REASON Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 Whew! Mega Dittos Buffy! That's what I call Excellence In Broadcasting. I bet you won't hear commentary like that on Rush Limbaugh. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michaelangelica Posted January 25, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 I take offense at the constant criticism of the States about the torture question while not giving the same opprobrium to the atrocities of the other side.Their tactics are barbaric but by doing the same you become like them."What is the difference?" people will sayMore is expected of the USA becuse you are a civilised, educated democracy-ruled by laws, traditions of justice and fairness, conventions, courts, a Bill of Rights. If you toss all these away as you have done in GB you become no better than those you are fighting. In effect the Terrorists have destroyed what makes the USA special among world communities. This is much worse than killing people or destroying buildings- it is what sets you apart, it is why many are prepared to follow your lead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modest Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 In effect the Terrorists have destroyed what makes the USA special among world communities. An excellent quote from a par movie 'The Siege' - The quote is all that much better when it's being delivered by Denzel Washington: What if what they [the terrorists] really want is for us to herd our children into stadiums like we're doing? And put soldiers on the street and have Americans looking over their shoulders? Bend the law, shred the Constitution just a little bit? Because if we torture him, General, we do that and everything we have fought, and bled, and died for is over. And they've won. They've already won! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michaelangelica Posted January 25, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 An excellent quote from a par movie 'The Siege' - The quote is all that much better when it's being delivered by Denzel Washington:Fiction is stranger than truth.You see this theme coming through in a few movies latelyand truth is stranger than fictionBuffy a republican:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modest Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 Fiction is stranger than truth.You see this theme coming through in a few movies latelyand truth is stranger than fictionBuffy a republican:) True. I saw this movie in '98 or '99 and it seemed ridiculously implausible to me. Soldiers in the streets? Ridiculous... And now... it seems like all bets are off. -modest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questor Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 Buffy, you can call yourself whatever you wish, but if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck--you know the rest. I'm sure all your positions on issues are well reasoned, but if you can accept leadership from the leftists, I think you may be deluding yourself. Leftists and conservatives are coming from different worlds. The left wants the government ( read the Dem. party) to control education, health care, national security, immigration policy, abortion, and any other issue that affects our life. If you can agree that mankind is better served by removing personal responsibility, accumulation of wealth, ambition and freedom of personal association from our lives, feel proud to be a liberal. It is not illegal to be a liberal, but it is illogical. How can one witness the total waste and monumental mistakes made by big government and think this is the best we can do? Any person off the street could go to Washingtontomorrow and reduce government expenditures by 30% without affectingoperations. Is there any wonder that most government workers are Dems? As far as torture, let me pose a situation. Let's say you were Daniel Pearle.The jihadists captured you and are going to cut your head off. Let's say that Mohammad Mahdi was being held at Abu Ghraib and knew the location where you were being held. If he would reveal the site, you could be saved. What would be the proper course of action? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questor Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 Michael, you said:''In effect the Terrorists have destroyed what makes the USA special among world communities. This is much worse than killing people or destroying buildings- it is what sets you apart, it is why many are prepared to follow your lead.''Who is prepared to follow our lead? Spain backs out, Italy backs out, England backs out, what about your country? Was it because of torture? All of these countries have used torture in their pasts. I think they just didn't want to be bothered since they had only been attacked once or twice by terrorists. I'm sure they said something like---let's get out, America will take care of it!All the European countries are having problems with their Muslim populations, so what should we do when they ask us for help? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeztar Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 All of these countries have used torture in their pasts. [citation needed] All the European countries are having problems with their Muslim populations, so what should we do when they ask us for help? [citation needed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffy Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 Buffy, you can call yourself whatever you wish, but if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck--you know the rest.Did you read any of what I said? Why do you prefer Tom DeLay to Howard Baker? Why do you prefer GW Bush to his dad? Do you really claim that not agreeing with this extreme reactionary wing of the party makes all of these people "liberals?" Is Colin Powell a "liberal?" George Schultz? Even Barry Goldwater condemned the direction of the Republican party before he died:When you say “radical right” today, I think of these moneymaking ventures by fellows like Pat Robertson and others who are trying to take the Republican Party and make a religious organization out of it. If that ever happens, kiss politics goodbye.By your standards, almost all Republicans except for the neo-cons are traitorous liberals. Calling people names with no justification whatsoever--indeed a completely irrational "hatred"--makes the epithet "Bush-hater" so unbelievably comical that its hard for anyone to take any of the arguments surrounding it seriously. These arguments are bordering on the absurd. Dali would love it.I'm sure all your positions on issues are well reasoned, but if you can accept leadership from the leftists, I think you may be deluding yourself.If its well reasoned, then why won't you listen to it or respond to it? Do you have something against reason? Do you realize that the ultimate in irrationality is ignoring facts and following what others say without questioning it? You have yet to pose a reasoned argument on your stand on torture here that does not rest entirely on faith that "torture works":As far as torture, let me pose a situation. Let's say you were Daniel Pearle. The jihadists captured you and are going to cut your head off. Let's say that Mohammad Mahdi was being held at Abu Ghraib and knew the location where you were being held. If he would reveal the site, you could be saved. What would be the proper course of action?Since you obviously didn't read them before, let me reiterate in different words for your specific case:You torture him and even if you save an innocent, you'll be condemned for being "just as bad as the bad guys." Do you honestly think we benefit from using barbarity to respond to barbarity? By the same argument, if you see a criminal committing a crime in the street, why don't we just gun them down? Do you agree with this?You run a high likelihood of killing them. Are the terrorists bluffing? Do you kill someone then have them release the hostage *specifically* to show that the Americans are barbarians but the Islamists are the ones who show mercy? Even bin Laden and al Zawahiri leaned on al Quaeda in Iraq because of this very reason, and the murders of westerners stopped! Do you understand why? They want the high moral ground that you would give away to no benefit.You could have the wrong guy. Are you sure this is the mastermind with all of the information? How can you be sure? Are you willing to potentially kill a completely innocent person because there *might*--you do *not* *know*--be a chance that there *might* be some information that *might* save this hostage.Military interrogation experts (we're not talking about the ACLU here or any of your other bete noires) will tell you you are not going to get truthful or accurate information if you torture him.The problem with your argument is that you *assume* that all these questions will fall into your favor. This is exactly what Bush and Cheney do, and its the reason it all has blown up in their faces. Simply denying that that failure and claiming "victory" in spite of all of the evidence is a delusion at best. At worst it leads to America being seen as just as evil by those who do not share this delusion. Again, is it really so easy to deny reality? Why do people do it? I think every good Christian ought to kick Falwell right in the a**, :confused:Buffy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questor Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 Buffy, for all your attempts at trying to qualify my question about torture, I'm trying to make it very simple. You have a prisoner that you are absolutely certain knows information that will save a substantial number of innocent lives. What do you do to extract this information? This is a bottom line question.To answer some of your other accusations, I believe if Colin Powell had allowed the troops to capture Baghdad, we would not have this current conflict. I do not know what he calls himself, but it would not surprise me for him to declare himself Democrat. The words Democrat or Republican do not accurately reflect the fiscal, moral or philosophical beliefs of a person. I think liberal or conservative is a better description. I suported Bush in the beginning and I agreed with his decision to invade Iraq. His later stumbles and bumbles, lack of candor, and total refusal or inability to communicate with Americans and foreigners has made me long for an end to his presidency.He is a fiscal liberal and a spendthrift. He does not understand that we are being invaded by illegal aliens which happenstance will change our country forever. The problem I have is the possible election of a person who has no experience in fiscal matters or cares about the invasion, a person who only cares about power and personal aggrandisement. If we can observe this person on TV and not see through her transparent act, then God help us.America is in deep trouble and only a return to honesty, morality, and fiscal responsibility may bring us back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questor Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 Freeztar do you doubt my statements? If so which one? Have you not read about the European countries having trouble with their ever increasingMuslim populations? Have you never used Google to search a subject? Is it neccessary to provide a link to every sentence written? If you have some evidence to contradict me, link me to the source and I will defend my statement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modest Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 Buffy, for all your attempts at trying to qualify my question about torture, I'm trying to make it very simple. You have a prisoner that you are absolutely certain knows information that will save a substantial number of innocent lives. What do you do to extract this information? This is a bottom line question. Buffy has been clear in answering that question, twice now. The best way to extract that information is not with torture. The methods employed by interrogators with the most and best experience say torture should be ruled out on the grounds that it is unhelpful and harmful to the objective. I don't know what their exact methods are - I'm not an expert. But the experts do disagree with you questor. Instead of asking the same question repeatedly and getting the same, logical, well-referenced, and consistent answer; perhaps you should tell us why you reject the answer you keep getting. -modest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeztar Posted January 26, 2008 Report Share Posted January 26, 2008 Freeztar do you doubt my statements? If so which one? Have you not read about the European countries having trouble with their ever increasingMuslim populations? Have you never used Google to search a subject? I remember a while back that France had some serious issues with immigrants who happened to be muslim. I'm not aware of Greece having muslim problems, nor Sweden or Norway. Perhaps I'm ignorant. If so, pointing out links would help me understand which would lead to me understanding your position better. Is it neccessary to provide a link to every sentence written?Of course not, but when you make claims such as "All European countries are having problems with Muslims", you are expected to back it up with evidence when asked. Ideally, you would provide a link alongside your claim initially to avoid such questions. If you have some evidence to contradict me, link me to the source and I will defend my statement. Since you are the one who made the statement, the burden of proof is on you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REASON Posted January 26, 2008 Report Share Posted January 26, 2008 I'm trying to make it very simple. You have a prisoner that you are absolutely certain knows information that will save a substantial number of innocent lives. What do you do to extract this information? This is a bottom line question. Since we're having fun with hypotheticals, what would be your bottom line answer if the Feds were absolutely, 100% convinced that you had such information? What if they were absolutely convinced that one student had information about another student's plans to shoot up the high school? Is torturing high school students justifiable if it is intended to save lives? Or, since I know your answer to your own question, would you therefore agree that it is justifiable for our enemies to torture any number of our soldiers that they are convinced have pertinent information about an impending US air strike which will potentially kill any number of innocent civilians in their homeland? How do you reconcile stating that you do not stand with torture, and then spend all this time trying to rationalize it? I believe if Colin Powell had allowed the troops to capture Baghdad, we would not have this current conflict. That was strictly the call of the Commander in Chief at the time, George H. W. Bush and you know it. I suported Bush in the beginning and I agreed with his decision to invade Iraq. Earlier you advocated a more isolationist approach when you said: For those of you who hate, envy, criticise, and deplore the USA, why don't you take care of your own part of the world so we can concentrate on taking care of ours? I, for one American, am tired of interceeding with money and military everytime some country gets attacked by the bad guys. Why should America always have to ride to the rescue of people who after being saved, then turn on us and ask for more money or criticise us because we don't meet their idea of perfection? If you don't like us or our government, fine! Take care of yourself, don't line up at the money trough, fight your own battles, refuse our aid, and if you don't like our democracy, live with your own system ---we will be able to survive! And yet you support the invasion of a sovereign nation who did not attack us for the sake of bringing stability to a region of the world, which as a result, is now fraught with instability and chaos. How do you reconcile this? His (Bush's) later stumbles and bumbles, lack of candor, and total refusal or inability to communicate with Americans and foreigners has made me long for an end to his presidency. He is a fiscal liberal and a spendthrift. He does not understand that we are being invaded by illegal aliens which happenstance will change our country forever. Why do you hate America? The problem I have is the possible election of a person who has no experience in fiscal matters or cares about the invasion, a person who only cares about power and personal aggrandisement. If we can observe this person on TV and not see through her transparent act, then God help us. No. I think you unjustifiably believe she is evil. Why do you hate women? Do you see how juvenile this type of discussion is? America is in deep trouble and only a return to honesty, morality, and fiscal responsibility may bring us back. With this, I agree. But it will also take a recognition that if we are going to continue demonizing each other, perpetuating an us vs. them mentality, unwilling to recognize our common interests and compromise for the betterment of society, and stand united in holding our elected officials accountable for their misdeeds and corruptive behavior as opposed to constantly rationalizing and defending our own political party above the values of our democratic republic, it'll never happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michaelangelica Posted January 26, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2008 ?A slight diversion. There may even be a moral to this story The Chasers are the comedy team that buggered up the APEC/?OPEC conference in Sydney had a couple of interesting skits last year. The Sydney Harbour Bridge is guarded as it may be a "Terrorist Target". (Take it out it would improve the view )The Chasers dressed up as Yank Tourists and walked and climbed all over the place taking photos, etc etc.They then dressed up in Arab robes.Within minutes they were being questioned by security:rant_red2::Guns: ;) :Guns:Wait it gets betterThey visited Lucas Heights Nuclear Reactor (mainly makes medical isotopes for medicine -when they can get it going), dressed as an Arab.They had security on their case within minutes.:)Dressed as Yank Tourist they were invited in clicking away taking photos no worries mate! :camera::) :camera: :)The moral of the story is. . .?You decide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErlyRisa Posted January 26, 2008 Report Share Posted January 26, 2008 Michael, since you seem to be the most vocal America hater in the group, tell me which country of those you have mentioned have suffered the most at the hands of the US after hostilities ended? And in what form does the suffering exist? I would also be interested in knowing why you have such a hate for the US. Have you had personal damage from America or Americans? Michael Angelo actually lives in NORTH SYDNEY - one of the upper class suburbs of Australia. (and I am pretty sure he spots a beard)You can't expect more from inner city twits - I'm sure it's the same in every country around the world. I propose to build a Dome around every city and not let the People OUT - the exact opposite of the trend that is currently taking place in cities like London for example. Let the "upper echelon" of society build the wall around themselves - hopefully I won't have anything more to do with them. In the meantime I would be able to live peacefully outside in what they view to be their Utopian world. I always wonder with the Jane Fonda's of the world...Why aren't you vocal about anything else?-Hey, there 's alot to choose fromit took some of your opponent vocalists to highlight it to you because your too close minded to have an oppion that hasn't already been made for you...I am talking about Rambo. The new movie. -but for some reason I don't think any of you cafe late sippers are going to watch that, for some reason you will stay in your warm blanketted Susan Sarandon Green Day veil of agreenment, and it doesn't matter how much any one outside of the clic tries to highlight your collective mind's plight. You guys (Jane Fonda's) quote George Orwell - George Orwell was actually writing about you guys, and I love to smirk everytime one of you bring up Animal Farm because your half educated priamry teacher decided it would be good to learn that for material because she has never read it before, but thought she should because she has incessantly quoted it at every dinner party she has ever attended. Ohh I am sorry for ranting....I am just watching the tribute movies for Heath Ledger... Uhh I wonder, how many other cultures are able to make a film that I can watch to the end - maybe a nice Lithuanian Folk film would do - that's full of culture. -goes well with the chardonay hey? It's not the "average" that are missing out on soybean soups... it's those that hate the average that are missing out. In the meantime good luck... Korea (they now have robots cleaning shopping centres, while the average joe learns to play the harpsichord)Japan (do I actually have to say anything)Vietnam (Well after the 8 Million were slaughtered, things started to pan out, the new techniques of cultural advancement taught to the southern locals helped them to become some of the best pastry chefs of the world --oh to aleviat a Jane Fonda types opion... they are also one of the largest manufacturers of the best automated machinery in the world, they probably made your espresso machine's manufacturing plant machine, even though the sticker states made in France)Brazil (They are now one of the best helicopter manufacturers in the Americas) Now I'll start going down the listCuba (shame shame shame US,, if only you had of stuck your guns and sluaghtered them)Africa (well, Europe just won't let go will they --> the real agenda here is debate-able)Yugoslavia (The UN really botched that one uh, it was only when one of your X hero's Clinton said enough is enough, and "butted in" - fianally thier is some rest --but it's starting up again - as usual European neighbours sit on their Laurels turning a blind eye) Future Prospects...ObviouslyKuwait (fixed) Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iran...(did you know that iran it's illegal to own a Satellite Dish, yet everyone has one - they are watching Turkish Fran Fine as we speak (do I need to piont out the irony) - the US has already won. Syria, Southern Lebanon, Palestine, that's another case that will be won as they are out numbered by progress.Venezuela - they will cut thier own legs off pretty soon, slowly it will all work out as more New Yorkers buy forest grown cofee and the internet becomes more accesible (did you know some of the biggest Linux geeks are South American) uhh the movie is better and I have run into a mental block.... especially so because I mentioned Linux. a quick question - how many of you anti Corporate Hippes are actually typing away on Linux right now? - it's an Anti corporate thing to do, it would look nice when you boot up your American as Pie Motorolla Mac (vs a cheap intel/Amd which would actually support one of your X ideological allies) with an Africahna Ubuntu sitting next to your Japanese table top sand garden --definetly would be a talking piont...we all now how important being socialist is to you. Upteenthe percent would have understood the last sentences pun - most of them not adhering to such ideology. Cedars 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REASON Posted January 26, 2008 Report Share Posted January 26, 2008 You really should get out more, Erly. Some fresh air and social interaction might just do you some good. How 'bout go down and snap me a pic of the Opera House from a vantage point you really dig. Everybody loves to take pictures of the Opera House. You might even meet a cute Yank tourist down there. Maybe if you're lucky, she'll be a socialist and be willing to talk to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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