Guantanamo Bay: Shame on you, United States

[Michaelangelica]

We must ridicule, rebuke and rebut anyone - doctors, politicians - associated with torture and the removal of human rights

By Johann Hari

The Independent, London

GUANTANAMO BAY (Mar 10, 2007)

 

Guantanamo Bay -- America's shining torture camp on a hill -- is humming with new activity this week. Fourteen newbies have arrived, almost certainly from secret CIA prisons in Eastern Europe, where they have been waterboarded into passivity. They include Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, accused of masterminding the 9/11 massacres, and a man known as Hambali who allegedly planned the Bali bombing in which 200 innocent clubbers were incinerated. There won't be much time to settle in: the show-trials begin immediately. In these new military tribunals, the defendants can be shut out of their own trial at any time (along with their lawyers), evidence acquired via torture is admissible, and the accused can end up convicted on the basis of evidence they have not seen and cannot challenge.

 

The Bush administration propaganda -- we don't torture, there will be a fair legal process -- is unusually ridiculous, even by their standards. When Congress tried to pass a blanket ban on the use of torture by U.S. forces last year, the president demanded an exemption for the CIA. What is that, if not a tacit admission? In what way are these trials fair? We have become so numbed to the idea of Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib and Bagram Airbase after five years that it's worth remembering: we are talking about a string of prison camps where a democratic country, supported by us, is torturing people to death.

 

This is not a matter of bad apples; it is a problem with the barrel. Out of mor

Hamilton Spectator - News

 

search for "Guantanamo"

[ErlyRisa]

WE ARE AUSTRALIAN

 

 

I was going to look for the MP3, but couldn't be bothered,,, for those internationals that are interested --> it's a good luagh, its the default Australian anthem, or atleast a close 2nd to Cold Chisel's Chesan.

 

PS, for those in Ukrania, we in Melbourne apologise (the silent majority atleast) for embarrasing one of your Country men and duaghters.... we hope that in your heart you find to forgive us and our somewhat totalitarian media.

(only 3 major sources of information in Australia, inwhich all of them co-operate on daily information haording and censorship)

[Michaelangelica]

In his criticism of the US military commissions, Fraser finds himself in good company. In 2006, no less than 422 eminent members of the United Kingdom and European parliaments in their submission in the Hamdan case said this: "The threat of terrorism is real. Governments around the world confront the dangers and the hard choices posed by confronting those dangers. To meet the danger, the world needs not only military might but renewed and sustained commitment to the rule of law and to fundamental principles of human dignity and respect for human rights. In short, the world needs the United States to resume its role as a standard bearer for the principles of the rule of law and the protection of human rights and fundamental freedoms which are the shared heritage of a civilised world."

 

In the interests of international legal order, Australia would do well to awaken its ally, the US, and encourage it to regain its position as the global leader in advancing the cause of human rights.

Mirabella wrong on all counts - Opinion - theage.com.au

[ErlyRisa]

Um . let me guess... your a scientist living on the coast of NSW?

 

-Gloating in glee now that he's "voted out the fascist".

 

Fraser is an idiot - always was, always will be, and in his senility is has joined the ranks of Goth and yes even Kennet's beyond Blue moustache (although I know how much you guys up thier would love to get your hands on him - especially now) --what would of set it off is if Kennet actually dyed his moustaffa blue!!

 

Sadly, no-one serious or with any inkling towards being intouch with reality could listen to a word any of the above have to say (as a matter of fact - anything that is ever said in the public domain)

 

-Quite Ironic that you quoted another mainstay monopoly. (Fairfax, The Age)

, especially seeing as that it is done through a medium (the net), which could almost enable the user to be unrestricted by colloquial mind trains.

 

you could of sent something like this....

 

 

 

--at least then I could have pictured you with a beard.

 

(no harm intended mate... but I had some spare time too -- don't we all?,- to be here?)

[REASON]

So what's your philosophy on torture ER? Sounds to me like you kind of get off on it. Maybe you'd think differently if you found yourself on the rack.

 

Or mayby all your little snide, immature comments directed at Michael are because you think nobody from another country has the right to criticize the current policy of our government or the US in general.

 

Well, you'd better get over it, because if this is the kind of message that we are going to send out to the world than we shouldn't be surprised by a negative reaction. Personally, I am completely embarrassed by the behavior of the current administration and their torture policy (among countless other things). There is absolutely no excuse for it.

 

How can we claim to be the beacon of democracy on one hand, while stripping individuals (most of whom have not been charged with anything or found guilty of anything) of their human rights, and then torturing them into some sort of pathetic confession that doesn't amount to anything? Do you think this makes us credible in any way?

 

Michael's quote is right on the money.

[Racoon]

There you go again, Mike.

I don't completely disagree with you on this social issue, but C'mon.

 

Should we install 52 inch flat screen TV's to their prison cell wall?

That would at least increase our trade debt with China..

We need to keep those Chinese working!

 

 

You should realize, that being in Auzzie land, that you're in the same boat against the "terrorists"

Lets just all go to Bali and have a Blast!

 

:shrug:

[Racoon]

I'd really hate to think that those prisoners at Guantanamo are depressed.

Wouldn't that be awful?

 

Being stuck in some little prison cell.

Nothing to do but curse the US and read the Koran.

 

Thats how I spend my time... worrying about those SOB's who want to destroy freedom.

We ought to get them some more conveniences.

 

Hopefully, if everything plays out right, regular Americans will get sent to the same camps for opposing Bush Jr.'s war mongoring and fiscal policies! :shrug:

for shits and giggles...

[Michaelangelica]

 

How can we claim to be the beacon of democracy on one hand, while stripping individuals (most of whom have not been charged with anything or found guilty of anything) of their human rights, and then torturing them into some sort of pathetic confession that doesn't amount to anything. Do you think this makes us credible in any way?

 

It saddens me to see a Country with such noble democratic ideals and traditions trash them all because of a fear of terrorism.

If you throw out the Rule of Law, habeas corpus, humane traetment of prisoners,Geneva convention, fair trials, rules of evidence, jurys etc what is the point?

How are you any different from the terrorists you are fighting?

Where is your moral superiority?

You become like those you are fighting; and that means the "War on Terror " has been won- and not by the USA.

It is just terribly sad to see such loss.

Democracy is very fragile and needs protection and champions.

 

Did you really read the article I posted?

"422 eminent members of the United Kingdom and European parliaments"

the article written by

Peter Vickery, QC, is Special Rapporteur, International Commission of Jurists, Victoria.

 

Have you listened to your own Civil liberties Union?

American Civil Liberties Union : Close Guantánamo

 

Have you listened to your own USA Guantanamo Bay defence lawyers. serving Army/Navy officers like Major Mori -who tell you how unjust the Guantanamo Bay system is?

 

Do you listen at all, to anything, but your own closed minds?

[InfiniteNow]

There is a fundamental dissonance now in the US psyche, and a deeply rooted polarization is continually being reinforced. Your own mind is the only one you feed. Provide it with the sustenance it needs to wake up and move forward.

 

How can anyone argue with a straight face in favor of the practices used in places such as this bay off cuba? :shrug:

[Boerseun]

Mike, InfiniteNow, if I could, I would've repped your skinny asses. But seeing as I can't, see this as an IOU, to be redeemed at some time in the future.

 

Racoon, saying that there's nothing to worry about the conditions that terrorists and would-be terrorists are living under in Gitmo, and joking around flatscreen TV's, etc., have you considered the moral implications of holding those people, without them being charged with anything? Forget about the torture craziness, that speaks for itself and is indefensible - but holding them on flimsy premises, with no official charges? Whazzat? How do you defend that? Really?

 

The US is teetering on a precipice. It's very sad to see, really. The only people who can save the US from this moral chasm, is Americans themselves. Vote in a candidate who isn't sponsored by the military complex, and see how global warfare will decrease. The military complex might then sell cheap arms to little tinpot shithole countries and the 'States will then come to its defense - again. The arms manufacturers smiling all the way to the bank, regardless of the outcome. The US is the biggest armsdealer in the world. This includes the former USSR, China, the works. The US outsells those countries by miles, and then purchases billions' worth of arms from the very same manufacturers to keep the peace. For the arms dealers, its a win-win situation. And the moment they can successfully sponsor a president's campaign and get their 'inside man' in the Oval Office, Bob's your uncle.

 

The Free Market and Democracy is AWESOME! (Stuff the moral ambiguities, however).

Capitalism is AWESOME! (Provided you have capital, of course)

 

Americans, please do the World a favour and stop worrying about the rest of us. Save yourselves first.

[ErlyRisa]

Somebody please bring up David Hicks...

 

--funny how the left would actually rather see him incacerated indefinately ... gives them something to talk about -> but now what can they say?, bet ya he don't have line up at the dole cue.

[Michaelangelica]

 

Americans, please do the World a favour and stop worrying about the rest of us. Save yourselves first.

:shrug:

How about this for an innovative approach?

Tackling Indonesian terror

Background Briefing - 23 December 2007 - Tackling Indonesian terror

 

Listen Now - 23122007 |Download Audio - 23122007

 

In a first for the international media, Bali bomber Ali Imron is let out of prison to explain why he's now working to stop terrorism.

In this exclusive interview, Ali Imron tells of how he's battling with his radical brothers to prevent further violence.

It's just one part of Indonesia's ground breaking and controversial counter terrorism strategy. Reporter: Di Martin. (Originally broadcast 23rd September 2007)

 

Di Martin: Muslims inspired to acts of brutality by an extreme understanding of their faith. They are the violent jihadists, carrying out a Holy War against anyone who doesn't share their hardline views.

 

While the rest of the world struggles to respond to this new era of Islamic terrorism, Indonesia stands as a striking example of successfully containing terror.

. . .

Now, not only are they extremely committed to tracking down and finding the people who are responsible for violence, but they also understand they've got to deal with a network. So they've been very, very good about every time they do one set of arrests, they get these people, sit them down, by and large don't torture them, but then try to extract information about every aspect of the network that these people were involved in.

 

Di Martin: It's been a stunning transformation. From a force known as either incompetent or corrupt, Indonesia's police are now the toast of the anti-terror circuit.

 

There's no doubt that Indonesia's police can take credit for this success

. . .There's new police units, new equipment, offices and vehicles, and some state-of-the-art forensic facilities provided by Australia.

. . .

Di Martin: After dramatic successes locking up the terrorists, police are now pursuing another major strategy.

 

Deradicalisation, or convincing the terrorists to give up violence.

 

There's growing pressure to get results in this area. Some terrorists have already served out their jail time, and there are fears they'll reoffend.

What happens when you eventually have to let out the guys at GB?

you might expect them to be alittle anoyed about the USA?

 

Nasir Abas: Yeah, because people can have a different understanding about Qur'an. But the history, the life of Prophet Muhammad, there is no different understanding of the history.

 

Di Martin: Tell us about the process. Can you give us an example.

 

Nasir Abas: Yes. The process is personal approach. Keep in touch. Always come and talking, caring.

 

Di Martin: Being concerned about them?

 

Nasir Abas: Yes, being concerned about them. That is the first because people can accept you if you're concerned with them.

 

Di Martin: So you're establishing trust?

 

Nasir Abas: Correct. Yeah, that is the first step. So next, I start to talk and discuss about what they did, how they can be arrest, why they involved with the groups, what is their reason to do the operation or to do the violence. So what am I doing, I just influence them, back to the life of Prophet Muhammad, the true Islamic practice.

 

Di Martin: Nasir Abas is working with some very hard cases. Like the man who beheaded three Christian schoolgirls in central Sulawesi two years ago. The man's name is Hasanuddin, and on arrest he demanded to see Nasir Abas.

 

Nasir Abas: The first question is to him "Why you have been arrested?", and he said, 'Beheading case'. So I said, God forgive me. I ask him why did you do that? He said, Revenge! Revenge against the Christian community.

 

Di Martin: This is tied up with the very terrible sectarian conflict in Poso in Central Sulawesi?

 

Nasir Abas: OK, I say, Revenge? What is your reason to do revenge? And he said he talked about two verses of the Holy Qur'an. He's saying the verses, I knew it already. I say, OK, you use the verses to justify your operation. That is not your ideas. That is the ideas of Osama bin Laden. Because Osama bin Laden used those verses to justify what he did. He say that now today it is a law for the Muslim to kill civilians or military Americans

.

 

BTW racoon we still can't laugh about the Bali Bombings just as you no doubt can't laugh about 9/11

[questor]

For those of you who hate, envy, criticise, and deplore the USA, why don't you take care of your own part of the world so we can concentrate on taking care of ours? I, for one American, am tired of interceeding with money and military everytime some country gets attacked by the bad guys. Why should America always have to ride to the rescue of people who after being saved, then turn on us and ask for more money or criticise us because we don't meet their idea of perfection? If you don't like us or our government, fine! Take care of yourself, don't line up at the money trough, fight your own battles, refuse our aid, and if you don't like our democracy, live with your own system ---we will be able to survive!

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

Can't trust our govt.

Can't trust the courts

Can't trust the police

 

We're spied on and screwed over by the govt. Our constitution and electoral process are merely window dressing. The police are either out to get you or want nothing to do with you. And If you want justice in our court system ya better have mucho deenero.

 

I wish to god the facade would crumble

that those that live here would shed their blinders and realise just how bad it's gotten and will get if corrective measures are not taken.

AND most importantly realise that the people we allow to hold office over us represent us to the world.

 

Looking at how our nation has handled things I'm surprised that the rest of the world hasn't threatened to wup our @$$e$!

 

It would be soooooooooooooo nice if the U.N. held war crimes trials in which Mr. Bush and his cohorts faced prosecution for their actions for their involvment in the war as well as lying to the world to justify them.

 

Followed by criminal charges for all that Uncle Sam has done to the American people...yup that's what we need... HELP....Come on world America (well what's left of it) needs you....If a govt. won't listen to it's own people and interacts with the rest of the world in a beligerant manner it's the rest of the world's job to put it back in it's place and punish those responcible!!! -D.d.

See what I mean....Too many "Americans" are going around wearing blinders...neck deep in $#!+ and don't realise just how f##ked up our country is!!!!!!!

Americans, please do the World a favour and stop worrying about the rest of us. Save yourselves first. -Boerseun

Sorry B. but things have been so fkd up for so long that we're pretty much beyond the point of being able to save ourselves...

[HydrogenBond]

The torture at Guantanamo Bay is light weight in the world of torture. It is as humane as one can get and still get the results one needs. For example, how about being tied to a chair and punched in the face and body until knocked out, then awakened, so they can do it again and again. There is a torture with knives such as skinning alive or the death of a thousand cuts. How about hammering the toes and fingers onto a concrete floor so they can become pancakes. Don't forget about electroshock. There is bamboo up the finger nails and toe nails and in the food. Fire and hot metal objects are very painful. How about adding bolt cutters, electric drills and saws. One can also use chemical torture with acids and boiling tar. There are also neural chemical treatments like a bad LSD trip that can be made much worse with extra props. Pulling live teeth without pain killers is not fun. There is also sinking one into water with weights and pulling you up after you drown a few times. That is why it is called Club Gitmo. The worse thing they do is water boarding. It is affective and leaves no permanent damage like the rest of the above. One has to remember torture only happens if you don't talk. They are given the choice talk or the water ride. Many chose the ride.

 

Don't get me wrong I am not for torture. But in war it is torture when an enemy sniper rips your stomach open with a bullet or blows off a leg with a land mine, etc. If one was in Club Gitmo and they offered you a menu of all the above tortures and one had to chose one off the menu, or they would chose for you, water boarding would be in the top two choices. I would pick that, whimp out in the first minute and enjoy Club Gitmo's facilities. This particular torture also offers a way for soldiers to not be seen as traitors by their peers, without inflecting no real permanent damage.

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

H.B.

 

"wimping out" will only work if you give them the answers they want to hear...at which point they'd probably "gently persuade" you to admitting to other things you haven't done, heard, or seen to further their justification of their horrendous acts.

 

 

Generally speaking most people would rather talk than suffer but if you ain't got the answers ya ain't got em. (again of course you could lie and face execution as a war criminal and a terrorist!)

[REASON]

I can't believe what I'm reading. :hihi:

 

It's like -

 

We don't have to feel guilty because we only do

fun

torture. Being drowned several times is no big deal. And we only do it when they don't tell us what we want to hear. If they don't tell us what we what we want to hear, drowning them several times will make them, and than we finally have the truth we were looking for. It doesn't matter if they actually know anything, or participated in any wrongdoing, simulated drowning gets results!

 

Come on HB, you're far too smart to believe this non-sense.

 

Has it not been demonstrated that torturing prisoners yields unreliable information? Would you not tell your torturers whatever they wanted to hear in order to get them to stop? What makes you so positive that the people we are holding are even guilty of anything.....because our government claims they did? What if they're wrong? Is this the standard for the treatment of prisoners that we are willing to regress? Would you have the same cavalier attitude knowing that your son or daughter were being treated this way while being held prisoner in some foreign land?

 

Who have we become? Why are we no longer better than this?

 

Are people who rationalize and defend this policy doing so in order to not have to take any responsibilty for the actions of those for whom they voted.....in defense of their political party?

 

Are these Christian values? What would Jesus do?

 

Doesn't this make us just like the so called "evildoers." ;)

 

We are left with no credibility as purveyors of democracy.