Cedars Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 asking why not is a manipulation? since when?am i in denial? hmmm cedars, quite an assumption on your part asking me that. First off lots of moms want grandchildren, so hence the grandchildren question. Secondly, my want is for them to be who they are period. Thirdly, we all suffer in different ways from the human condition.there are many injustices that are done to us as humans, whether that be denied healthcare, a job, etc. It is when the answer was clearly included in my OP. and I repeat:Post # 65I wouldnt want the struggle of being homosexual. I am GLAD I am not homosexual. I am glad I am not trans-sexual. I wouldnt want my kid to be homosexual. And I am glad I am not black. Its not about bias/bigotry against these groups, its a clear recognition that being one of/combination of these groups (minority/fringe/whatever) would add to the struggle to thrive/survive. Its not good for me, its not good for my kid. Post # 88"I wouldnt want my kid to be gay. I cant think of a single parent who hopes their kid will grow up to be a homosexual. I did know one couple who feared their 5 year old was going to be gay. Spent some time laughing at them, spent some time trying to reassure them his behaviors at that time were not an indication of sexuality. One thing for sure, at 24 hes not gay. Not wanting your kid to be gay is totally different than saying "if my kid is gay, I will reject them"." I dont know how much clearer I could have been. Its obvious to me that you believe homosexuals suffer injustice. I think you believe they are denied equality. So Pam, as a parent, would you want your kid to be a homosexual? My question is not about whether or not you would love your homosexual child. I am sure you would love your homosexual child. But I would be surprised if the answer was yes, I want my kid to be born a homosexual. The point being its not bigotry that influences that opinion in a parent, or someone contemplating their potential child. Its not good for your offspring to be homosexual and I think your fully aware of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cedars Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Being homosexual presents certain difficulties. In particular, the world has in it bigoted people. Such people make the life of a gay person more difficult than it otherwise should be. As a direct result of this one might expect some gay people to have trouble accepting their own physiology. Hence the question of this thread. When a group of people are physiologically different from the majority and having psychological trouble because the majority doesn't accept them what is the best way to help them psychologically? Does the psychologist lie to them and say "You're not normal, but we can fix you. We can make you heterosexual"? The answer seems so clear to me that I can't imagine why this thread is still dragging on. ~modestFirst being gay makes life more difficult. They [homosexuals] all lament their lack of opportunity. They may think the cheerleader or football player is VERY appealing, but they are out of range due to the difference in sexual orientation. Doesnt have to involve anything else to make life more difficult for a homosexual or cause an issue with physiology. From Freezee's link to a salon.com article: "Levy tells me that reparative therapy can be a lonely business. "There are not a lot of us who do this work," he says. "It is politically incorrect. And it is difficult." He also admits that "not everybody who starts down this road gets cured. This is not a sure-fire cure. I wish I could tell you that it is, but it is not." But he remains committed." So I am not sure that the representation that these people offer "we can fix you" is an accurate summary of what this SO therapy promises its clients. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeztar Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Naughty minds read naughty things. I'm not sure what to make of that. :hihi: I make allowance for that confused 12-year-old boy who has been bullied and abused into thinking he’s a “queer,” when in fact he is not. Try to remember that confused children with go off on any tangent. I think there is a risk when psychologists try to tilt the patient in one direction or the other, thus exacerbating his already confused and abused condition. This is why I am suspicious of an attitude here that a heterosexual tilt is bad, but a homosexual tilt is good. It's not about morality. Being gay does not make someone "good", the same for heterosexuals. "Good or Bad" comes from social interactions, as judged by one's peers. Someone might say, "Sodomy is bad and no one should ever do it" or they could say "Sodomy is not for me, but if other people want to do it, that's their choice". These are two completely different attitudes. One implies morality, the other does not. I realize these issues are contentious, but it's important, imho, to eliminate morality (or at least put it on the side burner) if we are to discuss the APA's statement with reason and logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeztar Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 From Freezee's link to a salon.com article: "Levy tells me that reparative therapy can be a lonely business. "There are not a lot of us who do this work," he says. "It is politically incorrect. And it is difficult." He also admits that "not everybody who starts down this road gets cured. This is not a sure-fire cure. I wish I could tell you that it is, but it is not." But he remains committed." So I am not sure that the representation that these people offer "we can fix you" is an accurate summary of what this SO therapy promises its clients. (bolding mine) Why do you think the representation is not an accurate summary? When people want to "cure" something for which there is no cure (or need for cure), it starts to smell of bad medicine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modest Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Being homosexual presents certain difficulties...First being gay makes life more difficult.Was that to agree with me? They may think the cheerleader or football player is VERY appealing, but they are out of range due to the difference in sexual orientation. Doesnt have to involve anything else to make life more difficult for a homosexual or cause an issue with physiology. I'm honestly unsure of the point you're trying to make. You think life is more difficult for gay people because the object of their affection might be hopeless? I'm thinking most people probably go through something similar regardless of their orientation. And, I'm not sure how that would be related to the topic. I'm probably missing something. ~modest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cedars Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 (bolding mine) Why do you think the representation is not an accurate summary? When people want to "cure" something for which there is no cure (or need for cure), it starts to smell of bad medicine. I am not sure why you are questioning me. Modest posted the bit about psychologists representing they can "cure" homosexuality. I posted the quote from your salon.com article, which is the only direct quote of an actual practicing (I assume) psychologist who clearly states there is no promise of a cure. What I read of the APA position paper (most of it), I found no direct quotes where a psychologist informed a client you will be cured. I read of allegations made to the APA that this was occurring, but again, no direct evidence that is actual what the clients were being told would happen (cured). I imagine its similar to the promises offered by drug/alcohol treatment. "if you follow our program, you wont drink again" Heres another quote from the salon.com article you linked to:"Levy says reparative therapy is effective, but that a cure for homosexuality takes at least two years of weekly counseling. (My one hour cost Salon $140.) He says that if I stay in therapy, I will either turn straight or get "significant relief." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modest Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Modest posted the bit about psychologists representing they can "cure" homosexuality. I posted the quote from your salon.com article, which is the only direct quote of an actual practicing (I assume) psychologist who clearly states there is no promise of a cure. What I read of the APA position paper (most of it), I found no direct quotes where a psychologist informed a client you will be cured. I read of allegations made to the APA that this was occurring, but again, no direct evidence that is actual what the clients were being told would happen (cured). American gay 'cure' psychologist Joseph Nicolosi to speak in London | News | The First Post http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/01/29/1043804407659.html http://www.narth.com/index.html ~modest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfiniteNow Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 What I read of the APA position paper (most of it), I found no direct quotes where a psychologist informed a client you will be cured. I read of allegations made to the APA that this was occurring, but again, no direct evidence that is actual what the clients were being told would happen (cured). <...> Heres another quote from the salon.com article you linked to:"Levy says reparative therapy is effective, but that a cure for homosexuality takes at least two years of weekly counseling. (My one hour cost Salon $140.) He says that if I stay in therapy, I will either turn straight or get "significant relief." The APA article is based on peer-reviewed research which showed a definite lack in effectiveness. Levy's personal statements are anecdotal (actually, sounds more like a used car salesman, but I'll leave that aside), and his comments run counter to the actual data available to us regarding the effectiveness of such approaches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cedars Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Was that to agree with me? I'm honestly unsure of the point you're trying to make. You think life is more difficult for gay people because the object of their affection might be hopeless? I'm thinking most people probably go through something similar regardless of their orientation. And, I'm not sure how that would be related to the topic. I'm probably missing something. ~modest Wow. I dont know how to put it any plainer than I did. Maybe you've never discussed such things with homosexuals. Wait... you live in kanas? Have you ever discussed such things with homosexuals? Do you even know any homosexuals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turtle Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 getting back to the science of why gay-to-straight therapy is repudiated. the entire piece linked below covers much more than i have put in the quote. ooo oooo! i got an idea!! let's all actually read it & then discuss what it says! :hihi: :D Gay Men, Straight Women Have Similar Brains - US News and World Report...For example, the brains of straight men and of gay women share certain common features: both are slightly asymmetric, with the right hemisphere larger than the left, say the Swedish researchers. On the other hand, the brains of gay men and straight women are both symmetrical. Similar trends emerged when scientists tracked connectivity in the amygdala, the region of the brain involved in emotional learning and in activating the fight-or-flight response. They noted strong similarities between gay men and straight women, and lesbians and straight men. The findings are published in the current issue of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. "This is a very interesting study demonstrating a possible neurobiological relationship in brain size between gay men and straight women," said Paul Sanberg, distinguished professor of neurosurgery and director of the University of South Florida Center for Aging and Brain Repair in Tampa. ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modest Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Wow. I dont know how to put it any plainer than I did. Maybe you've never discussed such things with homosexuals. Wait... you live in kanas? Have you ever discussed such things with homosexuals? Do you even know any homosexuals? In point of fact, my girlfriend of 1 and 1/2 years in college was bi so I hung out frequently in a surprisingly large gay scene at K-State. I find your post offensive in that I expressed confusion over the relevance of what you had said and your choice was not to clarify but rather tell me how little I know of the topic. It's an ad hominem and it's offensive and it's more wrong than you know. [edited to remove pointless question... sorry] ~modest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cedars Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 American gay 'cure' psychologist Joseph Nicolosi to speak in London | News | The First Post Catholic Church backs 'cure for gays' - theage.com.au NARTH Home Page ~modest From the first link:"Dr Nicolosi says he has been helping to "increase the heterosexual potential" of two out of three men for the past 25 years. The 62-year-old former president of the National Association for the Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (Narth) is an advocate and practitioner of 'reparative therapy', which claims to help people overcome or reduce unwanted homosexual feelings." If you can find a quote where he claims to cure all patients, please post it. From the second link: "Father Harvey said yesterday that the purpose of Courage was to teach people how to be chaste. If people wanted therapy they were referred to a psychiatrist. "Talk of a 'cure' is too vague," he said. "There's two kinds of change. The first is the ability to overcome temptation and be able to be chaste, and that takes a lot of prayer and a lot of work."" It doesnt surprise me a bit that a catholic priest would be pushing celibacy. There are no quotes from the psychologist in this link. As far as your third link, if there is a particular article you are referencing, please link to that. I havent the time to wade through 40 links. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pamela Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 dont know how much clearer I could have been. Its obvious to me that you believe homosexuals suffer injustice. I think you believe they are denied equality. So Pam, as a parent, would you want your kid to be a homosexual? My question is not about whether or not you would love your homosexual child. I am sure you would love your homosexual child. But I would be surprised if the answer was yes, I want my kid to be born a homosexual. The point being its not bigotry that influences that opinion in a parent, or someone contemplating their potential child. Its not good for your offspring to be homosexual and I think your fully aware of that.i am not failing to understand you cedars, so i am not sure why you would post the bolded.I have not referred to you as being a bigot, so dont even go there. all i did was ask you a question, it is you who are making more of this than is actually there. now to answer your question-what i want is of no consequence-it means nothing-so what should i say therefore? i want my kid to be who he is- if he is homosexual, then i want him to be homosexual-okay?i do not separate people according to labels-it is total bs. people are people-we all struggle, we all live,we all love, we all die-will this suffice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cedars Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 In point of fact, my girlfriend of 1 and 1/2 years in college was bi so I hung out frequently in a surprisingly large gay scene at K-State. I find your post offensive in that I expressed confusion over the relevance of what you had said and your choice was not to clarify but rather tell me how little I know of the topic. It's an ad hominem and it's offensive and it's more wrong than you know. [edited to remove pointless question... sorry] ~modest I dont know why you would be offended at a question(s). I was trying to discover whether or not you have a personal connection in the gay community or if your position is based on stuff you read in a book/paper. Kansas is not well known for its tolerance of the gay community and I would guess there is a very closeted community. I have no idea what you do for a living (such as social work, or other mental health professional). I had no idea if you have experience with the gay community on a personal level. If you would have asked me why I ask, I would have explained it. Too much jumping to conclusions around here and assuming the worst. Such as jumping to the conclusion someones position is based on bigotry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modest Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 ...If you can find a quote where he claims to cure all patients, please post it... I'm sorry Cedars, but I've made no claim that he or anyone else has said such a thing. My statement was the following:Does the psychologist lie to them and say "You're not normal, but we can fix you. We can make you heterosexual"? Dr. Joseph Nicolosi is a fine example of that. He has a book called "Healing Homosexuality". Written on the back cover:“This book should be required reading for anyone treating homosexuals (including gay therapists). It offers hope to many homosexuals who may have succumbed to despair. It enlightens in a highly readable, page turning form those already familiar with some of the dynamics of the condition as well as the methods most effective for its amelioration and cure”-Charles W. Socarides, M.D. Clinical Professor of Psychiatry Albert Einstein College of Medicine Healing homosexuality: case stories ... - Google BooksI think my characterization "not normal, but we can fix you" is rather fitting. I'm sorry if you disagree. ~modest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cedars Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 I'm sorry Cedars, but I've made no claim that he or anyone else has said such a thing. My statement was the following: Does the psychologist lie to them and say "You're not normal, but we can fix you. We can make you heterosexual"?And how is your above statement different from mine? "Lie to them" I assume means homosexuals who come into his office. All homosexuals who come into the psychologists office. If thats not what you meant, clarify please. I explored this statement via following the links you put up as evidence your claim is true "we can make you heterosexual". I found no evidence that any psychologist makes these claims to their client or even to interviewers (even those undercover and presenting themselves as homosexual when they are not, from freezee's link). Dr. Joseph Nicolosi is a fine example of that. He has a book called "Healing Homosexuality". Written on the back cover:He is not a fine example of that and your links bear this out. He is in one of the links and does not make the claim you attribute to him/psychologists. The other was a catholic priest and not a psychologist that I am aware of. As far as the third, I offered to read a specific article if you have one in mind, but I dont have time to wade through all those links to find something to support your claim. As far as the quote from the dust cover.... well... its a dust cover. Not much more weight/evidence than siskel and ebert snippets in movie reviews "best movie of the year. A must see film". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeztar Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 I explored this statement via following the links you put up as evidence your claim is true "we can make you heterosexual". I found no evidence that any psychologist makes these claims to their client or even to interviewers (even those undercover and presenting themselves as homosexual when they are not, from freezee's link). It's important to understand what that link is saying. Here are some quotes from it (emphasis mine): I was referred to Levy by the conservative Christian group Focus on the Family, which claims on its Web site that homosexuality can be treated and prevented. "While the Bible clearly states that homosexuality runs contrary to God's plan for relationships, those who struggle with homosexual feelings are still God's children, in need of His forgiveness and healing," the group states. Conservative Christians say curing gays comes from loving them. "Compassion -- not bigotry -- compels us to support the healing of homosexuals," says the Family Research Council. Levy practices what is called "reparative" or "conversion" therapy, which allegedly helps homosexuals become heterosexuals. The theory that homosexuality is a mental disorder that needs to be cured is the moral underpinning of the Christian right's crusade against gay marriage, sodomy laws, gay adoption and sex ed curriculums in schools. While all major modern mental health professions say conversion therapy is baseless and potentially dangerous, I wanted to experience for myself what is going on behind counselors' closed doors. Reparative therapy focuses on getting gays and lesbians to stop talking or walking "gay." One "ex-gay" program in Memphis, Tenn., Refuge, bars men from wearing jewelry, donning Calvin Klein clothes and listening to secular music. Ah yes, that will work. Ban secular music and certain designer clothes. Then the gays will realize their sins and come running back to God. :) I still like the closing sentence though. And if someone comes seeking relief from this suffering, we would be wrong not to offer them relief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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