Guantanamo Bay: Shame on you, United States

[questor]

Boersun, you are mistaken. I do read your posts and this one I totally disagree with. Your points are the same I read every day in our liberal newspapers. Your disdain and blame America first attitude is that which a great number of our citizens follow. America is not perfect and our citizens generally recognize this fact, but we are not colonists. How would you describe our gain or reward from the first world war, second world war, Korean war, Vietnam war, Iraqi war?

Are you saying the US gains from protecting Israel from being eliminated?

Did your country jump in to save Rwanda or to stop any of the other wars in Africa? Does your country participate in foreign aid? Does your country help educate students from all over the world?

I don't recall George Bush burning the oil wells in Kuwait. I do remember Americans risking their lives to extinguish them.

I don't recall George Bush destroying the oil pipe lines in Iraq, I believe that was the terrorists. It was the Americans that tried to rebuild them.

I'm not going to rebut you point by point, but your comments about Hamas

give me a pretty clear idea of your mind set.

Your post shows about 10 paragraphs which I would call critical of America

and two small positive statements. I guess this makes you neutral.

Everyone has a right to his opinion. I do not think we are perfect, but I think we have tried harder with better intentions than any other country in history.

Yes, we defend our interests, who does not? Yes, we have made mistakes, but we have always helped rebuild the countries we warred with. We welcome the world into our country and protect them when they live here, we furnish free education and a chance to make a good life for themselves.

That's why ad hominem criticism from those who drink at our fountain of freedom and opportunity rubs me the wrong way.

[InfiniteNow]

That's why ad hominem criticism from those who drink at our fountain of freedom and opportunity rubs me the wrong way.

 

How does this sentiment work when it comes to the subject under discussion, namely our treatment of detainees at Guantanamo Bay and other secret prisons?

 

There is a blatant discontinuity and lack of alignment with the tone of your rhetoric, the content of your posts, and the actions/behaviors under discussion.

[questor]

I am not in favor of torture. I do like to have truthful information before discussing a subject. Tell me how many prisoners have been incarcerated? Why were they captured? How many have been tortured by Americans? I have heard many were sent back to their own countries. Tell me what torture methods were employed? I can't see how removal of clothing is torture. How many died or are incapacitated from their experience? What information was gathered? Was it useful? Did it save lives?

Will you agree that it is neccessary to know the facts on a subject before making up your mind? I would like to answer any questions you have on this subject.

[Michaelangelica]

Let me ask some questions:

1. In all of the articles quoted, is there one which explains the reason for the war on terror? I get the impression it is America's fault.

Fault for what?

How come 'fault' matters?

2. Is there any gratitude expressed for the American attempt to make the world safer for all nations?

How come you need gratitude?

"Gratitude" is a human to human emotion. Countries or organisations don't have it.

It is not certain that you have made things "safer'.

You may have made things worse.

3. Is there any gratitude expressed for America's attempt to help bring Iraq

into the modern world and have a government elected by the people?

Again you may have killed more Iraqis than Saddam. How is this better than leaving sleeping dogs lie?

Why pick out Saddam out of all the murderous dictators in the world?

What are you going to do about Pakistan. Keep pumping the money into it?

4. Is there any mention of the atrocities committed by the terrorists?

Yes they are bastards.

5. Is there any mention that most of the inhabitants of the prisons are truly bad people and would be killing innocents if not incarcerated?

That is an unproven assumption

6. Is there any recognition of the fact that many of these people have a better life in captivity than they had before?

Bull ****

7. Does anyone have one good word for America?

It's a great place I love it. Do you need more? If so, why?

Yes, it is obvious that America is hated by many foreigners and its own citizens in an unrelenting manner. I do not know if the Americans hate their

military, their goverment, their fellow citizens or themselves. My conservative friends do not look for excuses to denigrate their own country. They are disappointed in George Bush and tired of the war, but they recognize what is at stake for the world and the Middle East. The haters are mostly young people who have not had wartime experience or a good grasp of foreign policy. Hopefully, people may sometime learn to live in peace and without conflict. That day is not yet here and America has assumed the role of global protector. I think we should reliquish that role and let others fight their own battles. We make no friends by defending others. We will make friends with the victors. As for the self-haters, you live in a free country, able to travel and live as you please. Able to become wealthy if you choose, read any book, attend any theater, buy any car, own your own home, and enjoy free association with friends of your choice. Do you understand that billions of people would die trying to be where you are?

How long will you hate your own country?

Is this meaningless rant or am I missing something?

[questor]

There are cheerful people and there are spiteful, dyspeptic people. Spiteful people are usually unhappy or unfulfilled in their own lives and seek to criticise most things around them to assuage their own wounds. These people will ruin your day as well as their own. Start your day by talking to happy, upbeat people who enjoy life.

[Boerseun]

There are cheerful people and there are spiteful, dyspeptic people. Spiteful people are usually unhappy or unfulfilled in their own lives and seek to criticise most things around them to assuage their own wounds. These people will ruin your day as well as their own. Start your day by talking to happy, upbeat people who enjoy life.

Not being particularly dyspeptic or uncheerful myself, I simply fail to see the relevance of this particular post.

[questor]

It's not on topic, but wouldn't you agree this thread has brought forth some very negative feelings?

[modest]

A couple of the things on your list were very eyeopening questor. They made me honestly laugh out loud.

 

3. Is there any gratitude expressed for America's attempt to help bring Iraq

into the modern world and have a government elected by the people?

 

This would make a good pamphlet that we could drop on the Iraqi people, it would read: "We're not bombing you into the stone age - we're bombing you into the 'modern world'."

 

5. Is there any mention that most of the inhabitants of the prisons are truly bad people and would be killing innocents if not incarcerated?

 

It's a good thing they are "mostly" "bad". We try and maintain at least a 50% ratio of guilty to innocent.

 

6. Is there any recognition of the fact that many of these people have a better life in captivity than they had before?

 

The inmates come mostly for the good climate but tend to stay for our legendary weight-loss program. Yeah, we're booked solid at camp x-ray for at least one year in advance. Some attractions include:

 

Aerobic exercise:

source

 

A Scenic view:

source

Comfortable home furnishings:

source

 

You'll be screaming with fun in this room:

source

 

-modest

[freeztar]

It's a good thing they are "mostly" "bad". We try and maintain at least a 50% ratio of guilty to innocent.

;)

 

The inmates come mostly for the good climate but tend to stay for our legendary weight-loss program. Yeah, we're booked solid at camp x-ray for at least one year in advance. Some attractions include:

:hihi:

[REASON]

I am not in favor of torture.

 

Than quit trying to defend it!

 

Grow some balls, stand up, and declare to the world that it is wrong! No matter what. Quit being a follower mister left-brain.

 

Do you not see the conflict within you on this issue? You have stated numerous times on this thread that you do not favor torture but yet you can't help but find some reason to defend it. Why is that? Have you drank so much of the neo-con ideological Kool-Aid that you can no longer stand on your own principles? Are you affraid that to condemn any policy by your government will make you an American "hater".

 

Don't you realize that to believe such a thing is diametrically opposite to the principles for which this nation was founded? Our purpose is to stand UNITED in the face of tyranny, particularly by our own government. Criticizing the bad behavior of our government DOES NOT MEAN WE HATE AMERICA. IT MEANS WE HATE THE BAD BEHAVIOR. WE LOVE AMERICA AND EXPECT IT TO STAY TRUE TO IT'S FOUNDATION OF LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL!

 

All I hear out of you is Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and Ann Coulter, and it's boring.

 

I WANT TO HEAR WHAT THE REAL QUESTOR THINKS ABOUT THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IN THE PRACTICE OF TORTURING PEOPLE!

 

If in your heart you know it's wrong than SHOUT IT OUT! STAND UP FOR WHAT YOU BELIEVE. QUIT MAKING EXAGGERATED EXCUSES AND CALLING OTHER PEOPLE NAMES LIKE A BRATTY KID IN A SCHOOLYARD.

 

If, on the other hand, you believe torture is justifiable, and that our integrity, moral standing, and the rule of law can be sacrificed in that justification, than I submit that the only thing remaining that would bring you to a place of understanding about the abhorrent, and inexcusable nature of torture is for you, or one of your loved ones to be subjected to it.

[freeztar]

Mukasey went before the Senate Judiciary Committee today and dodged questions on the legality of waterboarding, although admitting that it is not on the CIA's list of authorized methods. The real interesting monologue came from Senator Leahy, who said:

"Among the most disturbing aspects of these years has been the complicity of the Justice Department, which has provided cover for the worst of these practices during those seven years," Leahy said. "Its secret legal memoranda that sought to define torture down to meaninglessness. They sought to excuse warrantless spying on Americans, contrary to our laws."

 

The chairman added, "It is not enough to say that waterboarding is not currently authorized. Torture and illegality have no place in America, and we should not delay to begin the process of restoring America's role in the struggle for liberty and human dignity around the world."

I couldn't have said it better myself. :shrug:

 

ABC News: Mukasey Won't Answer on Waterboarding

[Buffy]

Making it even more difficult for Mukasey is the fact that John Negroponte (the recently "retired" Director of National Intelligence) spilled the beans on waterboarding at Gitmo:

John Negroponte, the King of All Salvadoran Death Squads, spills the beans and says the obvious.

Negroponte: I get concerned that we're too retrospective and tend to look in the rearview mirror too often at things that happened four or even six years ago. We've taken steps to address the issue of interrogations, for instance, and

waterboarding has not been used in years

. It wasn't used when I was director of national intelligence, nor even for a few years before that.

We've also taken significant steps to improve Guantanamo

. People will tell you now that it is a world-class detention facility. But if you want to highlight and accent the negative, you can resurface these issues constantly to keep them alive. I would rather focus on what we need to do going forward.

It's an interesting new legal argument. Not guilty by reason of "yeah, we're guilty, but we fixed it!" I'll have to consult the Court to see if that holds.

 

...and if its not torture, then why did we stop doing it? :doh:

 

Sentence first--verdict afterwards, :shrug:

Buffy

[questor]

Modest, you show a group of pictures that could have been taken anywhere showing no torture at all and we are all supposed to cringe in horror? Omigod! Soldiers walking a man on a path---That must hurt like Hell! Picture of an empty room--This must have been excruciating! Manacles hanging on a wall--Jesus, I'd rather have my head cut off than wear one of those! This is your proof of torture? and the rest of the crowd yelping in agreement? While there must have been torture because different people have said there was, and while torture is barbaric and I abhor it, this is about the weakest portrayal I've ever seen and proves nothing. Supposedly, whatever torture being done is not now being done, how long will you gnaw on this bone? Would you like Bush and Cheney hanged? Isn't there something else you can focus on? Why don't you send letters to some of the Imams who constantly incite young men and women to blow up themselves and innocent people? Why don't you send care packages to the troops? What is your goal?

As for me I would not torture or have my men torture, but if I felt certain that a captive had info to save innocent lives, my goal would be to get that intelligence. I guess the rest of you would just let more innocents die. I do believe your priorities are twisted.

As I have said before, certain Americans blame their own country before they would ever entertain the possibility that an issue has been overblown. We are in a WAR. Wars are not nice. The other guy is out to blow you up, kill you anyway he can, and here you are in the comfort of your home hating the country where you live. My left lobe doesn't get it.

[modest]

Modest, you show a group of pictures that could have been taken anywhere

 

All pics have source credited.

 

showing no torture at all and we are all supposed to cringe in horror?

 

I was responding to this statement:

 

6. Is there any recognition of the fact that many of these people have a better life in captivity than they had before?

 

Which I found funny but you may note (as you wrote it) does not mention torture.

 

This is your proof of torture?

 

Is it? I didn't know that :doh:

 

and the rest of the crowd yelping in agreement?

 

I would hardly call freeztar a croud. And was he yelping? I didn't hear him yelp. How does lol = yelp?

 

this is about the weakest portrayal I've ever seen and proves nothing.

 

Reread what I wrote questor, I was trying to prove your point that GITMO is very much better than what the bad guys are used to. And now you're jumping all over me for it. :shrug: Last time I agree with you.

 

-modest

[questor]

Modest, as you and Freeztar go through life, maybe you will be confronted with some life or death situations. You may at some time have to defend the country you hate. You may have to make a real-life decision concerning the lives of others, and you may have to take someone else's life or he will take yours. If this happens or you gain empathy and maturity about the struggles

of reality, we can have another talk. I like to talk with someone who has walked the walk.

[modest]

Modest, as you and Freeztar go through life, maybe you will be confronted with some life or death situations. You may at some time have to defend the country you hate. You may have to make a real-life decision concerning the lives of others, and you may have to take someone else's life or he will take yours. If this happens or you gain empathy and maturity about the struggles

of reality, we can have another talk. I like to talk with someone who has walked the walk.

 

You'll find I addressed this somewhat in this post

 

Re: Is it ethical to socially engineer a paranoid society?

 

notice:

 

As soon as you decide to kill your enemy, you are what you fight. War is always evil and we always fight our brothers in arms. But, when the cat in the room turns into a lion you’d best be ready to put it down. It (they) want your blood nutronjon.

 

this is an analogy and you'd have to read the whole post to get it. I'll just say the cat and the lion are terrorism.

 

Good hunting questor,

 

-modest

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

Modest, as you and Freeztar go through life, maybe you will be confronted with some life or death situations. You may at some time have to defend the country you hate. You may have to make a real-life decision concerning the lives of others, and you may have to take someone else's life or he will take yours. If this happens or you gain empathy and maturity about the struggles

of reality, we can have another talk. I like to talk with someone who has walked the walk.

:shrug:

_________________________________________________________________

 

Contents: one brain

 

Directions for use:

1.Extricate cranium from rectum.

 

2.:doh:......

 

3. .... ...... ............ ... ............. .............

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