about God can come from anywhere, or anyone. "Incorrect sources" which you appear to rely on as evidence for impeachment of religion, cannot invalidate spiritual experience. I understand that you do not allow for the reality of spirit outside of the intellect, but it doesn't change the reality of spirit, or spiritual experience, for those who have experienced it.

 

Since you insist your idea of faith is suspension of judgment "no matter how many times I deny it," let's take a look at what that means if what you say is true. Everyone who chooses to exercise faith does so at the peril of— what, exactly? Forgetting or ignoring what they hold to be scientifically true? and regarding what, exactly?— one of science's many theories about how the universe began? Science's theories about what consciousness is? Science's theories about what life is? Or maybe just being wrong? Those who actually do suspend some important aspect of judgment are in no more philosophical peril than you are as an atheist, if you were to suspend belief in a number of scientific theories that haven't been proven.

 

You say that science is "objective" because "everyone is privy to the experiments." You're missing the point entirely that a particular subjective scientist or several even, are interpreting their results the best way they know how, but it is perforce subjective regardless of their good intentions; that's the nature of the beast— self-consciousness— and that's why scientists—science— keeps having to correct its "objective" understanding; not just because new information becomes available.

 

And that's all well and good. Some of these scientists you mention also know they have a soul, even though the only evidence they have for it is their own personal experience of it, which if pressed, I suspect would result in most saying something to the effect that they are more certain about its reality than the "certainty" their experiments provide with the material realm.

 

Apparently you see everything as "equal in its reality to anything else that is real." Despite the metaphorical nonsensicalness of saying we give "authority to our eyes" and the "eyes of others" and that we can verify our own reality by "looking into a mirror," let's assume for the moment you mean the personality of the one doing the looking thinks that's the scientific bar of proof; but just how does it prove you are real? What "authority" is it you claim to give your eyes, and where does that authority come from? Hopefully you're starting to see the reality of your own faith-based assumptions. :circle:

 

I'm at a loss to even begin to understand the "science" that most certainly must lie underneath your belief that everything is "equally real," since you require concrete proof before you accept anything as fact or truth. Do share that, won't you? For instance, is your love of your mother— you sent flowers on Mother's Day, I hope;) — equally and concretely as real as the current estimated speed of light from the most distant galaxy discovered? If yes, how exactly is your love scientifically "provable"?

 

You say there is no proof of the soul, but every morally conscious mortal should know of the existence of his soul as a real and actual personal experience, if they look carefully an honestly at their impulses— and actions— to be moral.

 

The "mirror-test of reality" you've proposed is somewhat different than the mirror test an anthropologist might use to show a being recognizes self, thereby demonstrating self-consciousness, but that doesn't prove "self" is anything but a physicality; it certainly doesn't prove the reality of consciousness is ultimately valid and therefore claims about the world that flow from that consciousness are real too.

 

But you obfuscate when you say "toast in grey channels flows west" is "equal" to "Energy is thing, mind is meaning, spirit is value." That kind of balonium is truly beneath you, isn't it? If you're truly looking for the meaning of life you'll have to stop playing clever games long enough to do some serious work. Otherwise you're simply wasting your time.

 

You say that life, matter, and motion are "verifiable" as real. I say almost all human minds ASSUME the reality of these things. I say your life, like everyone else's, is wholly transient, that nature does not afford any ground for logical belief in human-personality. In fact, science is more or less clueless about personality. If you have verifiable proof from science that life is verifiably real, bring it. ;)

 

It's interesting you think the majority of the world disagrees with me, "period." As if the majority must know the truth? In fact, the majority of the world's population believe more as I do; i.e., in the divine; only 16% of the world's population are considered non-religious, i.e., secular, nonreligious, agnostic, atheist. Only about 13% of Americans identify themselves as nonreligious. (Perhaps you live in Sweden, where 46% of them identify themselves as atheists, and a whopping 85% are nonbelievers.)

 

You asked if I could prove the "usefulness of religion in the opposite." (The opposite of it's usefulness as a source of "atrocity.") Apparently most sentient beings find some personal usefulness of religion in the opposite, considering statistics that show 84% are religious by choice. It's quite provable that were it not for the continuous nurturing of true morals (not the politicized morality of the religious right) by religionists, the world would be in far worse shape than it is. Religion has always been a conservator of morals and a stabilizer of society, despite all the hyperbole about the crusades, etc.

 

But since you're concerned with the "atrocity" of religion, let's not overlook the "atrocity" secular culture provided the human race in the twentieth century. The second world war alone ended FIFTY MILLION LIVES. All of the crusades, inquisitions, witch burnings, etc., together accounted for maybe 2—3 million— and even that number is hotly debated. I get your point, religionists kill, and are willing to get killed for their beliefs. But the truth is they don't hold a candle to what secularists are willing to do— and have done— when it comes to killing.

 

Btw, the 20th century was the first in history in which explicitly atheist political movements came to power. (Communism.) How did these atheists conduct themselves? By murdering as many as 100 million people in less than 100 years. (http://www.gulag.hu/jacoby.htm) And let's not overlook the fact many were killed for simply believing in God.

 

You asked what would be wrong with saying there is an afterlife without God. Nothing's wrong with saying it. But it's like asking, "Why can't we gather fruit without fruit trees?

 

Well jeez this looks too long again already. Who'd a thought we had so much to talk about?:friday:

I'm afraid my time to jabber is going to be fairly limited for the next several weeks, and I'm really wanting to get involved in a few other threads— my bad— so let's wind this down to burning questions only okay?

 

Cheers,

—Saitia

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A word to the wise: do not do or say things to people that you would not do in front of your mother or a police officer.

 

I believe in Karma,

Buffy

Amen sister!

 

Jehovah is with you, while ye are with him
[doing what is right]
; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you.”

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