Consensus in Politics

[questor]

The USA is in a bit of trouble. We are fighting two wars overseas, we have an

energy problem which threatens our economy and way of life, and we are about to elect a new president who may or may not be able to see us sucessfully through the next few years. All of this is compounded by a very unpopular president and a failing congress. Even more ominous, the huge countries of China and India are entering the energy demanding global economy. We are also a divided country internally, we are digesting hordes of immigrants with cultures and languages with which we are not familiar.

Our people are at odds with each other over their goals and aspirations, their likes and dislikes, and their view of what an optimum society should be like.

Consensus is necessary for peace and I would like to explore the possibility of consensus based upon reason and logic. I would like to present some questions for those of you willing to participate; to see if we can reach consensus.

The Society I would like to live in would emphasize:

1. Capitalism

2. Collectivism

3. Larger government to serve the citizen's needs

4. Equality of citizens

5. Political correctness

6. Biblical morality

7. Self reliance

8. Increased government regulation of large corporations

9. Government job creation

10. Hiring and pay raises based solely on merit.

 

You can cut and paste this on a reply window and mark answers with Y for yes, and N for no. I hope we can approach consensus.

[freeztar]

The Society I would like to live in would emphasize:

Y 1. Capitalism

N 2. Collectivism

N 3. Larger government to serve the citizen's needs

Y 4. Equality of citizens

N 5. Political correctness

N 6. Biblical morality

Y 7. Self reliance

* 8. Increased government regulation of large corporations

N 9. Government job creation

Y 10. Hiring and pay raises based solely on merit.

 

*I have mixed views about increased gov't regulation of corporations. Environmentally, I say "Yes!", but from a free market viewpoint, I say "No!". I'll not say any more on this because it could really be its own thread.

 

EDIT: I forgot to mention that I do not believe that consensus can occur in such large societies, nor should it.

[questor]

Thanks for your input. I think if everyone was educated to all facets of an issue, logical consensus would be possible. Emotional consensus is more difficult and you may be correct about that not being reachable.

[InfiniteNow]

I think if everyone was educated to all facets of an issue, logical consensus would be possible. Emotional consensus is more difficult and you may be correct about that not being reachable.

 

I think he's even more correct in asserting that it is not a goal we should even hope to strive toward.

[Zythryn]

Y 1. Capitalism

N 2. Collectivism

N 3. Larger government to serve the citizen's needs

Y 4. Equality of citizens

* 5. Political correctness

N 6. Biblical morality

Y 7. Self reliance

N 8. Increased government regulation of large corporations

Y 9. Government job creation

Y 10. Hiring and pay raises based solely on merit.

 

Some clarifications:

3. I think the government should aid in the well being of its citizens. I also believe that the government is plenty large to do this now. But it is innefficient and has the wrong (in my mind) priorities.

5. I don't think the government should have any job in dictating political correctness. I think that common courtesy in society should suffice. This is not the pervue (in my mind) of the government.

6. Heavens NO. I certainly don't want to see stonings of unruly high school boys or an 'eye for an eye' type of justice.

8. Increased regulation isn't needed, but corruption within government needs to be brought under control and business needs to be disentwined from the workings of the government.

9. Only in as much as building roads, hiring armed forces and other such government jobs.

[questor]

Infinite, why would this be true about consensus? Emotional issues that are not logical are the ones people fight over.

''I think he's even more correct in asserting that it is not a goal we should even hope to strive toward.''

[Moontanman]

Y 1. Capitalism

N 2. Collectivism

N 3. Larger government to serve the citizen's needs

Y 4. Equality of citizens

N 5. Political correctness

N 6. Biblical morality

Y/M 7. Self reliance

Y/M 8. Increased government regulation of large corporations

N 9. Government job creation

Y/N 10. Hiring and pay raises based solely on merit.

 

#6 Biblical morality is a very bad way to go, we should avoid any religious connection with government and our laws. If you want to follow Biblical laws then you can but it should never be mandatory. The only given laws should be do not kill, do not steal, Do not take advantage of children, do not pollute, Do not endanger others through your actions.

 

#7 while I believe in self reliance i do not think that people who are at the bottom of the pile so to speak should be left to die. some help should be extended to those who have tried and failed or those who want to try.

 

#8 corporations should always be watched, they do have a tendency to get out of hand but regulations should be minimal.

 

#10, there should be a decent minimum wage, corporations should not be able to take advantage of workers but workers should have some incentive to go for the top instead of simply accepting the bottom because it's a good living.

 

I also think there should be a #11 government should stay out of peoples lives. what i do in my own time and home is my business and no one else's as long as I don't endanger anyone else. things like Social "wars" on made up problems to allow the government to expand it's powers and control the population through fear must be eliminated!

 

I also think the government should extend public education to at least four years of college for students who have the grades. No sports scholarships for dipsticks who cannot make the grade. If sports wants them let them be drafted when they leave high school. The aim of government should be to help people help themselves not give people a free ride. far too much of government is spent on giving away money to people who simply want to feed at the public trough, there should not be a public trough. government should be the business of serving the public by keeping up schools, the infrastructure, law enforcement, and defending the nation. anything else must be looked at with skepticism.

[Buffy]

1. Capitalism: Only those who have capital to risk really understand the value of money. Those who are not risking capital don't really have an interest in the outcome and their preferences are inherently suspect because they will argue for things that do not enhance the long-term benefit of society. These people tend to believe in:
   
2. Collectivism: which is a fancy way of saying people should be guaranteed a pleasant life without having to work for it. Mao's "iron rice bowl" is designed simply to justify that those who have the capital that is necessary to grow our economy are forced to give it up so that investment is impossible and that we all remain impoverished. In order to take this capital away from people who have worked hard to earn it through their own sweat and toil requires a:
   
3. Larger government to serve the citizen's needs: Unappreciated in the logic of this argument is the very correct notion that to completely redistribute wealth requires that those who wish to do some work to occupy their day--as opposed to those who would prefer that their welfare checks are deposited automatically while they are at the beach scoring crack--need to have jobs which can be paid for by the worthless overhead of government services. So while the unassailable need for unrestricted spending on the military that is required to keep the populace on a knife's edge of paranoia regarding the dangers which threaten our Christian Nation and the impurification of our precious bodily fluids, it is also necessary to fund this overhead in order to maintain the appearance of an ongoing threat at home from the "minorities" that constitute this lower third of society who can be branded as the base of the Communis--er, Democrat Party in an attempt to keep them out of power. In order to do this it is essential to maintain the fiction that there is:
   
4. Equality of citizens: but of course we know that Christian citizens are more equal than others. When the Democrat Party starts to make unfounded accusations that this is twisting the facts, we of course can then brand them as hypocrites of:
   
5. Political correctness: This is a plague in our current society which enforces a singular belief in an absolute "truth" about what is right and wrong about human behavior, which Orwellian Newspeak for moral relativism, being used to justify homosexuality, equal rights for women and other perversions of the true word of God. It often tries to claim that somehow man's treatment of his fellow man is driven toward acceptance and mutual assistance by the need for survival of the society, when it is obvious that the only thing that is keeping us from blowing each other up is:
   
6. Biblical morality: Obviously morals cannot exist without the moral authority of the Bible as shown by the fact that all Muslims support the murder of Christian and Jewish people. As shown by the increasing crime rate in inner cities which is perfectly inversely correlated with the decline in not only prayer but Christmas carols and the persecution of individual students showing personal demonstrations of faith, it is necessary to reinstitute more formal Biblical Morality in order to--especially in Black neighborhoods--promote:
   
7. Self reliance: Unfortunately due to generations of youths being brought up to believe in government handouts and the strong promotion of drug use by the Democrat party through programs such as needle exchange--excused utterly falsely as a program to reduce the spread of AIDS which is exclusively caused by acts of perversion--the only way to bring about self-reliance in society is to require "Workfare" with real penalties, where shiftless layabouts, drug addicts and gang members are incarcerated if they are unwilling to find jobs. In order to provide this enforcement, it will be necessary to reverse the Democrat Party's demand for:
   
8. Increased government regulation of large corporations: As we know, wealth can only be created by investment by the wealthy. If individuals who are behind in their house and credit card payments are to have any hope whatsoever of realizing the American Dream, it is important to strictly avoid all impediments to investment, ensuring that corporate taxes are fully repealed as double taxation because interest income is already taxed on individual, that taxes on individual investment are fully repealed because corporations already pay tax on their income, and that deficit spending is eliminated by calling out Pork Barrel expenditures in Democrat districts. Further, in order to eliminate competition for workers that would cause increases in wages--which as all economists will agree is the sole source for inflationary pressures--it is necessary to eliminate all:
   
9. Government job creation: except of course where such job creation consists of reducing taxes to corporations, which is the only proven mechanism for increasing employment. One of the key side effects of this is eliminating by far the largest employer where it is not the case that:
   
10. Hiring and pay raises (are) based solely on merit: It is obvious to anyone living in today's society that there is no discrimination of any type that exists in our country any more, and the Democrat principal of supporting reverse discrimination against people who are hardworking Christians, who do not belong to gangs, or take drugs, or illegally cross the border, or who think that staying at home and raising babies is a noble goal. If there really were a need for this sort of unfairness to the most moral and hardworking people of this country we would see most of the lower paying jobs being taken my minorities, which is not the case because they are too lazy to work. And we would not see so many women and blacks in positions of power in government and industry.
    

I hope this makes my beliefs clear.

 

It should be noted that this is completely in line with the beliefs of the silent majority of Americans represented by the Family Research Council, the Eagle Forum, the Concerned Women for America, the Project for the New American Century, and The Order, so in terms of the premise of this thread, it is necessary to accommodate these beliefs without compromise or it will lead to the destruction of our fair nation by definition.

 

I have been assured by a very knowing American of my acquaintance in London, that a young healthy child, well nursed, is, at a year old, a most delicious, nourishing, and wholesome food, :)

Buffy

[questor]

Bravo Buffy, you obviously spent a lot of time on this. I am suitably impressed with your knowledge and ability to articulate.

If you would not mind doing so, would you briefly describe a few of the most

important components of your optimum society?

[freeztar]

why would this be true about consensus?

 

True consensus means that everyone has the same beliefs and ideas about how things should run. This is dangerous imo. Given the plethora of various beliefs among humans, how is one to cope with inevitable dissent within society? How did Copernicus cope?

 

Emotional issues that are not logical are the ones people fight over.

''I think he's even more correct in asserting that it is not a goal we should even hope to strive toward.''

 

I don't think you can simply take any issue and logically "solve" it, even in the absence of emotion. The current US economy is a perfect example. How would one logically come to a *single* solution that is viable? The best answer (:rolleyes: ) is that there are many ways to come up with solutions to this problem based on logic, and some might turn out to be better than others. In other words, even if we have consensus on the logic, it is highly improbable that we will have consensus on the proposed solution.

 

There's more than one way to skin a cat.

[questor]

Freeztar, although I didn't say it plainly in my opening post, the consensus I'm looking for is on major issues like war, education, political correctness, our economic system, welfare, earmarks and other large budget items. Also ,it would be helpful if we could all reach consensus on what makes an optimum society? Wouldn't this pretty well set a template for nearly all issues?

You are correct in saying there will never be 100% agreement, but to live in peace,we must make an attempt.

[freeztar]

Freeztar, although I didn't say it plainly in my opening post, the consensus I'm looking for is on major issues like war, education, political correctness, our economic system, welfare, earmarks and other large budget items.

 

That's what I figured you meant.

 

Also ,it would be helpful if we could all reach consensus on what makes an optimum society?

 

It might, or it might not. I see it as a separate issue though. Perhaps the thread should be titled "What makes an optimum society?". Or, perhaps starting with that premise in a new thread might build to what I think you are working towards.

 

Wouldn't this pretty well set a template for nearly all issues?

 

I guess it would ideally, but is this what we really want, templates?

What about radical imagination that births new paradigms that redefine the templates, or do away with them altogether?

 

Geocentrism, as well as communism and a number of other idealistic templates, turned out to be either too idealistic, or just impossible.

 

You are correct in saying there will never be 100% agreement, but to live in peace,we must make an attempt.

 

I agree with you 100% on this! :cup:

 

Have you seen this thread? I urge you to read the whole thing. It is quite interesting and pertinent.

 

http://hypography.com/forums/community-polls/6360-i-want-world-peace-yes-no.html

 

Even in this small corner of the world we call Hypography, the bright minds that visit this forum can not come to a consensus about living in peace. (worth noting, I believe some people that posted in that thread are just being contrary for the sake of argument, but I also believe that certain posts opposing peace are genuine)

[Buffy]

Newt Gingrich made sure that compromise in politics is dead.

 

"You're free to have my opinion" is the current definition of "compromise" and I think this thread is an example of that tactic.

 

To those who it was not obvious to, yes, that's the point of my post above...

 

A conservative is a man who sits and thinks, mostly sits, :phones:

Buffy

[Zythryn]

You are correct in saying there will never be 100% agreement, but to live in peace,we must make an attempt.

 

I disagree strongly with that statement. I don't believe everyone has to agree/think the same in order for their to be peace.

I do think everyone needs to be respectful, or at the very least tolerant, of people with differing views.

[Overdog]

....It might, or it might not. I see it as a separate issue though. Perhaps the thread should be titled "What makes an optimum society?". Or, perhaps starting with that premise in a new thread might build to what I think you are working towards.

 

Or maybe "What would Utopia be like" would be a better title.

 

In a scientific approach to finding utopia, the Global Scenario Group, an international group of scientists founded by Paul Raskin, used scenario analysis and backcasting to map out a path to an environmentally sustainable and socially equitable future. Its findings suggest that a global citizens' movement is necessary to steer political, economic, and corporate entities toward this new sustainability paradigm.

 

Utopia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[questor]

Buffy, would you say that compromise is not to be desired? I think Newt did not kill compromise, that was done by his opponents and exists still today. Is this current political climate one to be proud of? I knew you would return to make sure we didn't really think you meant what you said above. I was sincere in asking you to describe the components of your optimum society.

[questor]

Zythryn, do you think we need to agree upon issues like war, terrorism, murder, pedophilia, incest, education, fairness, racism, honesty, crime, and morality, or is everything relative?