Asian Philosophy is Eloquent

[Turtle]

The more people disagree with you, the more is needed to reconcile your belief set with his. That you can use small responses to successfully address such differences in opinion is fallacious.

 

Rather, such statements are designed to feel empowering to the people who ALREADY agree with you such that they might be more likely to attempt to physically stop those with opposing beliefs rather than try and understand them. As such it encourages disagreement, and consequently violence.

 

Ironic that this is one of your shortest posts and yet you come nearer to having meaningful content than elsewhere. I get the impression you have not read the entire thread, else you would know I share some of your view in regard to Lao Tze.

 

Elsewhere, you put forward in a discussion with Coberst the comment that it is fallacious to discard 90% of some discourse merely on the ground that 10% is false. I suggest the same applies here.

http://www.chinapage.com/gnl.html

:)

[Kriminal99]

17. Rulers

The best rulers are scarcely known by their subjects;

The next best are loved and praised;

The next are feared;

The next despised:

They have no faith in their people,

And their people become unfaithful to them.

 

When the best rulers achieve their purpose

Their subjects claim the achievement as their own.

 

Ok you win that one - this is awesome.

 

But all in all, I just don't understand this type of thing. I mean any argument can be put in such a form to make it seem somehow profound. It takes up more time to decipher what is being said and makes evaluating the argument less efficient. Of course this benefits the maker since it is harder to challenge his claims, but everyone else suffers for it.

 

It is true that a balance must be struck for as Hemmingway put it in order to capture the attention of a reader one must imply icebergs by only showing their tips so the reader is given something to think about. Unfortunately this can be a mutually exclusive goal with precisely addressing differences in beliefs.

 

PS, it is a function of you how much meaning any given post of mine has, in addition to being a function of anything else.

[Turtle]

99;146612]Ok you win that one - this is awesome.

In the spirit of eloquence without regard to culture, when I win, everyone wins. :)

 

But all in all, I just don't understand this type of thing. I mean any argument can be put in such a form to make it seem somehow profound. It takes up more time to decipher what is being said and makes evaluating the argument less efficient. Of course this benefits the maker since it is harder to challenge his claims, but everyone else suffers for it.

Herin lies one of the elements that distinguishes Asian philosophy from Western. Moreover, one must have familiarity with both in order to make the comparisson, and your willingness to read further to acquire that familiarity is exactly what I wished to engender; well done.

 

In order to form up an acceptable ratio of crap > truth (in any expository work), we simply have to read the entire work and keep a running tally. Since we presumably are concerned with improving our knowledge, and if we equate knowledge with gold, then we may come to the old miners' adage, 'gold is where you find it'. The point is, the better one knows how to look for gold, the more likely they are to stumble on it. I think Lao Tzu is mostly dross, but that distinction falls from the smelting and even pot metal has its uses. B)

 

It is true that a balance must be struck for as Hemmingway put it in order to capture the attention of a reader one must imply icebergs by only showing their tips so the reader is given something to think about. Unfortunately this can be a mutually exclusive goal with precisely addressing differences in beliefs.

Good point! We have barely touched on the stylistic techniques of Asian philosophical writers.

 

PS, it is a function of you how much meaning any given post of mine has, in addition to being a function of anything else.

 

As I tend to accord meaning to writing by considering all the connotations I know for all the words, it is fair to say I read much which is unintended or accidental. Be careful what you say, I may think you mean it.

 

Ironic as I write this that you have gone short and I long. :) Since I have interested you in some reading, I have another online work of Asian philosophy which I find has a rich vein.

Sonshi.com's Original Sun Tzu The Art of War Translation

:cup:

[InfiniteNow]

Wise is the one who realizes that there are no ills "out there" in the world. The wise understand that the individual creates their own world.

 

Racoon, this thread makes much less sense now that you've gone back and deleted so many of your posts. Why do you do that?

[Turtle]

Generally the one who first occupies the battlefield awaiting the enemy is at ease;

the one who comes later and rushes into battle is fatigued. Sun-Tzu

[Buffy]

Racoon, this thread makes much less sense now that you've gone back and deleted so many of your posts.

Actually--quite appropriately--it makes the whole thread kinda like a Zen Koan....

 

I am the only one who has not talked,

Buffy

[Racoon]

Racoon, this thread makes much less sense now that you've gone back and deleted so many of your posts. Why do you do that?

 

 

:rant:

[InfiniteNow]

If we are facing in the right direction, all we have to do is keep walking.

[maikeru]

Generally the one who first occupies the battlefield awaiting the enemy is at ease;

the one who comes later and rushes into battle is fatigued. Sun-Tzu ;)

 

This reminded me a lot of the chess games I used to play in tournaments during high school. I think it's true. :)

 

It would be also important to keep in mind that many of the Asian writers and philosophers we have access to now were not so accessible during ancient times. According to the introduction of my copy of The Art of War, Sun Tzu's work was designed to be memorized and passed on from teacher to disciple orally. Hence the pithiness of his phrases and wisdom. And those who had access to it were a limited few. (I have the Ralph Sawyer translation and annotated version.) On the other hand, it would take a prodigy to memorize something as large and complex as the Mahabharata or Epic of King Gesar. (And in these cases, they are not memorized word for word, but rather scene for scene, essence for essence, to maintain the spirit of the work.)

 

I wonder if many English versions may suffer from translation-itis; that is, when translated, much of the flavor and meaning of the original is lost in translation.

[Turtle]

Generally the one who first occupies the battlefield awaiting the enemy is at ease;

the one who comes later and rushes into battle is fatigued. Sun-Tzu

This reminded me a lot of the chess games I used to play in tournaments during high school. I think it's true. :)

 

...

I wonder if many English versions may suffer from translation-itis; that is, when translated, much of the flavor and meaning of the original is lost in translation.

 

in effect, all translations 'suffer' the effort. given that you think what i quoted is true, the suffering couldn't have been too bad.

 

i can't remember what translation i had in hardcover, but here is the online source i have been using for the quotes. Sonshi.com's Original Sun Tzu The Art of War Translation

A general who listens to my calculations, and uses them, will surely be victorious, keep him. - Sun-Tzu

[InfiniteNow]

i can't remember what translation i had in hardcover, but here is the online source i have been using for the quotes. Ernest Beckers The Birth and Death of Meaning

I think perhaps the link you pasted was in error, resulting from a remnant on your clipboard from a response you made to another thread shortly before this one.

 

Are you really getting your Low Shoe quotes from Beckers Philosophy in the Flesh? ... Erm... Birth and Death of Meaning? :)

 

 

:eek::)

[Turtle]

I think perhaps the link you pasted was in error, resulting from a remnant on your clipboard from a response you made to another thread shortly before this one.

 

Are you really getting your Low Shoe quotes from Beckers Philosophy in the Flesh? ... Erm... Birth and Death of Meaning? :)

 

 

:):)

 

erm...yes; link is in error. interesting context however. :eek: here's the proper reference. >> Sonshi.com's Original Sun Tzu The Art of War Translation

[Racoon]

A person who is said to be proficient at the arts is like a fool. Because of his foolishness in concerning himself with just one thing; he thinks nothing else and thus becomes proficient. He is a worthless person.

 

___ Hagakure Book of the Samurai

[Turtle]

According to the three modes of material nature and the work associated with them, the four divisions of human society are created by Me. And although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the nondoer, being unchangeable.

 

There is no work that affects Me; nor do I aspire for the fruits of action. One who understands this truth about Me also does not become entangled in the fruitive reactions of work.

 

Śrī Kṛṣṇa - Bhagavad-gītā

[maikeru]

A person who is said to be proficient at the arts is like a fool. Because of his foolishness in concerning himself with just one thing; he thinks nothing else and thus becomes proficient. He is a worthless person.

 

___ Hagakure Book of the Samurai

 

IMO, the above quote shows a great deal of short-sightedness on the part of Tsunetomo. If a man who masters one art is a fool, then a man who masters none is worse. There's something to be said for over-specialization and the tunnel-vision it creates, but to dismiss the person and his experience and detailed knowledge in that area is equally foolish.

 

Remember that Hagakure was written after the samurai were more bureaucrats and less warriors, and controlled and pacified through an officially sanctioned "bushido" which the shogunate approved. Prior to that time, there was really no such thing as bushido. The closest one could've come to bushido would've been various "house codes" of the greater and lesser clans and flourishes on the popular imagination in literature and plays derived from The Heike Monogatari.

[Racoon]

" In China there was once a man who liked pictures of Dragons, and his clothing and furnishings were all designed accordingly. His deep affection for dragons was brought to the attention of the Dragon God, and one day a real dragon appeared before hs window. It was said he died of fright. He was probably a man who always spoke big words but acted differently when facing the real thing.."

 

__ Hagakure the Book of the Samurai

[Michaelangelica]

This reminded me a lot of the chess games I used to play in tournaments during high school. I think it's true. :(

What ever happened to

"The best form of defense is attack" (Karl von Clausewitz- I love google it makes me look like I've got a memory:))-)

A time honored chess strategy very popular with Germanic races it seems

"Strength lies not in defense but in attack."

- Adolf Hitler

 

Of course I better give an Asian Quote or be accused of being off-topic:)

In all fighting, the direct method may be used for joining battle,

but indirect methods will be needed in order to secure victory.

In battle, there are not more than two methods of attack - the direct and the indirect; yet these two in combination give rise to an endless series of maneuvers.

The direct and the indirect lead on to each other in turn.

It is like moving in a circle - you never come to an end. Who can exhaust the possibilities of their combination?

-Sun Tzu

 

(Far more devious than old Hitler and poor von Clausewitz)

military quotes