Gay-to-straight therapy repudiated

[TheBigDog]

HUH? you used the term universal first bill. now you denounce it? which is it bill? you continually imply some sort of gay conspiracy is after something you think is yours/heterosexuals exclusively.

 

like a damn slave revolt. how dare they step out of their place. :)

 

your experience is both flawed and immaterial as a scientific source. i recall you self-identified as a "fixer" in your blog or some-such here and i submit this is more of the same. you still have offered no scientifc information of any kind in support of your assertions and in fact the most current scientific information has been offered in the opening post of this thread & counters your "opinion".

 

to quote pink floyd, teacher leave those kids alone.

 

PS no i didn't give a link in this post. it is a non-sequitor to conclude i implied that i add a link to every post i make, simply because i pointed out i had added links when those arguing against me have provided far fewer to no links.

I have to laugh a bit Turtle, because I don't think that we disagree on what is right or wrong, but on the politics and the language being used. I will think of how I can clearly communicate this, but I am losing hope that what I write will be more than parsed into unrecognizable disjointed fragments of what I am communicating. I will try to do better.

 

Bill

[Turtle]

I would caution against relying upon the Kinsey numbers. Some of the 100% populations mentioned in the report you linked were prison populations where the subjects being questioned had not had access to the opposite sex for some period of time, and where the only sexual outlet was masturbation or homosexuality.

 

Sociology: A Down-to-Earth Approach -- The Sociology of Human Sexuality

 

Bill

 

the first graph at your link says source Criminal Justice Statistics. didn't you just decry that population as a source?

 

Sociology: A Down-to-Earth Approach -- The Sociology of Human Sexuality

 

the second popup seems to be instructions on how to spot gays.

 

http://www.ablongman.com/html/henslintour/henslinchapter/us.html

 

no bill, we do not agree.

[Larv]

I wouldn’t want my kid to be gay.

It's comments like this which cause people to suggest you're displaying the tendencies of a bigot, Cedars.

Here, friends, is a perfect case in point. Infinite is accusing Cedars of bigotry for expressing an honest opinion about what she(?) desires for her children. A stupid comment like InfiniteNow's deserves the highest level of repudiation. Bigotry, indeed!

[CraigD]

I would caution against relying upon the Kinsey numbers. Some of the 100% populations mentioned in the report you linked were prison populations where the subjects being questioned had not had access to the opposite sex for some period of time, and where the only sexual outlet was masturbation or homosexuality.

 

Sociology: A Down-to-Earth Approach -- The Sociology of Human Sexuality

 

Bill

the first graph at your link says source Criminal Justice Statistics. didn't you just decry that population as a source?

Despite it’s somewhat misleading title, the US DOJ’s Sourcebook of Criminal Justice Statistics is a good-quality, free-to-the-public source of statistics of many kinds of data “about many aspects of criminal justice in the United States”, including surveys of public attitude toward “criminal justice-related topics”. Henslin’s Sociology: A Down-to-Earth Approach (edition 8) cites a 1997 version of it’s “Attitudes toward the legality of homosexual relations” table in support of his statement

In recent years, Americans have become more tolerant of homosexuality, but their attitudes are still largely negative. Despite the efforts of gay action groups to change laws, private, consensual sex between people of the same sex remains illegal in most states. As Table HS.1 shows, most Americans want it this way.

It’s noteworthy that, according to these statistics, “most Americans want it this way” was arguably true in 1997 (47% answer the question “"Do you think gay or lesbian relations between consenting adults should or should not be legal?"” “should not be legal”, vs. 44% “should be legal” and 9% “don’t know/refused”), but not two years later, and not now. The 2009 version of the table shows that currently 56% of Americans answer the question “should be legal”, vs. 40% “should not” and 4% “don’t know/refused”. This table shows the statistic for select years 1977-2009.

 

It’s also noteworthy for some respondent demographics, the majority continue to respond “should not be legal”. These demographics are:

Age: 65 years and older: 41% / 51% / 8%

Education: High school graduate or less: 43% / 52% / 4%

Income: Under $20,000: 48% / 51% / 2%

Region: South: 44% / 51% / 5%

Politics: Republican: 41% / 56% / 3%

Ideology: Conservative: 39% / 57% / 4%

 

As the referenced edition of Henslin’s book was published after 2004, I consider its use of the 1997 DOJ statistic out-of-date.

 

Finally, I think it’s important to note that public attitude statistics are only slightly related to this threads topic, the recent APA statement concerning “conversion therapy”. Perhaps we should move it to a separate thread?

[InfiniteNow]

Here, friends, is a perfect case in point. Infinite is accusing Cedars of bigotry for expressing an honest opinion about what she(?) desires for her children. A stupid comment like InfiniteNow's deserves the highest level of repudiation. Bigotry, indeed!

 

Larv, besides the fact that you have chosen again to use a personal attack to make your point, you also appear to be demonstrating a critical comprehension failure as evidenced by the way you've represented my words.

 

I accused Cedars of nothing in the post you quoted. The comment was not "stupid" in the least, and I find it strange that you think I am deserving of repudiation and being a bigot for stating this:

 

It's comments like this which cause people to suggest you're displaying the tendencies of a bigot, Cedars.

 

 

 

I note that you still have failed to address practically every question put to you in this thread, have still provided zero references in support of your position, and yet you still manage to find time to lash out, load the thread with vitriol and invective, and misrepresent the position of others. Oh well... You've shown your colors time and again on this issue. ;)

[Cedars]

why not? grandchildren? adopt... if my boys are gay that is fine, it does not change how i feel. I want them to grow up to be the best possible persons that they can be

there is no way to interpret that except that you have an intuitive feeling that gay is bad. put whatever lipstick on the pig you care; it's still a pig.

Post # 65

I wouldnt want the struggle of being homosexual. I am GLAD I am not homosexual. I am glad I am not trans-sexual. I wouldnt want my kid to be homosexual. And I am glad I am not black. Its not about bias/bigotry against these groups, its a clear recognition that being one of/combination of these groups (minority/fringe/whatever) would add to the struggle to thrive/survive. Its not good for me, its not good for my kid.

 

Post # 88

"I wouldnt want my kid to be gay. I cant think of a single parent who hopes their kid will grow up to be a homosexual. I did know one couple who feared their 5 year old was going to be gay. Spent some time laughing at them, spent some time trying to reassure them his behaviors at that time were not an indication of sexuality. One thing for sure, at 24 hes not gay. Not wanting your kid to be gay is totally different than saying "if my kid is gay, I will reject them"."

 

Pam, you avoided the point and tried to manipulate what I said to represent something else. You did not say you ever wished your child would be gay or not. I believe, in an honest apprasial of what YOU would WANT your childs sexuality to be, it would be heterosexual, not homosexual. And I dont think it would be as simple (or selfish) as grandkids. Are you in denial of the reality of the human condition to promote a social agenda?

 

Turtle, whos pig is wearing lipstick?

 

As a parent, with an understanding of humans and the animals we really are, I know full well its not in my childs best interest (or mine) to be gay. One doesnt have to rely on 'intuitive' to come to that conclusion. That is the reality.

 

In the real world, ya know with people, its not Good to be Gay. Its a struggle of hiding your life (home/life partner) from other pieces of your life (work/religion/school/coaching/boy scouts/etc. because you dont know the reaction, overt or covert and the impact that will have on your status. Such as volunteering to help a community function. Reality is, if your a gay man, you cant be a scout leader. SCOTUS says so:

 

CNN.com - Supreme Court says Boy Scouts can bar gay troop leaders - June 28, 2000

 

And we dont have to rehash the military issue. dont ask, dont tell. Gays truely are safer if they keep it to themselves (in the military). Talk about being surrounded by a bunch of alpha males... more later.

[Larv]

Finally, I think it’s important to note that public attitude statistics are only slightly related to this threads topic, the recent APA statement concerning “conversion therapy”. Perhaps we should move it to a separate thread?

Craig, I opened this thead in an attempt to follow up on your suggestion.

[Cedars]

Finally, I think it’s important to note that public attitude statistics are only slightly related to this threads topic, the recent APA statement concerning “conversion therapy”. Perhaps we should move it to a separate thread?

 

Little late for that now. Flame war started 2 days ago.

[Turtle]

Post # 65

I wouldnt want the struggle of being homosexual. I am GLAD I am not homosexual.

 

Turtle, whose pig is wearing lipstick?

 

:) nobody owns the pig; it's feral.

 

you are projecting your fears. ;)

 

Psychological projection - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Psychological projection (or projection bias) is the unconscious act of denial of a person's own attributes, thoughts, and/or emotions, which are ascribed to the outside world, like the weather, the government, a tool or another person or people. Projection is the most profound and subtle of our psychological processes, and extremely difficult to work with, because by its nature, it is hidden. It is the fundamental mechanism by which we keep our selves uninformed about ourselves. Humor has great value in any attempt to work with projection, because humor presents a forgiving posture and thereby removes the threatening nature of any enquiry into the truth. ...

[InfiniteNow]

One thing which stands out to me in this recent exchange, and which disturbs me pretty deeply, is this.

 

 

Why is it that so many people would make the comment, "I hope my child would never be gay," instead of commenting, "I would hope my society is evolved and enlightened enough to accept my child even if they are not heterosexual."

 

 

I just can't wrap my head around that one. ;)

[modest]

Post # 65

I wouldnt want the struggle of being homosexual. I am GLAD I am not homosexual. I am glad I am not trans-sexual. I wouldnt want my kid to be homosexual. And I am glad I am not black. Its not about bias/bigotry against these groups, its a clear recognition that being one of/combination of these groups (minority/fringe/whatever) would add to the struggle to thrive/survive. Its not good for me, its not good for my kid.

 

Post # 88

"I wouldnt want my kid to be gay. I cant think of a single parent who hopes their kid will grow up to be a homosexual. I did know one couple who feared their 5 year old was going to be gay. Spent some time laughing at them, spent some time trying to reassure them his behaviors at that time were not an indication of sexuality. One thing for sure, at 24 hes not gay. Not wanting your kid to be gay is totally different than saying "if my kid is gay, I will reject them"."

 

Pam, you avoided the point and tried to manipulate what I said to represent something else. You did not say you ever wished your child would be gay or not. I believe, in an honest apprasial of what YOU would WANT your childs sexuality to be, it would be heterosexual, not homosexual. And I dont think it would be as simple (or selfish) as grandkids. Are you in denial of the reality of the human condition to promote a social agenda?

 

Turtle, whos pig is wearing lipstick?

 

As a parent, with an understanding of humans and the animals we really are, I know full well its not in my childs best interest (or mine) to be gay. One doesnt have to rely on 'intuitive' to come to that conclusion. That is the reality.

 

In the real world, ya know with people, its not Good to be Gay. Its a struggle of hiding your life (home/life partner) from other pieces of your life (work/religion/school/coaching/boy scouts/etc. because you dont know the reaction, overt or covert and the impact that will have on your status. Such as volunteering to help a community function. Reality is, if your a gay man, you cant be a scout leader. SCOTUS says so:

 

CNN.com - Supreme Court says Boy Scouts can bar gay troop leaders - June 28, 2000

 

And we dont have to rehash the military issue. dont ask, dont tell. Gays truely are safer if they keep it to themselves (in the military). Talk about being surrounded by a bunch of alpha males... more later.

 

Being homosexual presents certain difficulties. In particular, the world has in it bigoted people. Such people make the life of a gay person more difficult than it otherwise should be. As a direct result of this one might expect some gay people to have trouble accepting their own physiology. Hence the question of this thread. When a group of people are physiologically different from the majority and having psychological trouble because the majority doesn't accept them what is the best way to help them psychologically?

 

Does the psychologist lie to them and say "You're not normal, but we can fix you. We can make you heterosexual"? The answer seems so clear to me that I can't imagine why this thread is still dragging on.

 

~modest

[InfiniteNow]

In the real world, ya know with people, its not Good to be Gay. Its a struggle of hiding your life (home/life partner) from other pieces of your life (work/religion/school/coaching/boy scouts/etc. because you dont know the reaction, overt or covert and the impact that will have on your status. Such as volunteering to help a community function. Reality is, if your a gay man, you cant be a scout leader. SCOTUS says so:

CNN.com - Supreme Court says Boy Scouts can bar gay troop leaders - June 28, 2000

 

You have not accurately described the case. The SCOTUS did NOT state that gay men are not allowed to be scout leaders. That is plainly false, and totally misrepresentative.

 

What the SCOTUS did state/do is overturn a New Jersey Supreme Court ruling that the dismissal of a gay Scout leader had been illegal under the state's anti-discrimination law. They said that the Boy Scouts organization has the right to decide who can join its ranks, and that forcing it to accept gays would violate its constitutional right of freedom of association and free speech under the First Amendment.

 

That's all from your own link, btw.

[Larv]

Being homosexual presents certain difficulties. In particular, the world has in it bigoted people. Such people make the life of a gay person more difficult than it otherwise should be. As a direct result of this one might expect some gay people to have trouble accepting their own physiology. Hence the question of this thread. When a group of people are physiologically different from the majority and having psychological trouble because the majority doesn't accept them what is the best way to help them psychologically?

 

Does the psychologist lie to them and say "You're not normal, but we can fix you. We can make you heterosexual"? The answer seems so clear to me that I can't imagine why this thread is still dragging on.

Or should the psychologist say: “You’ are showing indications that your sexual orientation is not specifically heterosexual. Let me examine you thoroughly enough to determine just what your natural sexual orientation really is. There are many factors to consider, including the possibility that you are naturally heterosexual. As such, I will then treat you according to my professional opinion of the true nature of your sexual orientation”?

[pamela]

why not? grandchildren? adopt...

if my boys are gay that is fine, it does not change how i feel. I want them to grow up to be the best possible persons that they can be

 

 

Pam, you avoided the point and tried to manipulate what I said to represent something else. You did not say you ever wished your child would be gay or not. I believe, in an honest apprasial of what YOU would WANT your childs sexuality to be, it would be heterosexual, not homosexual. And I dont think it would be as simple (or selfish) as grandkids. Are you in denial of the reality of the human condition to promote a social agenda

asking why not is a manipulation? since when?

am i in denial? hmmm cedars, quite an assumption on your part asking me that. First off lots of moms want grandchildren, so hence the grandchildren question. Secondly, my want is for them to be who they are period. Thirdly, we all suffer in different ways from the human condition.there are many injustices that are done to us as humans, whether that be denied healthcare, a job, etc.

[modest]

...Let me examine you thoroughly enough to determine just what your natural sexual orientation really is....

 

:hihi:

 

Or should the psychologist say: “You’ are showing indications that your sexual orientation is not specifically heterosexual. Let me examine you thoroughly enough to determine just what your natural sexual orientation really is. There are many factors to consider, including the possibility that you naturally heterosexual. As such, I will then treat you according to my professional opinion of the true nature of your sexual orientation”?

 

It would be absurd for a therapist to try and convert someone with homosexual urges into someone with heterosexual urges under any circumstance including whatever it is you're trying to get at above.

 

Butters Arrives at Camp - Clips - South Park Studios

 

~modest

[Larv]

:hihi:

Naughty minds read naughty things.

 

It would be absurd for a therapist to try and convert someone with homosexual urges into someone with heterosexual urges under any circumstance including whatever it is you're trying to get at above.

I make allowance for that confused 12-year-old boy who has been bullied and abused into thinking he’s a “queer,” when in fact he is not. Try to remember that confused children with go off on any tangent. I think there is a risk when psychologists try to tilt the patient in one direction or the other, thus exacerbating his already confused and abused condition. This is why I am suspicious of an attitude here that a heterosexual tilt is bad, but a homosexual tilt is good.

[modest]

I make allowance for that confused 12-year-old boy who has been bullied and abused into thinking he’s a “queer,” when in fact he is not. Try to remember that confused children with go off on any tangent. I think there is a risk when psychologists try to tilt the patient in one direction or the other, thus exacerbating his already confused and abused condition. This is why I am suspicious of an attitude here that a heterosexual tilt is bad, but a homosexual tilt is good.

 

Gay-to-straight therapy is absurd no matter how confused, young, abused, etc the patient. It is the act of trying to convert a person away from their own natural sexual orientation which is absurd. It doesn't matter if the patient is gay or straight or bi. Even if the patient is confused and doesn't know what their own sexual orientation is—"gay-to-straight" therapy would especially make no sense in that case. There is no circumstance ever where gay-to-straight ("conversion") therapy makes sense.

 

~modest