Gay-to-straight therapy repudiated

[Larv]

Infinite, I couldn't find the part in the OP article that says ALL gay-to-straight therapies are useless and harmful. Please help me out here.

[Boerseun]

Larv, dude - where do you get off with the 12-year old only having a chance of being "normal" if he gets "gay-to-straight" therapy?

 

And what's with your obsession with homosexuality, in any case?

 

I think the gentleman doth protest too much...

 

You got something you wanna tell us?

[pamela]

really larv, this is getting tedious...

 

So let me get this straight (no pun intended). If a 12-year-old boy who discovers his homosexual tendencies and wants not to be a homosexual goes to a psychologist for help, then he should not be allowed to have any treatments to reverse his tendencies. Is that it? Is that what we call freedom in the modern world? Should he be forced to just accept his tendencies and get on with his life as a gay person?

why would he not want to be who he is? that should be addressed first and foremost.Suppression of who we are can only lead to more problems down the road.Why do you not see this larv? FORCED??? he/she should do what is natural and get on with their lives as a PERSON

 

These things are not always clear cut, you know. My opinion is that only extreme bigotry on the part of homosexuals would prevent such a boy from seeking gay-to-straight therapy

.well that is simply your opinion.

 

InfiniteNow is wrong when he says that all gay-to-straight therapies are bogus and cause harm. No one had proven that to be true, not even the APA

.So are you saying that changing a person from who they are naturally is a good thing? have you ever even talked with anyone who has gone thru this and years down the road were miserable? I HAVE.. its heartbreaking...Suppressing the individual is heinous

Would the gay community wish to deprive this 12-year-old boy of his personal choices? From what I can tell by some postings on this thread the answer is yes. Well, that means only one thing: some posters here are blinded by their own irrational biases on the matter

.your conjecture only... How about this- would the COMMUNITY want each individual to aspire to be all they can be despite some twisted concept of what is natural or right

 

Let's give this 12-year-old boy a chance to have a normal life, if possible. After all, the LGBT people have done enough complaining about their miserable lot that you'd think they'd want this boy to have a chance for a better life.

ugh........... please do not impose your narrow view of normality here, much less what you deem better.

[pamela]

I stopped a black man on the street this morning and asked him if he is black in the same way a gay person is gay. I was lucky to escape with my coffee and Danish before he whipped out his Luger

larva

1. Entomology. the immature, wingless, feeding stage of an insect that undergoes complete metamorphosis.

2. any animal in an analogous immature form

careful larv, your bigotry is showing again and your racist inuendo is rather offensive as well

lets hope that as you mature your metamorphosis will be that of one who is accepting and even loving of all of humankind:)

[Larv]

ugh........... please do not impose your narrow view of normality here, much less what you deem better.

pamela, what you and others of your persuasion are telling me is that I am not reverent to the gay cause. What you all are saying is that I must treat gay-ness with reverence, not just respect, but with reverence. But, pam, I don’t even treat God and the Laws of Gravity with reverence. Indeed I don’t even treat myself with reverence. I’d prefer to find the humor in it all and laugh about it. And there’s plenty of opportunities for irreverent humor here on this thread.

 

What you and others have proven over these many threads about gay activity is that gays are insecure about their dignity. I would like to dignify them by accepting them into my realm of good humor. I have black friends and we often joke about the difference between the black race and the white race. I tell my black friends that they have to use the bathroom sink if they need a drink of water. I tell my physicist friends that the Laws of Gravity don’t have a leg to stand on. And I tell my female friends they need to check their menopauses at the door. I’m real popular with all my friends.

 

Please bear in mind that I am an untheist liberal ex-hippie who is friendly and protective to the gay community. I fully support Washington’s legalization of domestic partnerships for gays and lesbians. I don’t ever want to see a gay or lesbian abused; indeed I want full rights for them and a harassment-free place for them to live. We in Seattle do well by offering them both.

 

But for posters here to say that a confused 12-year-old boy should NOT have every option available to him for making his life better is to say that these posters are viewing the situation with extreme bias toward the gay lifestyle.

 

And for that I must seek comic relief or otherwise go insane.

[pamela]

well Larv, i like humour as much as the next guy and hence my larval reference to you.

What you and others have proven over these many threads about gay activity is that gays are insecure about their dignity. I would like to dignify them by accepting them into my realm of good humor. I have black friends and we often joke about the difference between the black race and the white race. I tell my black friends that they have to use the bathroom sink if they need a drink of water. I tell my physicist friends that the Laws of Gravity don’t have a leg to stand on. And I tell my female friends they need to check their menopauses at the door. I’m real popular with all my friends

I do not see where we have proven this.i do see however, that people would like to draw the lines of what they deem right.This is not fair when looking at an individual, each different with their own set of needs and concerns. Glad your friends can appreciate that humour larv, but if you crack a menopausal joke around me, i will certainly not hold back any hormones as i clock you;)

Please bear in mind that I am an untheist liberal ex-hippie who is friendly and protective to the gay community. I fully support Washington’s legalization of domestic partnerships for gays and lesbians. I don’t ever want to see a gay or lesbian abused; indeed I want full rights for them and a harassment-free place for them to live. We in Seattle do well by offering them both

well thats cool, larv....can you look at it this way? you want equal rights and no abuse or harrassment towards anyone.

see the difference? do not segregate homosexual or non or the variances that lie in between-people are people..plain and simple

 

But for posters here to say that a confused 12-year-old boy should NOT have every option available to him for making his life better is to say that these posters are viewing the situation with extreme bias toward the gay lifestyle

no one is against therapy to help the boy, just the type of therapy that has been suggested. Which of course would inhibit him from realizing the wonder of who he is and how to go forward in life expressing himself in those ways that are natural to him

[Larv]

no one is against therapy to help the boy, just the type of therapy that has been suggested. Which of course would inhibit him from realizing the wonder of who he is and how to go forward in life expressing himself in those ways that are natural to him.

It is not always that clear cut, pam, for a confused 12-year-old boy. I’m sure psychologists and aware that 12-year-old boys can think or do just about anything. It would be wrong if the only thing the APA encourages for such a boy is therapy to help him adjust to his alleged gay-ness. I can easily imagine such a boy who is perhaps not really gay but instead just confused by some gay-oriented peer pressure he is experiencing.

[pamela]

larv, helping a child to be who they are is clear cut, the methodologies may not be.;)

A boy of 12 is insecure about many things, mine just turned 13.Like girls/hate girls, like boys/hate boys ,like self/hate self.It is truly a difficult time emotionally and physically for their ever changing body. Sexuality is often not clear cut nor the expressions there of.For example at this age a boy may seem to be in love with his mother.He may hug his friends after a ball game showing love and affection. He make sneak a kiss from the girl next door under a tree. All these things can occur during the same frame of reference.This is age 12 and alot of emotional things are going on.Any parent and i would hope any psychologist would know and understand these things.Taking the time to listen to the child, and allowing the child to see and express those thoughts, feelings and attractions, will help the child to define for themselves who they are.

[Larv]

larv, helping a child to be who they are is clear cut, the methodologies may not be.;)

A boy of 12 is insecure about many things, mine just turned 13.Like girls/hate girls, like boys/hate boys ,like self/hate self.It is truly a difficult time emotionally and physically for their ever changing body. Sexuality is often not clear cut nor the expressions there of.For example at this age a boy may seem to be in love with his mother.He may hug his friends after a ball game showing love and affection. He make sneak a kiss from the girl next door under a tree. All these things can occur during the same frame of reference.This is age 12 and alot of emotional things are going on.Any parent and i would hope any psychologist would know and understand these things.Taking the time to listen to the child, and allowing the child to see and express those thoughts, feelings and attractions, will help the child to define for themselves who they are.

I’m fine with all of that, pamela. But it evades the question: Should the APA limit the choices of a confused 12-year-old boy if he is unsure which sexual orientation is right for him? Maybe he’s gay, maybe he isn’t. Should he have only one kind of therapy available to him if he is uncertain about his sexuality? What if he is actually heterosexual but just confused about it? I could see situations where the APA would encourage “gay acceptance” therapy over gay-to-straight therapy, when in fact the former would do more harm than the latter. Couldn’t you?

[freeztar]

I've been following along with interest, but I fear that a certain trend has grown rampant.

 

It would encourage discussion (and even debate) if everyone would stop pointing fingers, imho.

 

What anyone states here is in plain writing. Argue those points.

If someone seems to be dissembling, then call them out on their points. Don't make it a personal issue.

 

In other words, ignore who said what and concentrate on the overarching theme.

 

Just my 2 cents...:shrug:

[InfiniteNow]

I’m fine with all of that, pamela. But it evades the question: Should the APA limit the choices of a confused 12-year-old boy if he is unsure which sexual orientation is right for him?

 

This has nothing to do with limiting choices, and everything to do with focusing on treatment options which work and are beneficial to the patients well-being... recognizing that some therapeutic outcomes are incredibly unlikely to be successful and sometimes even harmful.

 

As has been stated... time and time and time again in this thread... One of those options which is unlikely to be successful and potentially harmful to the patient is the attempt to change their sexual preferences through therapy.

[Turtle]

I've been following along with interest, but I fear that a certain trend has grown rampant.

 

It would encourage discussion (and even debate) if everyone would stop pointing fingers, imho.

 

What anyone states here is in plain writing. Argue those points.

If someone seems to be dissembling, then call them out on their points. Don't make it a personal issue.

 

In other words, ignore who said what and concentrate on the overarching theme.

 

Just my 2 cents...:shrug:

 

well, calling out is pointing a finger, and i'm on it in case you didn't notice.:( :D the overarching theme is whether anti-gay attitudes are from bigotry or reason. this is a forum and frankly if we ignore what is said there is nothing left.

 

i note that when i discuss plants or bugs with cedars for example, we exchange links, make observations, discuss them in relation to what we can find recorded in academia, and then draw agreeable conclusions on our observations. here however on this topic, cedars has ceased to provide links and discounted social science as suspect. well all those biology records go to determine endangered species assessments etcetera and those determinations use the exact same suite of statistical methods that social sciences use. :) why should statistical analysis be valid in one case and not the other? in short, it shouldn't. shorter still, it's not.

 

saying i wouldn't want my kid to be gay and all the variations we have seen is a gut reaction. the bone in the throat, the gnawing in the gut, and other such colorful phrases i have used to describe it. enter then my submitted link and a clinically defined term for my colloquialisms; "visceral bigotry".

 

visceral - definition of visceral by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

visceral

Adjective

1. of or affecting the viscera

2. instinctive rather than rational

 

i have another review of the work using the term "visceral bigotry". here's a quote that seems fitting and the link to the full article. if you don't read it, you logically can't rebut it. ;)

 

Mike W. Martin - From Morality to Mental Health: Virtue and Vice in a Therapeutic Culture - Reviewed by Judith Andre, Michigan State University - Philosophical Reviews - University of Notre Dame

One motivation for calling destructive behavior patterns diseases is to free people from paralyzing guilt. Martin argues that self-righteous or destructive blame is objectionable not just therapeutically but morally as well' date=' and that blame, if it is compassionate and judicious, can help one make sense of the world and find peace within it. Therapists recognize that it is important to find the ways, however minor, in which the patient contributed to her own illness, because those areas are subject to her control, and so are fruitful areas for hope and healing. Finding those areas can be done constructively rather than judgmentally. ...[/quote']

[freeztar]

well, calling out is pointing a finger, and i'm on it in case you didn't notice.:shrug: :) the overarching theme is whether anti-gay attitudes are from bigotry or reason. this is a forum and frankly if we ignore what is said there is nothing left.

 

Ignore?

 

;)

 

I think the point was a miss.

[TheBigDog]

There is a gap between "will not work" (absolute) and "unlikely to work" (not absolute). Those who are arguing in favor of the APA report are using those two phrases interchangeably. Those questioning the report are noting that there is a gap and trying to account for the people who might fall into that gap. That is the height of inquisitive reason, not instinctive bigotry.

 

Bill

[pamela]

there is also a gap between those who perceive homosexuality to be a problem that needs to be fixed and those who accept it as being natural

[freeztar]

there is also a gap between those who perceive homosexuality to be a problem that needs to be fixed and those who accept it as being natural

 

I agree.

 

As a Science Forum, we have to respect scientific studies over opinion. Opinion can inform, but it is not the judge and juror. Results speak for themselves.

 

Therapy is good. SOCE therapy has been deemed inadequate by the APA. This does not mean that therapy for such things is off limits.

 

I'm a bit befuddled at the mo. :shrug:

 

Jul 19, 2005 | Barry Levy, a Christian counselor and licensed clinical social worker, is explaining to me what causes homosexuality. "Take the young boy who is more sensitive, more delicate, who doesn't like rough-and-tumble, who is artistic," he says. "He can't hit the ball, fire the gun or shoot an arrow. There is a high correlation between poor eye-hand coordination and same-sex attraction."

 

I am sitting in an overstuffed chair in Levy's office in suburban Rockville, Md. The metal blinds are mostly shut. Tissues are at hand on a small coffee table. Levy is a middle-aged white man with a gentle voice. He wears a button-down Oxford shirt and pleated khakis hiked a bit too high. He stares at me serenely across the beige carpet, his legs crossed, giving me a warm smile.

 

I was referred to Levy by the conservative Christian group Focus on the Family, which claims on its Web site that homosexuality can be treated and prevented. "While the Bible clearly states that homosexuality runs contrary to God's plan for relationships, those who struggle with homosexual feelings are still God's children, in need of His forgiveness and healing," the group states. Conservative Christians say curing gays comes from loving them. "Compassion -- not bigotry -- compels us to support the healing of homosexuals," says the Family Research Council.

...

My gay therapy session - Salon.com

 

Is it that absurd that the APA stands against this? I thought this argument would die a short death, but interpretation prevails, it seems. :)

[TheBigDog]

Nobody here has denied that it is natural. It is difficult to argue that genetics play a role in a person's gender. Yet we allow therapy to change gender. Why? Why is gender reassignment an accepted therapy and gay to straight taboo? If a person feels like a "man trapped in a woman's body" then we help them become a man. If a person feels like a "heterosexual trapped in a homosexual life" we tell them... just accept who you are, we will help you accept who you are.

 

I think that key to the debate is the term "normal". Society has definitions for this that decide the bounds of our laws. Individuals also decide for themselves if they are "normal" and to do the things they feel they need to to conform with that standard or to rebel from it. Because something is "natural" does not mean that it is "normal". My son has autism, this is natural, but it is not normal. Even with his autism he is normal in many other regards. Height, weight, intelligence, education. But he is decidedly odd when it comes to social interactions and very few who spend time with him would call him normal, although he is not unpleasant. About 1 in 150 kids have some form of autism, and that is why it is not normal. There is no reasonable expectation that your child will have the condition. If a person thought that 1 in 150 was a reasonable expectation then they might call autism normal, I do not.

 

Homosexuality from what I read is something less than 1 in 20, but we can use that number as a reference. Is it OK to call something that happens 19 out of 20 times normal? The 1 in 20 is natural, but is it a normal result statistically? It has been asked "how do we know that anyone will be heterosexual", well we know that 19 out of 20 are. So I would wager that direction on any individual. I would, others may not. I am not rejecting the other 5%, I am simply looking at what the reasonable expectation is. If I refer to that reasonable expectation as normal then I do. But like my son, it is just one measure of the person, and is not a judgment of them. Discussion of the normalcy of homosexuality does not explicitly or implicitly expose those who say it is "not normal" as bigoted. It is just examination of the facts and using our available language to make sense of it.

 

I would also like to remind everyone that there are genes that have been found to correlate to homosexuality, but there is no "gay gene". There are people with the markers who are both gay and straight, there are people without the markers who are both gay and straight; in fact I don't believe there is more than a 50% correlation found to date, so much of what determines sexual identity is still unknown, and saying that it is absolutely an inborn trait is still no more than theory. It may be a trait that develops very early, but there is nothing that conclusively points to a firm genetic link to homosexuality. I am not dissing homosexuals by saying this, I am stating it as it is.

 

Bill