Consensus in Politics

[Galapagos]

Will this planet be better when people parade naked down the streets with pierced nipples, tattoos, and other adornments. When people are making out in public? Tell me how this improves society?

It won't make the place better or worse, it's a matter of cultural preference.

 

There are some societies in which people are naked(or nearly naked), and others in which people cover themselves with tatoos, and it doesn't seem to be directly limiting/harming their way of life. And as for your other objections about people "making out in public"... have you ever been to Canada, or Europe? Both of these places are known for their social acceptance of public displays of affection, in contrast with countries like Indonesia and Saudi Arabia, where it is very much not accepted.

It's also interesting to note that much more partial nudity is allowed on television in Europe, and I think they actually try to tone down the violence(in comparison to America) more frequently(which is completely futile according to studies demonstrating no link between consumption of violent media and actual violent behavior), which is apparently the opposite strategy of the American public(condemn sexuality/nudity, allow violence).

 

My point is that people from different cultures have different values, and as long as they are not harmful, there isn't really anything wrong with them.

[questor]

Moontan, the people at the top don't care whether you are successful or not.

It's not that they don't like you, it's just that they are busy trying to take care of their own future. It is not their job to take care of you or me. That job belongs to the individual himself. I have had the good and the bad also, I was not born wealthy, and I don't consider myself wealthy now. I do consider myself successful in that I am happy and financially comfortable. If you look to others to make you succesful you are doomed to be a failure. You can only do it for yourself. That is one big problem for liberals, they want you to believe that the government will steal money from those greedy bastards and give it to you. What a way to live your life, on some one else's earnings. Why do you live in a small town?

[REASON]

Sure seems tough to find consensus in politics, huh questor? Particularly when people are sticking to their guns and demonizing those with different points of view. This thread serves as a good example of the problems we are experiencing in our society today. Polarization continues to be a significant barrier to finding a consensus.

 

I think a big part of the problem is that people tend to isolate themselves in a particular mindset and steer information to support their particular point of view. And there are plenty of information peddlers out there to feed it. It becomes necessary and is taught to highlight the differences among us and take a stand against those who are not like us. People are going out of their way to put a microscope on every variation from their established norm, and failing to consider the ways in which we are alike and can find common ground in an effort to establish respect and consideration for one another.

 

I believe that those who lock themselves in a onesided mentality, seeking only to rally support around an ideology with the intent to demonize people with different beliefs or cultures, are out of balance, and are contrary to any notion of finding a consensus among the populus toward the betterment of society, whether relating to politics or any other controversial topic.

 

If I were to believe that the path to consensus among people in a civilized society is either my way or the highway, then I would be an arrogant and ignorant fool.

[Zythryn]

Very well said Reason, I'd rep you if I could:)

[Moontanman]

Moontan, do you have children? Would your family agree with you on this:

''Questor you really don't get it do you? all the stuff you are afraid of would not happen if sex wasn't so strongly stifled in our society. these people who want to parade around and shock people like you wouldn't want to if it wasn't considered bad. As for all the porn it is a symptom of a repressed society, sex is so popular because it is suppressed. It's also the reason sexual images of the young and beautiful are so popular in every aspect of our society. You don't see that stuff in naturist communities, no one is interested. But no i don't think that everyone should go naked I just think that concentrating so much effort into preventing it causes it.''

Is it possible people could still have a normal sexual life if we didn't have people parading around naked? The basic question is: what is the good of it?

does it improve society? Is it good for kids? Couldn't it just as easily be done in private?

 

Yes my immediate family would agree with me, I also have children, and who are you to assume you know what a normal sexual life is? Normal is what is normal to you and your cultural norms. what i am trying to get across to you is there are other ways to live and they are not bad or good just different. We on the other hand tend to send mixed signals to our own people about sex. we tell our children not to have sex but we allow the glorification of both sex and youth and bombard our whole society with these images. then we get upset when sex breaks out of the boundaries we set. Sex is not unnatural, nudity is not unnatural. suppression of both is unnatural and the conflicting messages we send in our society are actually harmful. Nudity is no big deal, no one is injured by nudity but suppression of nudity and the sale of nudity as a means to sell everything from food to autos is bad. If we were more accepting of nudity and didn't make a big deal of it then it would be more difficult to use in ways the hurt our society. suppression of sexuality is always a bad thing, we are sexual beings, the US is more repressive sexually than most cultures, some or more suppressive and those cultures are usually where women are abused the most. The things we use to suppress our sexuality actually cause it to stand out even more than it would if we didn't try to hide our bodies and our need for sex. Nudity, real nudity and not the stylized stuff marketed to us by magazines and other media sources is not sexy. Only by hiding behind reveling clothing can most people maintain the illusions of sexy. Our idea of sexuality is based on lies and illusion, is not wonder it causes us so much trouble when we must confront it directly?

[questor]

Moontan, you seem to have a fixation on sex. You must think about it a lot. I don't think contemplating and wishing for nudity furthers one's business opprtunities. The norms of our society require we wear clothes. I accept that and don't worry myself about it. The time spent each day thinking about nudity could definitely be put to better use. Since most of our citizens are overweight, I see little beauty in excess flab, hairiness, warts, and other

signs of physical imperfection. Go to the mall, look at the people, ask yourself if you would like to see this crowd without clothes.

[questor]

Reason, you're correct in much of what you say. Maybe now you're getting a glimmer of understanding about brain wiring. Maybe as you mature your ideas will change. My idea of a good society is one where people have self reliance, decency, good morals, good taste in music, literature, discipline in their daily activities, and a desire for education and to contribute to society. I don't see much of this today.

[Zythryn]

Reason, you're correct in much of what you say. Maybe now you're getting a glimmer of understanding about brain wiring. Maybe as you mature your ideas will change.

Emphasis added by me.

Questor, if the way we think is controled by our 'wiring' (and not the other way around) how is it you think the way Reason thinks will change?

[Overdog]

.... I was not born wealthy,...

 

But you were born naked.

[nutronjon]

Nutron, try to calm down. Perhaps you've had a little too much of that morning coffee, because this is comming across as a bit incoherrent...

 

Could you re-state, please?

 

It looks I am the subject of that post, not what I said. In fact, I have read it a few times, and don't know what it is you want me to re-state. Can you identify what it is you think I should re-state?

[nutronjon]

Moontan, the people at the top don't care whether you are successful or not.

It's not that they don't like you, it's just that they are busy trying to take care of their own future. It is not their job to take care of you or me. That job belongs to the individual himself. I have had the good and the bad also, I was not born wealthy, and I don't consider myself wealthy now. I do consider myself successful in that I am happy and financially comfortable. If you look to others to make you succesful you are doomed to be a failure. You can only do it for yourself. That is one big problem for liberals, they want you to believe that the government will steal money from those greedy bastards and give it to you. What a way to live your life, on some one else's earnings. Why do you live in a small town?

 

One of the main functions of government is the collection and distribution of wealth. Just yesterday, I read the main reason England was so interested in the New World colonies is they needed to get rid of the mass of unpropertied people. England was invaded a couple of times, and the invaders took the property and turned the inhabitants into landless workers, as has been common throughout history. When England's land owners were mostly farmers they needed the laborers, so the system worker fairly well. But when European weavers began demanding wool, the land owners switched from farming to raising sheep, and no longer needed the labor. This left a mass of landless people without places to live and without work. What kind of government would allow such a thing? Then mind you, turn around and ask these same people to get on ships and defend England at sea and over seas? Then when the people are no longer needed for war, ignore their needs. I know this has how things have been done, but I don't think highly of those who think this is how government should direct things. But you see, I am a US citizen, and we fought a revolution against England.

[Moontanman]

Moontan, you seem to have a fixation on sex. You must think about it a lot. I don't think contemplating and wishing for nudity furthers one's business opprtunities. The norms of our society require we wear clothes. I accept that and don't worry myself about it. The time spent each day thinking about nudity could definitely be put to better use. Since most of our citizens are overweight, I see little beauty in excess flab, hairiness, warts, and other

signs of physical imperfection. Go to the mall, look at the people, ask yourself if you would like to see this crowd without clothes.

 

Yeah, you are correct questor, I spend all my time in locker rooms looking at naked people. I would hate to violate the laws of the universe and allow people to go around naked, especially all those imperfect ugly people. Hey! Can pretty people go around Naked? Can I be judge who is pretty and who is too ugly to take off their clothes? I know I'll go to the mall and tell everyone who is pretty questor says it's ok for them to go naked and just god smack the ugly people if they protest. You really don't have a clue dude and I'm tired of giving them to you so I'll just go with my main guideline for debate and declare you the wienner in this discussion.

[Moontanman]

But you were born naked.

 

Yeah but they saw his nakedness and covered it up before anyone could be offended and maybe destroy western civilization.

[nutronjon]

Moontan, do you have children? Would your family agree with you on this:

''Questor you really don't get it do you? all the stuff you are afraid of would not happen if sex wasn't so strongly stifled in our society. these people who want to parade around and shock people like you wouldn't want to if it wasn't considered bad. As for all the porn it is a symptom of a repressed society, sex is so popular because it is suppressed. It's also the reason sexual images of the young and beautiful are so popular in every aspect of our society. You don't see that stuff in naturist communities, no one is interested. But no i don't think that everyone should go naked I just think that concentrating so much effort into preventing it causes it.''

Is it possible people could still have a normal sexual life if we didn't have people parading around naked? The basic question is: what is the good of it?

does it improve society? Is it good for kids? Couldn't it just as easily be done in private?

 

Oh my, I think this subject should be a different thread. Sex is also about domination and many emotions besides love. We frown on 17 years having affairs with 12 year olds, or 19 year olds inappropriately touching children in a day care center, and teachers molesting students, or allowing students to molest them. It is my understanding that sexual victimization, and sexual exploitation of children is on the Internet and anyone can down load it, including impressionable young boys. Considering our sexual behavior is a matter of imprinting, rather than hard wiring, such sexual exposure can result in a permanent imprinting. Then we have adults who crave the sexual stimulation of this imprint, and some of them go on to vicitimize others. I think there is a cause and effect thing, that we can determine scientifically and might want to consider when developing a consensus regarding sexual matters.

 

Now in one case of violating the universal taboo against fathers having sex with their daughters, is an African tribe where the men hunt rhinos. This is extremely dangereous and having sex with a daughter is thought to strengthen the man, so it is condoned. For a time in China rulers were allowed to torture people for their sexual pleasure, because agains this sexual stimulation was thought to make the males stronger. We don't condone torture for sexually reasons, but it does happen, and I hope we never have a consense that it is okay. Point being sexual activity involves more than love.

[Moontanman]

Oh my, I think this subject should be a different thread. Sex is also about domination and many emotions besides love. We frown on 17 years having affairs with 12 year olds, or 19 year olds inappropriately touching children in a day care center, and teachers molesting students, or allowing students to molest them. It is my understanding that sexual victimization, and sexual exploitation of children is on the Internet and anyone can down load it, including impressionable young boys. Considering our sexual behavior is a matter of imprinting, rather than hard wiring, such sexual exposure can result in a permanent imprinting. Then we have adults who crave the sexual stimulation of this imprint, and some of them go on to vicitimize others. I think there is a cause and effect thing, that we can determine scientifically and might want to consider when developing a consensus regarding sexual matters.

 

Now in one case of violating the universal taboo against fathers having sex with their daughters, is an African tribe where the men hunt rhinos. This is extremely dangereous and having sex with a daughter is thought to strengthen the man, so it is condoned. For a time in China rulers were allowed to torture people for their sexual pleasure, because agains this sexual stimulation was thought to make the males stronger. We don't condone torture for sexually reasons, but it does happen, and I hope we never have a consense that it is okay. Point being sexual activity involves more than love.

 

Nutron, you miss the point of this argument, sex between adults and children should not be condoned, no one is arguing that at all. It's the suppression of sex that leads to all the perversions of sex. Sexual images could not be sold or used to influence people if we were more honest about sex and nudity. Nudity doesn't lead to sex, honesty about sex doesn't lead to perversion. It's dishonestly and repression that allows sex to be used in ways we all disprove of. The obsession and exploitation of the beautiful young naked female form isn't natural. Suppression of sexuality is what makes this exploitation possible. I don't think everyone should go around naked but nudity isn't the sexual turn on people think it is. what most people think of when they think naked it really a stylized sex charged perversion of nudity. Real people naked isn't a sexual turn on, it actually defuses the whole sexual response. Have you ever thought of how silly it is to see women so differently from men in clothing? why should women be compelled to cover their chests but men do not? Is it because breasts are a sexual organ? No they are not, not any more than a mans are. Covering them is what makes them part of sexual fantasy. You are correct our sexual response is to some extent imprinted and that imprinting in our society is that sex is bad, needs to be hidden, and nudity is something it's bad to see or to even think of. but there is a part of sex that is hard wired and this hard wiring is almost completely opposite the imprinted message of sex in our society. This conflict causes much of the destructive sexuality in our society. When you suppress a basic biological urge it will manifest it's self in other often destructive ways. I don't think we should hijack this thread any more this has gone far beyond it's original point. If anyone is interested i will create a thread for this discussion. Let me know if this discussion needs to go on.

[Overdog]

...Can you identify what it is you think I should re-state?

 

We can not have a consensus on this, because the common man doesn't have a glue what is happening. He is voting out of self interest and is not the political animal we need to be in the modern world, where we can destroy a country in a few hours, without distrubing our morning coffee. This high tech military capability has taken the our war machine out of the hands of the people, and puts it in the hands of industrialist.

 

I cannot make sense of this. I can guess that you meant "clue" and not "glue", but I do not understand what you are saying when you say a "high tech military capability" takes our "war machine out of the hands of the people, and puts it in the hands of industrialist."

[nutronjon]

Sure seems tough to find consensus in politics, huh questor? Particularly when people are sticking to their guns and demonizing those with different points of view. This thread serves as a good example of the problems we are experiencing in our society today. Polarization continues to be a significant barrier to finding a consensus.

 

I think a big part of the problem is that people tend to isolate themselves in a particular mindset and steer information to support their particular point of view. And there are plenty of information peddlers out there to feed it. It becomes necessary and is taught to highlight the differences among us and take a stand against those who are not like us. People are going out of their way to put a microscope on every variation from their established norm, and failing to consider the ways in which we are alike and can find common ground in an effort to establish respect and consideration for one another.

 

I believe that those who lock themselves in a onesided mentality, seeking only to rally support around an ideology with the intent to demonize people with different beliefs or cultures, are out of balance, and are contrary to any notion of finding a consensus among the populus toward the betterment of society, whether relating to politics or any other controversial topic.

 

If I were to believe that the path to consensus among people in a civilized society is either my way or the highway, then I would be an arrogant and ignorant fool.

 

Well, I guess it has become worth being penalized for my position on God again. A nice thing about having a God is having a point of view that includes more that a personal point of view. That does not mean when we contemplate what God's point of view might be, that we are knowing God. It is more like standing on the mountain to see the valley, and what see and think is still human. It takes us out of ourselves when we consider a bigger point of view.

 

Now what goes with this in a democracy, is taking a scientific look at what we think. Scientifically, what can we know of the Laws of Nature? This what makes the studies on homosexuality so important. If people can no more change their sexuality than they can change the color of the skin, (other than getting a skin tan), then we are wrong to discriminate against homosexuals. If being sexual with a child, somehow harms the child, than it is wrong to allow adults to be sexual with children. I am thinking of the girls who have no bladder control because a male had sex with them when they were to undeveloped and small to accommendate a penius. And I am thinking of a male child who was introduced to sex by a male baby sitter and as an adult lost his child and was treated as a pervert, because he is one. He is definitely more sexually attracted to children than he is attracted to women, and personally I don't think this is a good thing. Some of this stuff we can determine through science.

 

We now know the area of the brain for judgment is still developing until age 25, and this clearly means children should not be treated as adults in the court room nor in prison and our justice system is not based this science and needs to be changed.

 

So there are two points:

 

1. The acceptence of God is important to a broader point of view, and more humble perspective, than I am right and you are wrong, which is the result of having a very small point of view.

 

2. We need to study the Laws of Nature with science, and base our laws on the Laws of Nature.