Gay-to-straight therapy repudiated

[Cedars]

 

"I was referred to Levy by the conservative Christian group Focus on the Family, which claims on its Web site that homosexuality can be treated and prevented. "

Here is the point. The psychologist was not making the claim, the christian group Focus on the Family is making the claim.

 

Conservative Christians say curing gays comes from loving them. "Compassion -- not bigotry -- compels us to support the healing of homosexuals," says the Family Research Council.

Again, its not psychologists making the claim, its the Family Research Council.

 

One "ex-gay" program in Memphis, Tenn., Refuge, bars men from wearing jewelry, donning Calvin Klein clothes and listening to secular music.

 

This is very similar to some drug/alcohol treatment centers. During participation in the program, many things you did while using are not allowed during the program. I know theres programs that ban rock music when treating teens. I know most (if not all) ban even the playing of a radio. Clothing restrictions occur also. While its not brand name that I am aware of there are appropriate dress codes. You show cleavage, your gonna have to change your shirt. Your time is divided up greatly and you are allowed very little time to do anything outside of the program.

 

Additionally, there are several religious groups who ban these very things (in different degrees). While I may think its silly, its not my place to define what their religion tells them they must do. While it may harm Calvin Kleins profits, or reduce Ozzy Osborns sales, these people are voluntarily attempting to alter their behavior.

 

Ah yes, that will work. Ban secular music and certain designer clothes. Then the gays will realize their sins and come running back to God.

See, this is reversed. There are homosexuals who seek help with their issue/sin of homosexuality and for some it is directly related to their belief in a god. They conclude to achieve salvation (or some variant) they must alter themselves and after entering the/certain programs, the banning secular music/some types of clothes occurs.

[modest]

I don't know what you're looking for Cedars. As far as I can tell, you agree with this completely:

 

Does the psychologist lie to them and say "You're not normal, but we can fix you. We can make you heterosexual"? The answer seems so clear to me that I can't imagine why this thread is still dragging on.

 

I'm sure you agree that a psychologist should not say such a thing.

 

Beyond that, I'm not going to debate you on the differences between the word "fix" and the word "heal" or the difference between "not normal" and "condition".

 

~modest

[Boerseun]

As to Turtle's claim that...

Gay Men, Straight Women Have Similar Brains - US News and World Report

..., that's simply not true.

 

Some of the best drivers I know are gay.

[Moontanman]

First being gay makes life more difficult. They [homosexuals] all lament their lack of opportunity. They may think the cheerleader or football player is VERY appealing, but they are out of range due to the difference in sexual orientation. Doesnt have to involve anything else to make life more difficult for a homosexual or cause an issue with physiology.

 

Do you honestly think there are no gay football players? No gay cheerleaders? Oh do I know some people you should talk to. Do you honestly think that gay males re effeminate and that gay women are masculine? I go to church with a gay NBA basketball player, I know women who are quite feminine not to mention beautiful who are homosexual. If this matter is going to be discussed such stereotypes have to be debunked to begin with.

 

I imagine its similar to the promises offered by drug/alcohol treatment. "if you follow our program, you wont drink again"

 

Please you are equating homosexuality with alcoholism? Follow my program and your desire to perform fellatio will go away? ROFLMAO

 

Now lets be serious, lots of posts seem to be dwelling on a 12 year old boy who is confused by his sexuality. At the very least lets widen the scope and include a hypothetical 12 year old girl as well.

 

I can't say this in any way but this one and I'm sure it is going to upset some here but children are not homosexual or heterosexual they are simply sexual. a child who has sex doesn't think he or she is gay or straight they just know it feels good to have their genitalia touched by others.

 

Now I can say this because I have been having sex since I was six years old, little girls and little boys, it didn't matter that much and the idea of homosexual or heterosexual or bi sexual never occurred to me. My first sex was with a 12 year old baby sitter (girl) but later there were other boys and other girls, When I hit puberty the idea of sex with boys vanished from my mind and never re-entered.

 

I didn't make a conscious decision to like girls or not to like boys, i had no choice in the matter, never occurred to me that I might have a choice. at around 12 to 13 I simply lost all interest in sex with anyone but girls.

 

Now i do have a homosexual son, he is a fine young man. kind, generous to a fault, highly intelligent. I suspected he was different when he was a child but the idea of homosexuality didn't come around until he has a teen. he was terrified i might reject him and throw him out of the house. Why? because he had seen other young boys who admitted to being gay being thrown out and rejected. to be honest it hurt my feelings a little he could even think i would do such a thing but once he told me he was gay I was ok with it.

 

Would I have wished it on him? of course not, society gives gay people a much harder time than straight people. He has been beaten up, kicked out of College ROTC where he had a complete paid education. He was enthralled with the idea of being a jet pilot. He was on the fast track to a military career. Until they asked him to sign a paper saying he was not gay. he talked to me about it, i had brought him up not to lie, ever! We discussed it, he couldn't lie, officers do not lie was what they had drummed into him so he refused to sign the paper. His "buddies" found out some how and beat him badly telling him if he refused to get out of the program they would kill him.

 

So would I wish him to be gay? Hell no, society didn't give him a fair deal because he is gay, his life long hopes and dreams were taken away because he is gay. Is he effeminate? Not hardly, no one who doesn't know him would guess he is gay, he lives with his partner and goes to school to teach government at the college level. Yes being gay can be bad but like lots of things that are "bad" they are bad because of the way society treats the people who they "catch" outside the values that society arbitrarily imposes on others.

 

Every time we as a society or as individuals reject the idea of a gay person being normal we feed the fires of bigotry and prejudice. It doesn't matter if you are gay or if you are straight or somewhere in between. Sexuality is the one thing that should be up to the person it involves and not the business of anyone else. No one should be thought of as "less than" due to their sexuality.

 

Sadly I lost many friends because I had a gay son! Humans are such wonderful creatures, not only are they unable to accept homosexuals I was somehow guilty of being "bad" because I had a gay son.

 

So every time anyone makes a crack about gays in some condescending way they are promoting the beatings my son took, the loss of his dreams and the consignment of him to a lesser part of society. Excuse me if i don't take kindly to people who don't like gays, they are trying to keep their own stupidity as a viable form of thought and at the same time hurting my son and all other homosexual people.

[Turtle]

As to Turtle's claim that...

Turtle

Gay Men, Straight Women Have Similar Brains - US News and World Report Gay Men, Straight Women Have Similar Brains - US News and World Report

 

..., that's simply not true.

 

Some of the best drivers I know are gay.

 

now your visceral bigotry against women is showing. :bouquet: :bouquet: you know i never say anything that's simply not true; if i say something not true, then it is rigorously complexly not true. getting back to driving & gayness & science then for some complex truth.

 

Who Are Better Drivers: Men or Women? - MSN Autos

... So who are better drivers: men or women?

 

The Answer Is ...

In a study released by Quality Planning, an analytics company that validates policyholder information for auto insurers, women came out on top. ...

 

:interesting:

[InfiniteNow]

Thank you for the expressive and authentic post, moontanman. You've really helped to put an actual face on these otherwise academic and abstract arguments we all keep having.

 

It really is that simple. These are peoples sons and daughters, and they deserve not to be discriminated against, or hated for merely having a different sexual preference. I struggle sometimes to believe that we still are facing these types of issues and it's almost 2010... not 1010, but 2010... How much longer will it take for our society to wake up and move beyond such unfounded ignorance?

 

 

Request to Staff:

I think it's obvious Moontanman intended to post to the other thread. Can you please move his and my posts, and maybe go ahead and close this thread since the issue has been addressed and needs no further attention? Thanks.

 

http://hypography.com/forums/psychology/20469-gay-to-straight-therapy-repudiated.html

Moderation Note: Done.

[Cedars]

Do you honestly think there are no gay football players? No gay cheerleaders? Snipped rant

No moontan, I know theres a few (very few) gay football players. I also know they did not come out until they were very safe in their own lives. I was relating it to my own experiences when a gay teen I knew took the chance of asking a football player out, against everyone's advice (those in his circle) who knew what he had planned. His dad/family had no idea he was gay. Even after the beating.

 

So I am not sure the out pro sports people are doing teen gays a favor. Teen gays dont always sense when they are in danger. Adult gays dont always sense when they are in danger. And as far as the next rant, to deflect it, I dont walk in North Minneapolis because its dangerous. Theres lots of danger.

Please you are equating homosexuality with alcoholism? Follow my program and your desire to perform fellatio will go away? ROFLMAO

Do you have any idea what these programs are? I dont, hence the words "I imagine". If you have a link to the programs details, I will read it. BTW, an alcoholic isnt cured, they learn/choose to not drink. Lots of them think about having a drink every single day.

 

The majority of people in drug/alcohol treatment are there due to the laws (drunk driving/drugs). They didnt hurt anyone. Most of them have no problems with drugs or alcohol, just they got busted. Similar to the anti-sodomy laws (its doesnt hurt anyone). So without knowing the process in the program(s) I figure it must be designed like Drug/alcohol treatment.

 

Hazelden -- Center City Minn alcohol and drug addiction treatment center

 

Now lets be serious, [snipped a bunch of personal info]

 

Now i do have a homosexual son, he is a fine young man. kind, generous to a fault, highly intelligent....[snipped family details]

 

Would I have wished it on him? of course not, society gives gay people a much harder time than straight people. He has been beaten up, kicked out of College ROTC where he had a complete paid education. [snip details]

 

I had brought him up not to lie, ever! We discussed it, he couldn't lie, officers do not lie was what they had drummed into him so he refused to sign the paper. His "buddies" found out some how and beat him badly telling him if he refused to get out of the program they would kill him.

Officers do lie. Thats a fact.

 

The Truth About Lying | Psychology Today

 

I do appreciate your honesty about your son and the various issues you have chosen to share, while you made your decisions as a parent based on what you think was/is the best approach/morality, we separate here. If my kid had wanted to join the military (using your example) I would have told her to sign the paper and do what it says if she was absolute on joining to pursue her dream and would have discussed the consenquenses of not following through. You do realize (like your gay football point) There ARE gays in the military. Gays who have been serving long LONG before the ease of dont ask, dont tell. This I know. So sorry, if your son had really wanted it, he would have signed the paper.

 

So would I wish him to be gay? Hell no, society didn't give him a fair deal because he is gay, his life long hopes and dreams were taken away because he is gay. Yes being gay can be bad but like lots of things that are "bad" they are bad because of the way society treats the people who they "catch" outside the values that society arbitrarily imposes on others.

Society caters to the majority. A graph was put up on the societal position on sodomy. That is the reality of people.

 

His hopes were not taken away because he is gay. He gave them up. Its your/his morality, not mine. I know gays are in the military. So do you. He wants to be a martyr, fine. I will not encourage my kid, my family, my friends to become a martyr.

 

While you may not like the idea some grownups are not happy about being gay and want to be heterosexual, its not your or my place to force them. And thats what this is, adults seeking change. Have you read the 'position paper'?

Every time we as a society or as individuals reject the idea of a gay person being normal we feed the fires of bigotry and prejudice. It doesn't matter if you are gay or if you are straight or somewhere in between.

People do reject the idea of gay being "normal". They may accept its genetic or/with some other factors, but they are not going to accept its "normal". And as science pieces together the factors which cause homosexuality, they will attempt to develop a medical treatment for it. And parents will be doing whatever testing is needed and getting the treatment so their kids are not born homosexual (if medicine advances that far). NOTE I did not say ALL parents will test for it.

 

The APA "position paper" means nothing. Membership in the APA is totally voluntary. Psychology Licensure at the state level is controlled by each of the 50 states. There is a constitutional separation of church and state. There is no way a state can ban these 'faith based' treatment centers. Thats the way it is. The best, and I do mean the best they will get is to force them to remove the word 'therapy'. Insurance will not pay for it (if they do now, which I doubt) Thats it. Well thats the way it was when I worked for the state in one of the Health licensing areas.

 

BTW did anyone get charged with assault on your son?

[InfiniteNow]

Have you read the 'position paper'?

 

<...>

 

The APA "position paper" means nothing. Membership in the APA is totally voluntary.

 

You continue to engage in the logical fallacy of "poisoning the well" by referring to it as such. It is a meta-analysis, not a "position paper." That's a pretty hearty difference there, Cedars, and your academic integrity suffers each and every time you fail to acknowledge that.

[Moontanman]

No moontan, I know theres a few (very few) gay football players. I also know they did not come out until they were very safe in their own lives. I was relating it to my own experiences when a gay teen I knew took the chance of asking a football player out, against everyone's advice (those in his circle) who knew what he had planned. His dad/family had no idea he was gay. Even after the beating.

 

I would be willing to bet money that the kid was baited into this by a bunch of gay bashers who are not confident of their own sexuality. This sort of thing goes on all the time and the idea that gays are "bad" or "weird" or immoral is at the root of and why it continues. Kids feel ok doing this sort of thing because they get the attitude that gays are less than real citizens and deserve what ever they get. They get that idea from their parents. It seems kinda of odd that young girls who make a point to have sex with other girls are more popular than the girls who do not.

 

So I am not sure the out pro sports people are doing teen gays a favor. Teen gays dont always sense when they are in danger. Adult gays dont always sense when they are in danger. And as far as the next rant, to deflect it, I dont walk in North Minneapolis because its dangerous. Theres lots of danger.

 

Gays are a part of pro sports in at least the same proportions as the general population. Some of these athletes have come out and said the incidence of being gay is higher in athletes than the regular population. Is it correct for there to be a place in your town that you cannot walk due to danger probably due to that area being economically depressed or because of racism? You don't want to do something about that? That situation is intolerable and every one should be actively trying to make it safe for any one.

 

 

Do you have any idea what these programs are? I dont, hence the words "I imagine". If you have a link to the programs details, I will read it. BTW, an alcoholic isnt cured, they learn/choose to not drink. Lots of them think about having a drink every single day.

 

The majority of people in drug/alcohol treatment are there due to the laws (drunk driving/drugs). They didnt hurt anyone. Most of them have no problems with drugs or alcohol, just they got busted. Similar to the anti-sodomy laws (its doesnt hurt anyone). So without knowing the process in the program(s) I figure it must be designed like Drug/alcohol treatment.

 

Hazelden -- Center City Minn alcohol and drug addiction treatment center

 

 

Again you equate homosexuality to alcoholism, I see absolutely no way this connection can be justified. If what you are saying is true then a person should be able to go to therapy and become homosexual.

 

 

Officers do lie. Thats a fact.

 

Of course they do, but they claim they do not and a young man who has been taught his who life not to lie finds it difficult to do so.

 

I do appreciate your honesty about your son and the various issues you have chosen to share, while you made your decisions as a parent based on what you think was/is the best approach/morality, we separate here. If my kid had wanted to join the military (using your example) I would have told her to sign the paper and do what it says if she was absolute on joining to pursue her dream and would have discussed the consenquenses of not following through. You do realize (like your gay football point) There ARE gays in the military. Gays who have been serving long LONG before the ease of dont ask, dont tell. This I know. So sorry, if your son had really wanted it, he would have signed the paper.

 

You obviously have no clue and to act like you do know what is going on and to critize me and what my son and I have done is in fact intolerable

 

Society caters to the majority. A graph was put up on the societal position on sodomy. That is the reality of people.

 

No it is not sodomy that have a problem with, a great many if not most heterosexual couples practice sodomy every night. It's not sodomy it is who is doing it that bothers them and that is no ones business but the people doing it.

 

 

His hopes were not taken away because he is gay. He gave them up. Its your/his morality, not mine. I know gays are in the military. So do you. He wants to be a martyr, fine. I will not encourage my kid, my family, my friends to become a martyr.

 

Again he was young and inexperinced had the problem of having a dad who taught him it was wrong to lie. If anyone took it away from his it was me. I guess I should have taught him to be a lier, to be dishonest about the very core of his being. I guess you could have taught him those values better than me.......

 

While you may not like the idea some grownups are not happy about being gay and want to be heterosexual, its not your or my place to force them. And thats what this is, adults seeking change. Have you read the 'position paper'?

 

No, almost all of these people are teens who are bing screwed up by people who refuse to allow anyone to be different from them.

 

People do reject the idea of gay being "normal". They may accept its genetic or/with some other factors, but they are not going to accept its "normal". And as science pieces together the factors which cause homosexuality, they will attempt to develop a medical treatment for it. And parents will be doing whatever testing is needed and getting the treatment so their kids are not born homosexual (if medicine advances that far). NOTE I did not say ALL parents will test for it.

 

Only people who are ignorant and bigoted would do such a thing. The consequences of fooling around with a child in-vitro are many and profound. To do so over sexual orientation is criminal. We already have many children who are born with undifferentiated genitalia, Doctors routinely "correct" this problem but they are often wrong the child grows gender confused and it can cause profound psychological problems later in life.

 

 

The APA "position paper" means nothing. Membership in the APA is totally voluntary. Psychology Licensure at the state level is controlled by each of the 50 states. There is a constitutional separation of church and state. There is no way a state can ban these 'faith based' treatment centers. Thats the way it is. The best, and I do mean the best they will get is to force them to remove the word 'therapy'. Insurance will not pay for it (if they do now, which I doubt) Thats it. Well thats the way it was when I worked for the state in one of the Health licensing areas.

 

These so called faith based treatments often consuist of abuse, exorcims where the child can loose thier lives to the horrendous BS they are exposed to. You are so deep into your denial of reality it's sad, I hope for your childs sake you never have to have a homosexual child, you would be a horrific parent.

 

BTW did anyone get charged with assault on your son?

 

No there more than a 12 of them and they told him they would kill him if he gave any names. The police were called but they didn't think they could do anything since it would his word against several of the young officers of the ROTC program and he was just a gay guy who got beat up.

 

How Many Current Professional Athletes Are Gay? - Blogcritics Sports

[Turtle]

People do reject the idea of gay being "normal". They may accept its genetic or/with some other factors, but they are not going to accept its "normal". And as science pieces together the factors which cause homosexuality, they will attempt to develop a medical treatment for it. And parents will be doing whatever testing is needed and getting the treatment so their kids are not born homosexual (if medicine advances that far). ...

 

Gay Men, Straight Women Have Similar Brains - US News and World Report

Although some sex differences in brain size are visible at birth, the brain continues to develop as the child matures, meaning that environmental factors could also play a role.

 

The current wisdom regarding genetics and sexual orientation posits that genes may play a role in male homosexuality but not in female homosexuality, the researchers said. ...

 

tests already exist for male gay babies in the womb. couldn't they just be aborted when detected so they don't suffer any beatings or embarass their families? now that uenice shriver is dead, we can do the same for the downs syndrome babies and spina bifida babies and all those babies that might have a bad life or make normal people uncomfortable. :eek2:

[Larv]

tests already exist for male gay babies in the womb. couldn't they just be aborted when detected so they don't suffer any beatings or embarass their families?

There may be hope for gay babies. A cure for homosexuality may be possible with a hypothalamus transplant. This method would be especially equitable, since it could also cure heterosexuality.

[InfiniteNow]

There may be hope for gay babies. A cure for homosexuality may be possible with a hypothalamus transplant.

 

Homosexuality is not some disease to be cured, and you and all of the rest of Team Homo Hater need to stop acting as if it is. It's so unfathomably repulsive to keep reading these sorts of comments coming from otherwise rather intelligent people.

 

Your comments have ZERO difference from someone who suggests that we should "cure" people from being black, and it's appalling how comfortable you all continue to be when making such unconscionable assertions. My disgust right now is palpable.

[modest]

...hypothalamus transplant...

 

Can you please explain the viability of a hypothalamus transplant?

 

~modest

[Larv]

Can you please explain the viability of a hypothalamus transplant?

Speculatively, a hypothalamic transplant on humans is not unthinkable. Such transplants have been done on rats to see how their gonadotropic hormones are affected (from the cited article):

 

The gonadotropin-releasing hormone axons specifically innervate the median eminence of the hypothalamus, their normal target, which raises interesting questions of neurobiological graftlhost interactions. The hpg model has been used to investigate factors affecting graft survival; by suitable immunosuppression it has been possible to reverse the hypogonadism with grafts of rat preoptic area tissue.

But this might not apply only gay-to-straight therapy; it could also be used for straight-to-gay therapy. I can imagine whole flocks of heterosexual men lining up for the cure.

 

Hey, it works for hearts, lungs, livers, and kidneys. Why couldn't it work for hypothalamuses, too?

[modest]

There may be hope for gay babies. A cure for homosexuality may be possible with a hypothalamus transplant. This method would be especially equitable, since it could also cure heterosexuality.

Speculatively, a hypothalamic transplant on humans is not unthinkable. Such transplants have been done on rats to see how their gonadotropic hormones are affected (from the cited article):

 

 

But this might not apply only gay-to-straight therapy; it could also be used for straight-to-gay therapy. I can imagine whole flocks of heterosexual men lining up for the cure.

 

Hey, it works for hearts, lungs, livers, and kidneys. Why couldn't it work for hypothalamuses, too?

 

In the words of Christopher Hitchens “There are no statements worth arguing here. All you can do is underline them."

 

Larv imagines a world where people who are different line up to have their brain carved, dissected, and reassembled into a different sexual orientation. I can only underline this and stress that it is no joke. Psycologists have tied down unwilling gay teenagers and subjected them to electroshock therapy. It happened to Lou Reed. He talked about it in an interview:

They put the thing down your throat so you don't swallow your tongue, and they put electrodes on your head. That's what was recommended in Rockland County to discourage homosexual feelings. The effect is that you lose your memory and become a vegetable. You can't read a book because you get to page seventeen and have to go right back to page one again

Most people hear this kind of thing and think "how horrific", yet people in this thread are describing it with glee. Electroshock isn't enough—let's cut out and replace part of their brain!

 

It must be a generational thing. In fact, it is a generational thing:

Source

I've never thought to myself "let's kill this Jew because of the circumstance of his birth". I've never thought "let's lynch this black guy because of how he was born". And, it just wouldn't occur to me to shock a gay person into being straight or to cut out part of their brain until they are straight. It must be generational, because nothing I know and nothing I have ever seen or learned in this world makes me "imagine" such a thing.

 

~modest

[Turtle]

Treatmentshomosexuality

Treatments to change a person's sexuality are unethical and may be damaging. This is because we have known for many years that homosexuality is not a disorder. Nor is there any evidence that any such "treatments" are effective. If you listen to the BBC debate with Dr Jospeh Nicolosi (NARTH) on our Interviews page you will hear the evidence (or lack of it) discussed. In fact, the American Psychiatric Association explicitly warns against so-called reparative therapy that attempts to make gay people straight. ...

 

BioMed Central | Full text | The response of mental health professionals to clients seeking help to change or redirect same-sex sexual orientation

Conclusion

A significant minority of mental health professionals are attempting to help lesbian, gay and bisexual clients to become heterosexual. Given lack of evidence for the efficacy of such treatments, this is likely to be unwise or even harmful. ...

 

maybe the bigots would be happier in iran where there are no gays. :eek2:

[Moontanman]

There may be hope for gay babies. A cure for homosexuality may be possible with a hypothalamus transplant. This method would be especially equitable, since it could also cure heterosexuality.

 

Do you think it might cure you larv?