Gay-to-straight therapy repudiated

[Turtle]

EDIT: I notice that you [posters who don't like gay]failed to respond to the actual meat of my post, instead choosing to equivocate homosexuality with pedophilia, bestiality, and necrophilia. That, in itself, is rather telling.

 

and telling, and telling, and telling ad naseum across these many threads. it doesn't matter the genetics or statistics or history or any rational examination of gay to those folks because the very idea of gay makes them throw up a little in their mouths. always has, always will.

 

by all means however, continue iNow with the genetics, statistics, history, and rational examinations of gay as it makes evermore clear the truth of my assertion above. what would oscar wilde do? :)

[Larv]

EDIT: I notice that you failed to respond to the actual meat of my post, instead choosing to equivocate homosexuality with pedophilia, bestiality, and necrophilia. That, in itself, is rather telling.

Didn't find any meat, sorry. Too much mayonnaise.

 

As far as sexual preference goes in any population, the variations off the central theme usually known as heterosexuality—some use the term “normality”—are atypical but not abnormal. But aren't you a little prickly about the word "abnormal"? Couldn't one say that a musical savant is abnormally gifted in music? Maybe you need to turn down your emotional dial.

 

Sure, I could go searching the Internet for links that say homosexuality can result from abuse. Many young boys (don’t know about girls) who discover that their sexuality involves attraction to other boys instead of girls find that to be troubling. I can easily imagine why. As a “normal” boy—heterosexual, that is—I saw “queer” boys take abuse for their homosexuality. I can see why they might need to go to a psychologist for help.

 

The central question of this thread is: Is gay-to-straight therapy the wrong thing for psychologists to do? I think the answer is bound to be ambiguous, because some boys might ask for a reversal of their homosexuality. So, would you say that it is wrong for a boy ask for help if he wants a gay-to-straight conversion?

[Larv]

and telling, and telling, and telling ad naseum across these many threads. it doesn't matter the genetics or statistics or history or any rational examination of gay to those folks because the very idea of gay makes them throw up a little in their mouths. always has, always will.

 

by all means however, continue iNow with the genetics, statistics, history, and rational examinations of gay as it makes evermore clear the truth of my assertion above. what would oscar wilde do? :)

Oscar Wilde? Well, now, really!

 

Turtle, either you're not paying attention or you just don't understand. You're wrong, and you are predisposed to set your intellect aside on this issue. All the vomiting that was done was done on your side.

[Turtle]

Oscar Wilde? Well, now, really!

 

Turtle, either you're not paying attention or you just don't understand. You're wrong, and you are predisposed to set your intellect aside on this issue. All the vomiting that was done was done on your side.

 

:evil: yeah sure larv. as i said before, you would cut off your own nose to spite your face. nothing but specious dissembling. :)

[InfiniteNow]

The central question of this thread is: Is gay-to-straight therapy the wrong thing for psychologists to do?

And that question has been thoroughly answered.

 

You may not like what that answer is, Larv, but that does not change the fact that an unequivocal and abundantly clear answer has been put forth.

 

 

Even the American Psychological Association Says that Ex-Gay Therapy Causes Harm

Ex-gay therapy has been roundly condemned by rights-based organizations and activists for decades as nothing more than a sham psychological practice that can have indefinite and considerable consequences on those that are forced to go through it. Now the American Psychological Association (APA) is on the record with their agreement.

 

Meeting in Toronto this week, the APA released a report that said ex-gay therapy is harmful, and that there's no credible scientific evidence to suggest that people can change their sexual orientation, regardless of what organizations like Exodus International or Love Won Out think.

 

 

Psychologists association: Therapists shouldn't tell gay clients they can become straight

The American Psychological Association has declared that mental health professionals should not tell gay clients that they can become straight through therapy or other treatments.

 

Instead, the APA is urging therapists to consider multiple options — that could range from celibacy to switching churches — for helping clients whose sexual orientation and religious faith conflict.

 

In a resolution adopted by the APA's governing council and in a comprehensive report based on two years of research, the association puts itself firmly on record in opposition of so-called "reparative therapy" which seeks to change sexual orientation.

 

No solid evidence exists that such change is likely, says the report, and some research suggests that efforts to produce change could be harmful, inducing depression and suicidal tendencies.

 

 

Here is what people are saying about that decision/repudiation:

 

Truth Wins Out - Commentary: The APA Says "No Evidence" In Support of Ex-Gay Therapy

It was encouraging to see the APA question the ex-gay tactic of teaching vulnerable clients to live in a fantasy world. Groups like Exodus and the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH), regularly encourage clients to say they have converted, even though they are still gay. The idea is that by proclaiming a false heterosexual identity in advance of any legitimate change, the desired transformation will eventually come.

 

This idea is equivalent to me wanting to play professional basketball, so I begin to identify as a member of the New York Knicks. Never mind that I am too short, too old and not good enough to make the roster. If I embrace this surreal existence long enough, I will one-day be dunking the ball under the bright lights of Madison Square Garden.

 

It is imperative that clients are honest about who they are and not prodded to make claims that are not true. Such a gap between fantasy and reality, according to the APA report, can create “cognitive dissonance” and does not resolve “identity conflicts.”

 

 

 

 

 

Now, if anybody wants to read the actual report which has motivated the exchanges in this thread, look here:

 

Report of the American Psychological Association Task Force on Appropriate Therapeutic Responses to Sexual Orientation

The task force conducted a systematic review of the peer-reviewed journal literature on sexual orientation change efforts (SOCE) and concluded that

efforts to change sexual orientation are unlikely to be successful and involve some risk of harm

, contrary to the claims of SOCE practitioners and advocates.

 

Even though the research and clinical literature demonstrate that same-sex sexual and romantic attractions, feelings, and behaviors are normal and positive variations of human sexuality, regardless of sexual orientation identity, the task force concluded that the population that undergoes SOCE tends to have strongly conservative religious views that lead them to seek to change their sexual orientation.

 

Thus, the appropriate application of affirmative therapeutic interventions for those who seek SOCE involves therapist acceptance, support, and understanding of clients and the facilitation of clients’ active coping, social support, and identity exploration and development, without imposing a specific sexual orientation identity outcome.

[Larv]

Still waiting for an answer to this question: Would you say that it is wrong for a boy or a man to seek professional help if he wants a gay-to-straight conversion?

[Boerseun]

No, it's not "wrong" in the sense that it is not "wrong" for anybody to ask anything in a free society.

 

But whether it'll be effective, might be the same as a lefty asking for therapy to rid himself of his "abnormal" behaviour.

[CraigD]

Disclaimers first: I’m not a psychotherapist, but over the years I’ve worked with several, and have been married to one for 23 years, so feel I can offer worthwhile comments on the subject. However, reader, if you feel you need psychological help, don’t credit posts like mine or others in this thread or the articles to which it links, but meet with a legitimate, trained therapist.

Still waiting for an answer to this question: Would you say that it is wrong for a boy or a man to seek professional help if he wants a gay-to-straight conversion?

No, it is not wrong for any person to seek professional psychological counseling when he or she is experiencing emotional distress.

 

However, a simple yes or no answer to this question misapprehends and distorts the American Psychological Association statement resolution linked to in post #1. The relevant issue at hand is not whether an emotionally distressed person should seek a therapist’s help, but how the therapist should help her or him. The declaration of the APA is that therapists reporting “that they have been able to change their clients' sexual orientation from homosexual to heterosexual” using “so called ‘conversion therapies’”, violate their client’s “right to expect that such therapy will take place in a professionally neutral environment, without any social bias.” (quotes from APA Help Center: Sexual Orientation and Homosexuality)

 

Key psychotherapeutic principles here are not only that

• it’s a poor practice to teach a client that their sexual feelings are due to mental illness, spiritual sickness, or mystical causes such as the influence of the devil or original sin,

but also that

• What a client professes to want when seeking help and what an ethical therapist should actually help them to achieve, are not always the same.

In the case raised by Larv’s question, best, scientifically validated practices direct that it’s a bad practice approach a client’s problems by starting with the goal of “converting” them from “gay” to “strait.”

 

Note that this is not to say that the best practice precludes encouraging a client from changing his or her sexual behavior. Whether the client’s sexual behavior involves people of the same or opposite sex, if that behavior causes strong emotional distress, an ethical therapist should help the client consider changing it. In some cases, the client’s belief that the behavior is intrinsically wrong due to religious of other dogma contributes to the severity of their distress, and cause the behavior to be much more physically and emotionally dangerous, such as high risk anonymous sex under the influence of drugs or alcohol, preceded and followed by loathing and blaming her or his self or partner.

 

It’s critical, I think, to focus on the primary goal of legitimate psychological therapy, which is, IMHO, helping people overcome emotional distress and have happy, productive lives that don’t hurt others. Legitimate goals do not include validating or repudiating religious beliefs, informing legal or government policy, or even advancing the art and science of psychology. Though these are worthwhile pursuits, they are not nor should be allowed to interfere with the practice of helping people.

 

A good psychotherapist or religious minister understands these principles and goals both intellectually and intuitively.

[pamela]

Still waiting for an answer to this question: Would you say that it is wrong for a boy or a man to seek professional help if he wants a gay-to-straight conversion?

Wrong? Right? may be you are overlooking the fact as to why this individual is seeking to change. Is it forced twisted morality that is what is driving him, such as he is wrong for being homosexual and needs to be right by appearing to be heterosexual?

Wouldn't a better idea be that the individual was accepting of who they are and to love themselves? That is what therapy should accomplish, not imposing restrictions upon a person to be someone other than whom they are

[Theory5]

Therapy? This would not be therapy, it is brainwashing, simple as that. Therapy helps one overcome a problem, and find a solution within themselves, is it not? Most people dont really hate gays, even if they use the word 'gay' to mean something along the lines of stupid. But then there are the catholic and christian people who seem to hate it because it says soemthing along the lines of 'man shall not lie with man' in the bible. Personally I encourage showing your true self, be you straight, gay, etc. And in a world with a 6 billion population, I think it is even more important to adopt rather than give birth to a child. If you try to discourage somebodies true nature, I belive you are a horrible person. When all somebody wants is to be accepted, who are you to say no? From what I understand, most peoples confusion with sexuality is based on acceptance. They constantly worry if they show themselves, will people keep liking them or hate them?

Larv Says:

Still waiting for an answer to this question: Would you say that it is wrong for a boy or a man to seek professional help if he wants a gay-to-straight conversion?

I say that Im pretty sure they do NOT want to covert. They think it is the only way nessesary to be accepted, to live a normal life. (If somebody who has struggled with this or actually wants a conversion thinks im wrong, go ahead and tell me. This is based on my view of the world and I am pretty flexible in changing it. But if you have not had exprience with this please dont get into some sort of argument based on what you think people want.)

Fact is, this 'conversion' is brainwashing. Same as hitler brainwashed german children to fight for their country against the hated allies. Same as the US taught us to hate 'terrorists'.

 

Also I belive that brainwashing leads to mental instability, Which was brought up in an earlier post.

Something to think about,

Theory

[Larv]

Two rivers of opinion are running countercurrent here. One opinion is that psychologists should not try to treat a person who desires a gay-to-straight conversion, but instead consul him (can’t speak for females, of course) to accept what nature has bestowed upon him. The other opinion is that if a person desires a sexual preference reversal he should be free and able to obtain one.

 

What I think is being expressed here by some is that even if people wish to overcome their homosexuality psychologists should not treat them for their complaint. That troubles me a bit because I feel sure that if I start behaving like a homosexual I would want to get some professional help for it. Maybe I had head trauma from an auto accident, or maybe I ate something bad that messed around with my hypothalamus. Should I be OK with a psychologist who says, “There’s nothing I can do for you now, Larv, maybe you should just read a little Oscar Wilde and T. S. Eliot and accept your new sexual orientation”?

 

After reading all these good post here on either side of the argument I’ve decided that gay-to-straight therapy could be quite beneficial to some people. Therefore, I now think the APA is acting dictatorially by its edict to ban gay-to-straight therapy. If I had a son who complained that he was turning gay and said that it troubled him I would do whatever I could to help him out. I honestly don’t think I could encourage him to just accept his tendencies toward homosexuality. I would do what I could to preserve his heterosexuality…up to a point. If I thought that any further encouragement to retain his heterosexuality would harm him somehow then I would simple capitulate and accept his homosexuality. And I would love him just as much as if he were straight like me.

 

In effect, I think, the APA, by way of its new ruling, is doing the bidding of the homosexual community. I’m not entirely comfortable with that.

 

Would you want the APA to tell you that psychologists shouldn't treat a mental condition that you might wish to be ameliorated? Should the APA also ban treatments for tendencies toward polygamy, incest, and other sexual-orientation disorders?

[InfiniteNow]

Two rivers of opinion are running countercurrent here. One opinion is that psychologists should not try to treat a person who desires a gay-to-straight conversion, but instead consul him (can’t speak for females, of course) to accept what nature has bestowed upon him. The other opinion is that if a person desires a sexual preference reversal he should be free and able to obtain one.

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet (oh... wait... I've explained this like ten or twelve times already myself), but you are not working from an accurate understanding of what the APA has said.

 

They said that gay-to-straight conversions through therapy don't work.

They said that it is dangerous to give people the false sense that it can work.

They said that therapists should be honest with their patients and ensure they understand it is not likely to work.

They said that they need to focus on mental health outcomes which have a chance at working, such as training them how to accept who they are, how to better integrate with society, and how to make their lives more aligned with their biological drives in the safest possible way.

 

 

It's not about denying a person who truly wants to change their sexual preference. It's about being honest with them that therapy is not likely to achieve that goal. Why is this so difficult for you to grasp?

 

 

 

What I think is being expressed here by some is that even if people wish to overcome their homosexuality psychologists should not treat them for their complaint. That troubles me a bit because I feel sure that if I start behaving like a homosexual I would want to get some professional help for it.

And perhaps you'd be less troubled if you absorbed the points I've just made above. Nobody is saying not to treat people. They are saying that there are only certain outcomes which can be achieved through treatment, and a change in ones sexual preference is simply not one of them. Good grief, man.

 

 

 

After reading all these good post here on either side of the argument I’ve decided that gay-to-straight therapy could be quite beneficial to some people.

And, you've come to this conclusion AFTER reading the posts here? Are you reading the same posts I am reading?

 

 

Therefore, I now think the APA is acting dictatorially by its edict to ban gay-to-straight therapy.

 

<...>

 

In effect, I think, the APA, by way of its new ruling, is doing the bidding of the homosexual community. I’m not entirely comfortable with that.

Okay, I think we're done here.

[Larv]

InfinitreNow, I have posted only honest opinions here, and I have provided well-thought-out and honest reasons for my opinions. What I am finding by posting to threads like this one is that some of those who hold different opinions cannot manage their emotions well enough to contribute rationally to the debate. You, in particular, are unable to see rationally through the furious red in your eyes.

 

My god, man! Do you want me to lie to you just to make you feel better?

[TheBigDog]

They said that gay-to-straight conversions through therapy don't work.

They said that it is dangerous to give people the false sense that it can work.

They said that therapists should be honest with their patients and ensure they understand it is not likely to work.

They said that they need to focus on mental health outcomes which have a chance at working, such as training them how to accept who they are, how to better integrate with society, and how to make their lives more aligned with their biological drives in the safest possible way.

 

It's not about denying a person who truly wants to change their sexual preference. It's about being honest with them that therapy is not likely to achieve that goal. Why is this so difficult for you to grasp?

 

And perhaps you'd be less troubled if you absorbed the points I've just made above. Nobody is saying not to treat people. They are saying that there are only certain outcomes which can be achieved through treatment, and a change in ones sexual preference is simply not one of them.

Do you see the conflict in your statements? To a person seeking change the gap between "will not" and "not likely" is huge. The question is the nature of the various methods of therapy, and the fact that some of those therapies are poisoning the others. Not all are the tools of religious fanatics. Not all are brainwashing. The fact that some are cannot be held against the ones that are not. Many see their tendencies as being similar to an addiction rather than how they wish to perceive themselves. Telling them to just accept who they are is not the answer. You have indicated that there are therapeutic solutions. I feel that the wording of the report is such that it does a disservice to those seeking help in understanding what their options are.

 

Bill

[Theory5]

InfinitreNow, I have posted only honest opinions here, and I have provided well-thought-out and honest reasons for my opinions. What I am finding by posting to threads like this one is that some of those who hold different opinions cannot manage their emotions well enough to contribute rationally to the debate. You, in particular, are unable to see rationally through the furious red in your eyes.

 

My god, man! Do you want me to lie to you just to make you feel better?

 

Jeez, Larv. I think some people might find your posts a bit on the offensive side. Especially the one you made beforehand. Particularly

What I think is being expressed here by some is that even if people wish to overcome their homosexuality psychologists should not treat them for their complaint. That troubles me a bit because I feel sure that if I start behaving like a homosexual I would want to get some professional help for it. Maybe I had head trauma from an auto accident, or maybe I ate something bad that messed around with my hypothalamus. Should I be OK with a psychologist who says, “There’s nothing I can do for you now, Larv, maybe you should just read a little Oscar Wilde and T. S. Eliot and accept your new sexual orientation”?

And

In effect, I think, the APA, by way of its new ruling, is doing the bidding of the homosexual community. I’m not entirely comfortable with that.

 

 

Then there is this part:

Would you want the APA to tell you that psychologists shouldn't treat a mental condition that you might wish to be ameliorated? Should the APA also ban treatments for tendencies toward polygamy, incest, and other sexual-orientation disorders?

 

Where you put polygamy in the same catagory as incest, and you label everything a

sexual-orientation disorder

which is pretty ...backwards... for somebody of your intellegence (based on some of your better posts). You seem to consider homosexuality as a mental illness, and that in itself is ignorant and low-brow.

Incest is an illness that should be treated, yes, but polygamy is not even close to it, and its not an illness of anysort. In todays modern world (USA, Canada, UK) we prefer monogamy, and even though it cuts down advil's sales :-P its the norm. But monogamy isnt the norm but it still should be an option. Im talking about a love triangle, not one guy married to a harem of women. The fact is, that its not an illness and should not be considered as such and doesnt need treatment.

[InfiniteNow]

Do you see the conflict in your statements? To a person seeking change the gap between "will not" and "not likely" is huge.

Well, I guess it sure is a good thing then that I was already abundantly clear about the issue back in post #39 so there is no confusion.

 

 

The question is the nature of the various methods of therapy, and the fact that some of those therapies are poisoning the others. Not all are the tools of religious fanatics. Not all are brainwashing.

I never said either of those things. Do you know what a strawman is? Or, perhaps you are confusing my posts with those of someone else? Either way, you chose to quote me, and your response simply does not apply to the posts I've made.

 

 

The fact that some are cannot be held against the ones that are not. Many see their tendencies as being similar to an addiction rather than how they wish to perceive themselves. Telling them to just accept who they are is not the answer.

Again, the APA has advocated no such thing. If you wish to continue arguing against things which only exist in your head and which don't exist in reality, then be my guest.

[Larv]

But, Theory, if you will kindly notice in those statements of mine that you criticize, I was speaking only for myself under the imagination condition of taking on homosexual behavior and what I would want to do about it. I also was speaking only for myself when speculated about what I would do if my son turned gay.

 

Theory, if you can't handle an honest statement about what I would do in my personal life then you are blindly obsessed with your personal reaction to it.