Consensus in Politics

[jackson33]

questor; In reading your opening post, my mind ran to how many people in US history, could have said much the same for their times, with mild changes in statistics. My opinions would be identical to the post 2 by freestar, if #4 read, equal opportunity for any person.

 

As for 'consensus' in total; Do you really think that could be possible? I doubt any one States people, could agree with on what an optimum government should be, to that of any other state, much less the individuals in any one states for their own, nor should it be expected. Debate and compromise on National Interest, was the original intent and should continue to be the focus.

IMO, its the insertion into National Policy, matters that can not or could ever be addressed equally among the 50 states, that have caused a perceived inability to agree.

 

Some of your observations on current policy, are of course subjective to your personal political beliefs. I could just as easily, rant on things wrong from an interference of a 'Party Affiliations' interference or obstruction, which was in fact 'Buffy's' point (Newt Gingrich).

 

Infinite did make a good point (analogy), but not sure it was intended. Whether the President and his/her administration or members of the Congress or even the Supreme Court System, they all to some degree must work with each other, under the system. We have had leaders, including Washington and Eisenhower, who become president from a total control mentally and quite a few that progressed up from State Control or some business, but all presidential legacies have come from some form of successful ability to use, rather than fight the 'Three Branch' system of checks and balance. I might add, GWB has not been very good at this or at least its not apparent.

[questor]

Moontan, you asked:

''I know the ten commandments, I know which ones are laws, i asked which ones you think should be laws. If indeed only two are and should be laws why would you want to post them in government buildings? Especially courthouses?''

#6, #8 is my answer. Why do YOU think they have been posted in government buildings, especially courthouses?

[questor]

Zythryn, go back to post #26 in this thread. Answer those questions I asked if you expect anything more from me. Also get a dictionary, look up the words ''allow'' and '' indulge''.

[questor]

Jackson, will you list in your own words your requirements for what you consider an ideal society? So far no one here has done so.

[jackson33]

questor; Society or Government???

 

Why couldn't todays society be the ideal one for these times? Apathy is said from lack of concern and this comes to contentment. Every poll, I can recall, when personal satisfaction is mentioned the % satisfied is high. Sure gas prices are high, housing SEEMS to have problems and their are many issues argued daily, but in the end, most feel these problems will solve themselves. Might add, wanting more is perfectly normal, but not the driving force behind being content.

 

Government is somewhat different, BUT again people are content with their (State) government, their local county or city/town. My personal opinion, much the same for where I live and in my personal life.

 

Going back to your list, remember everything mentioned exist today but in degrees. Placing each on a scale 1-10 of what is, is a result of history or how we got to here. The many things I prefer NOT to see more of or would agree to more of are simply opinion. Reality is the cumulative opinions/actions over 240 years of what was, is or what will be. In the US, so long as the societies of most States agree on the common interest of the National Government, to a majority of issues and maintains the right, by elections, to change those interest the national society will hold together. Same for the world society.

[questor]

Jackson, I guess you are satisfied with today's social set-up? Do the attacks

on Christianity bother you? Will you be satisfied to live under a totally democrat government? Is the moral and cultural climate one that you admire?

Do you think our educational and job training system prepares us to compete

globally? Is there anything in our country you would change?

[Moontanman]

Moontan, you asked:

''I know the ten commandments, I know which ones are laws, i asked which ones you think should be laws. If indeed only two are and should be laws why would you want to post them in government buildings? Especially courthouses?''

#6, #8 is my answer. Why do YOU think they have been posted in government buildings, especially courthouses?

 

Maybe they wanted to make the lawyers uncomfortable? or maybe the religious rights agenda is to eventually make all ten commandments law? I think a lot of the religious right actually thinks the only place the laws and morals of our society have and should come from is the Ten commandments. They are too caught up in their religion to realize our laws are rooted in rules the human race has been trying to enforce ever since we started living in groups way before the advent of the organized religions we have now.

[questor]

''Maybe they wanted to make the lawyers uncomfortable?'' Is this a serious answer? How woulld the TC make lawyers uncomfortable?

 

'' maybe the religious rights agenda is to eventually make all ten commandments law? I think a lot of the religious right actually thinks the only place the laws and morals of our society have and should come from is the Ten commandments. They are too caught up in their religion to realize our laws are rooted in rules the human race has been trying to enforce ever since we started living in groups way before the advent of the organized religions we have now.''

Is there a movement to make all TC law? I have not heard of this. Do you know which rights group is leading this movement?

Where would you say the moral rules and customs we live by came from?

 

Do you think we should ask Europe, Asia, Egypt and Israel to remove all religious carvings and historical religious artifacts from any public buildings so as not to offend American tourists?

[Moontanman]

By Questor ''Maybe they wanted to make the lawyers uncomfortable?'' Is this a serious answer? How woulld the TC make lawyers uncomfortable?

 

No it's not serious, it's the punch line of an old joke that's been going around the Internet ever since that stupid TC thing at that state house down south, lighten up a little dude. I am sorry i didn't include a smiley on that but it was a very old joke:hihi:

 

'' maybe the religious rights agenda is to eventually make all ten commandments law? I think a lot of the religious right actually thinks the only place the laws and morals of our society have and should come from is the Ten commandments. They are too caught up in their religion to realize our laws are rooted in rules the human race has been trying to enforce ever since we started living in groups way before the advent of the organized religions we have now.''

Is there a movement to make all TC law? I have not heard of this. Do you know which rights group is leading this movement?

 

Actually this part was only a little tongue in cheek, I have heard repeatedly that the religious right wants to insert religion into government in every way they can, this comes mostly from the evangelical movement but all the fundamentalists have brought this up from time to time. as far as I know this is the extent of the organization but I keep hearing from the very people who want this change to take place. From the pulpit......

 

Where would you say the moral rules and customs we live by came from?

 

They come from our efforts to live together in a reasonable society. The starting point is way to far back in time to know when and where it started but one thing is for sure it didn't originate in the bible!

 

Do you think we should ask Europe, Asia, Egypt and Israel to remove all religious carvings and historical religious artifacts from any public buildings so as not to offend American tourists?

 

Questor, sure we should ask other cultures we have no control, of or reason to think we can control to change their own laws when we can't even agree on our own. Get real dude, I can't even see how this idea even relates to what we are talking about.

[REASON]

questor,

 

Maybe you'd be willing to define what you mean by "consensus in politics."

 

Are you just talking about a majority opinion about politics? Is our system of government not already based on a majority of opinion?

[questor]

The reality to me is that the religious right has no real strength in this increasingly secular country. It would be foolish to think they could make or change any laws by themselves.

The reality to me is that I can't see why people are afraid of having their countries' historical mottos or religious inscriptions on public buildings. Does this create a threat to your life, liberty or property? Do the traditions of your country upset you? Would you remove all vestiges of our collective past?

Would you outlaw the practice of Christianity? Islam? Judaism? Catholicism?

Do you think judicial decisions would be affected by the presence of the TC?

[questor]

Reason, tell me why we are involved in sematic minutiae? Why are these ideas so interesting to you? Tell me what you really want to know and why. Is this more exciting to you than spending a like amount of time learning new theories and scientific facts?

[REASON]

Reason, tell me why we are involved in sematic minutiae? Why are these ideas so interesting to you? Tell me what you really want to know and why. Is this more exciting to you than spending a like amount of time learning new theories and scientific facts?

 

It's called "Definition of Terms." It helps people understand what point you are trying to make with this thread.

 

Can we come to a consensus as to what you mean when you say "consensus," or are you just going to try and dissuade me from participating in your thread?

 

 

Tip: It would be very helpful toward reading your posts if you would learn to select someone's text and click the quote button from the palette above your typing window so we can more easily distinguish what you are saying from what someone else has stated.

[InfiniteNow]

The reality to me is that the religious right has no real strength in this increasingly secular country.

Thank Thor for that. :)

 

I can only hope that trend continues. :shrug:

[Moontanman]

The reality to me is that the religious right has no real strength in this increasingly secular country. It would be foolish to think they could make or change any laws by themselves.

 

I know you are not naive enough to believe that, the religious right has great power, they pretty much were the deciding force that elected the idiot stick we have as president right now. He used them to further his and Haliburtons agenda. The religious right has great influence in the country. With out the opposition of the left and the middle these people would change this country into a theocracy in a heart beat. To say this country is increasingly secular seems to say this advance hasn't come with out a fight. the battle is far from over and we need to make sure the power of religion is limited to where it belongs, in the church and out of our government.

 

 

The reality to me is that I can't see why people are afraid of having their countries' historical mottos or religious inscriptions on public buildings. Does this create a threat to your life, liberty or property? Do the traditions of your country upset you? Would you remove all vestiges of our collective past?

Would you outlaw the practice of Christianity? Islam? Judaism? Catholicism?

Do you think judicial decisions would be affected by the presence of the TC?

 

Fear has nothing to do with it, it has to do with the government not saying one religion is THE religion. as for the traditions of our country, religion has hi jacked the idea of traditions to try and say religion is the reason we are here and enjoy the freedoms we now have. The reality is the fight against religion and it's harsher interpretations is the reason we have the great country we are living in. Our founding fathers recognized this and did all they could to defang religion. Churches should be limited in power, no tax exemptions, no laws supporting religion in anyway. I come from a region where 40 years ago you couldn't buy food on Sunday much less anything else, alcohol could not be sold at all, the streets were practically rolled up at six in the afternoon. Religious based ordinances were all over the books from sex to what you could buy and sell. It's been an uphill battle to stop these silly religious laws. so don't tell me religion has no grip on our society, I know better and so do you!

[jackson33]

Jackson, I guess you are satisfied with today's social set-up? Do the attacks

on Christianity bother you? Will you be satisfied to live under a totally democrat government? Is the moral and cultural climate one that you admire?

Do you think our educational and job training system prepares us to compete

globally? Is there anything in our country you would change?

 

There will always be attacks. As an agnostic, YES attacks on the basic religious foundation of my counrty bothers me. However it was their intension and mine, that government should be not only limited, but silent in peoples theological beliefs. Believe me, those founders were no less religious than you...

 

Cultural climate; I am an old guy and remember when the 'Rat Pack' (Frank, Dino and Sammy) was going to corrupt America, when Elvis dared to shake his hips or the Beatles with their long hair were going to destroy all there was. Well all three still dominate the Music Industry, the country has moved onward and upward, with no destruction. As for sex, the usual link to immoral, its part of life and will be FOREVER.

 

Democratic government, as in party affiliation. No, I won't be happy in that event and fight against it every day, on forums and in public debates. As mentioned, I have faith in the system and if held to, the public (electorate) will bring politics back down to earth.

 

Democratic, as in the American Constitution. We are a Representative Republic, as founded and under our Constitution. This is not going to change and again, my sincere feeling is the public will remember these principles, long before DEMOCRATIC Rule ever controls the Union of 50 States.

 

On the basic educational system, I agree the Government Schools, now less than 50% of k-12 education and a declining advanced educational system are trying to advance an agenda. Frankly, man caused global warming and/or mankind's place on this planet are under attack daily. Believe me, at this point and in my opinion, there is nothing obvious to me, that will change the spirit, that has preserved this country for those 240 years. Its been tried many times before...

 

I suppose, if offered the power, there would be things I would change. Unfortunately, these changes would mean nothing. Its up to the people and the demographics of the time, that can and WILL do this.

[Zythryn]

Questor, you still have not answered my original question. However, in an effort to get you to clarify your statement, I will be happy to answer you questions:

1. What code of moral behavior do you live by?

Most concisely? I would state it as a mixure of 'Do no harm' and 'Treat others as you would like to be treated'. I would also throw in a touch of a desire to leave this planet/society better than when I arrived.

 

2. Do you think there should be any curbs on human behavior?

Most certainly. I don't believe anyone should do harm to another human.

3. How should the curbs be enforced?

That is an excellent question. I don't have an ideal method of enforcement. I do believe more effort spent in prevention through education, support and family will pay off large dividends in lessening the number of 'infractions'.

4. Do you enjoy being around public displays of affection?

Within limits, I find them refreshing and beautiful. A wonderful example of humanity and far prefer them over public displays of violence and hate.

5. Would you enjoy seeing your parents marching in the San Francisco parade?

Hehe, I would have to say that I would find very little more humorous than that. And if they wanted to show support for peace and happiness in that way, I would fully approve:)