Does God exist?

[Moontanman]

Aside from an obvious reducio ad hitler, this is correct, to a degree. We think that Hitler was wrong because of the particular social constructs that we have. Hitler (may have) felt he was right because of the particular social constructs he had. Accepting that right and wrong aren't dependent on a religion clearly does not equate to saying there is no such thing as right and wrong. In fact, it says exactly the opposite. :naughty:

 

I agree with what your are saying but I think hitler knew what he was doing was wrong, he neded a whipping boy and Jews and anyone who disagreed with him or were sociaties cast offs were his targets. He knew he needed to get his people in on the crime so they couldn't turn against him. He was cold, calculating, and deliberate. The insanity didn't set in untill things began to fall apart.

[InfiniteNow]

if there is no God there is no right or wrong.

Non-sequitur.

You may as well be saying, "Because bananas are yellow, today is Thursday."

 

 

It would have the exact same level of truth and relevance.

[TheFaithfulStone]

When he strikes a child dead with lightning you think he doesn't want credit for that?

 

Apostate. God doesn't use lightening to kill children - he uses bears.

 

tfs

[2 Kings 2:24 FTW!]

[nutronjon]

you're contradicting yourself, if there is no God there is no right or wrong. humans are nothing more than animals.

when a stray tom kills some kittens do the cat police arrest him?

 

 

and my religion has not changed.

 

Interesting statement. But our laws are not dependent on a God. All cultures do not share the same laws, and this is not because they are Godless people, but reason things differently. Even our own laws recognize degrees of the wrong of killing another, and it is not a God dictating such, but our own reasoning.

 

The most seriously religious conflict I can think of is Muslims killing their daughters when their daughters enact with a male in a way deemed sinful. Such strict enforcement of morality does maintain the moral standard and reduce the likelihood of a female stepping out of bounds. This would reduce the number of children born out of wedlock, and increase the power of marriage to maintain social order and well being.

 

In the past we accepted dueling as another means of maintaining high morality. The very religious colonist used excommunication, and denied those who did not agree with them, the protection of the colony.

 

We have laws against cruel and inhuman punishment and yet tolerate treating humans in prisons worse than we treat animals. Isolation cells are cruel and inhuman punishment and should not be tolerated. Treating people with mental disorders as convicts, or ignoring them as they struggle to surive on our streets is cruel and inhuman. Leaving our medically needy on the streets is cruel and inhuman. All this is a matter of judgment, and that rest on knowing how we want to be treated, not a God, and when we can not identify with another, this system breaks down, and our judgment tolerates cruel and inhuman treatment of others.

[nutronjon]

You are assuming that people cannot define right and wrong without religion. I do not choose to follow any commandments, I simply do not feel that harming another person is the right thing to do. I think humans are quite capable of seeing how violence, stealing, taking advantage of another human hurts others not to mention hurts society as a whole. If you cannot see pain in another human and feel it's wrong without being told by someone else then something is wrong with you.

 

Evolution has no right or wrong, it's not a philosophy nor is it religion, it's simply the way life grows and changes to meet the challenges of a changing environment.

 

I think that science has had as much of an impact on the evolution of religion as it has on society. Science is what has allowed religion to see it's own faults and change to meet the real needs of people. Religion has been changing drastically ever since science become independent of religion. We have come from burning people at the stake who didn't believe the earth was at the center of the universe or even people who have a different idea of life to a separation of religion in society that allows people to make up their own minds about anything. Science has also caused religion to have to try and convert people by appealing to the people not by coercing them with threats of torture and death. I think this is a good thing, only a religion that is freely chosen is really a religion. Forced belief is not religion, it's a tyranny.

 

Ah ha, while reading your post, the obvious occurred to me. We have social agree on right and wrong, when it is the interest of the group concerned. How we treat prisoners, people of foriegn countries, the insane, etc., is about protecting the group, not individuals. We disagree on right and wrong when it is a female, a Black person, or someone else who isn't "one of us".

 

Religion ideally, gets human beings to function on a higher level, above all these differences, but unfortunately, it can become another means of defining who is us and who is them. However, thinking about this:smart: it would be a good idea for the US to stress the growing Muslim population within the US, and work on this image of a Muslim US in Muslim countries, so attacking the US would also be attacking one of their own. But would Christians tolerate this? They all share the same messages of peace, but both have taken up arms and the desire to elimenate the other.

 

But let us really get real. Science and reasoning ended the superstitious witch hunts, and we are very fortunate for that. On the same hand, God kills those who drink from poluted wells, and those who fail to produce enough food to feed themselves. God kills those who live on flood plains, and beneath volcanos, or in poor housing in an earthquake zone, or live in tornado zones without adequate protection and warning systems. God mostly kills those who live in dense populations and do not have sanitation and immunization. My point is, the more we know scientifically, the more people live, and they live longer. So to know the way of God is to study nature and to reason, we do this better when our heads not filled with superstitious notions of supernatural beings. This includes understanding evolution, and that humans are not so different from other mammals, and are limited, as well as face limits in what they can do. When we look at God scientifically, our reasoning is greatly improved.

 

Arguing there is no God, instead of the nature of God, is a fools endeavor. Arguing there is no God, gets us no closer to understanding the nature of God. However, arguing the nature of God, reveals the self evident truths, upon which democracy depends. :shade:

[InfiniteNow]

Quickly, since the Hitler/Stalin/Atheist strawman was brought up, I have decided to share a few quite well articulated video refutations of that idea.

 

 

 

In the first video, I am referring to Christopher's comments roughly 4 minutes in:

 

YouTube - Hitchens vs. Hitchens (8 of 14) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOsKxVMvTXw&feature=PlayList&p=D235CA219715C124&index=7

 

 

 

Here, toward the end of that same debate, a powerful point made which reinforces of the above:

 

YouTube - Hitchens vs. Hitchens (12 of 14) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8gTswFbKo0&feature=PlayList&p=D235CA219715C124&index=11

 

 

 

For there to be a fair test about this, you'd have to do the following, and no one I've ever debated with has even tried it, so you be the first.

 

You find me a state or society that threw off theocracy and threw off religion and said, "We adopt the teachings of Lucretius, and Democratus, and Galileo, and Spinoza, and Darwin, and Russell, and Jefferson, and Thomas Payne... and we make THOSE what we teach our children... We make THAT scientific and rational humanism our teaching."

 

You find me that state that did that and fell into tyranny, and slavery, and famine, and torture, and THEN we'll be on a level playing field. As it is, all you've done is show that the idea of worship, and the idea of credulity, and the idea of servility and slavery to religion is a bad idea in the first place.

 

 

 

Here, it is covered again by another debater:

 

YouTube - Sam Harris vs David Wolpe 04 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrORCGEumto&feature=related

 

 

 

And, another audience question later in the same debate which brought great clarity:

 

 

YouTube - Sam Harris defends atheists AND Christians from past tyrants http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcY5SIfOkEg

[Galapagos]

Arguing there is no God, instead of the nature of God, is a fools endeavor. Arguing there is no God, gets us no closer to understanding the nature of God. However, arguing the nature of God, reveals the self evident truths, upon which democracy depends. :shade:

 

"Arguing there is no Celestial Teapot, instead of the nature of Celestial Teapots, is a fools endeavor. Arguing there is no Celestial Teapot, gets us no closer to understanding the nature of the Celestial Teapot.

However, arguing the nature of the Celestial Teapot, reveals the self evident truths, upon which democracy depends. ":eek_big::)

 

Democracy doesn't depend on your particular brand of deity, and it seems like an arrogant assumption on your part to suggest so.

Freedom and democracy are ideas stemming from our ability and willingness to be reasonable, which is in stark contradiction with belief in any sort of supernatural forces.

 

I'd like to recommend that all watch this video by Steven Pinker entitled "On Reason" form bigthink.com, in which he discusses secular enlightenment and the value of reason:

On Reason - Big Think

 

 

Here are two others on a related topic for those interested, "Where are we" ,discussing the obstacles to secular enlightenment:

Re: Where are we? - Big Think

And "How do you make sense of the unknown?" in which he discusses how making up stories to explain things we don't understand or do not know can only result in mischief, and may even be immoral: Re: How do you make sense of the unknown? - Big Think

 

Popular author and outspoken atheist Sam Harris also has a bigthink channel, for those interested:

Sam Harris - Big Think

[goku]

Religion has changed drastically over the last 6000 years, surely you are not so dense as to not see this? Do you really think the way you worship was present 1000 years ago? Even 100 years ago you wouldn't even recognise "your" religion. Get real dude, religion changes, often it fights a retreat from reality but it changes. Or are you still willing to chant the praises of God while a person who simply disagrees with you is burned alive? You need to investegate the history of religion your self and quit letting some one else tell you what to think.

 

i do actually read a little bit on the history of "the" religion, i say the because it doesn't seem right to say my, the title of the book is The Holy Bible (KJV).

 

yes i think things probably do look different today from what they did 100 years ago, but God is still the same. what changes is people.

[goku]

Interesting statement. But our laws are not dependent on a God. All cultures do not share the same laws, and this is not because they are Godless people, but reason things differently. Even our own laws recognize degrees of the wrong of killing another, and it is not a God dictating such, but our own reasoning.

more laws will make people more humane?

could man have evolved into something more than an animal?

We have laws against cruel and inhuman punishment and yet tolerate treating humans in prisons worse than we treat animals. Isolation cells are cruel and inhuman punishment and should not be tolerated. Treating people with mental disorders as convicts, or ignoring them as they struggle to surive on our streets is cruel and inhuman. Leaving our medically needy on the streets is cruel and inhuman. All this is a matter of judgment, and that rest on knowing how we want to be treated, not a God, and when we can not identify with another, this system breaks down, and our judgment tolerates cruel and inhuman treatment of others.

 

inhuman=animal?

humans are animals that should not act like animals? :shade:

 

there are two kinds of life on this planet, human and everything else.

 

i know that humans are not animals.

 

is it laws that make people humane or something else?

 

about the prison thing, well it's suposed to be punishment. unpleasent, harsh.

within reason of course.

[InfiniteNow]

I'd like to recommend that all watch this video by Steven Pinker entitled "On Reason" form bigthink.com, in which he discusses secular enlightenment and the value of reason:

On Reason - Big Think

 

Good video, and good site overall. I like this one myself:

 

Re: Is there a possibility of a creator? - Big Think

[goku]

two problems that stuck out to me from IN's video links

one was a professor the other was from california

[modest]

yes i think things probably do look different today from what they did 100 years ago, but God is still the same. what changes is people.

 

God changes with time just like religion. The old testament God was jealous, spiteful, and angry. The current protestant God is all about mercy, compassion and forgiveness with kind of a loving father persona.

 

The old Idea of God being angry with bad people:

Psa 7:11 God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.

Has turned into God loving everyone.

 

It's kind of funny when you think about it. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son. But God so hated the world that he utterly destroyed it with a flood. I guess everybody has the right to change their mind :shrug:

 

-modest

[goku]

It's kind of funny when you think about it. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son. But God so hated the world that he utterly destroyed it with a flood.

 

sin is what God hates

[InfiniteNow]

sin is what God hates

 

And how do you know what sin is without some human to manipulate your interpretations of it?

 

 

To pretend you know the will of god is what will lead to your own detriment.

 

 

You also reminded me of a Star Trek: The Next Generation episode... Number 51: Who watches the watchers?

 

In it, a group of vulcans not yet "evolved" to pure logic acted based on what they thought god wanted, and it showed how short sighted, biased, and ultimately dangerous and misguided such actions could be.

 

 

Who Watches the Watchers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Riker is able to spirit Palmer away and beam him up to the ship, but the Mintakans, who up to this point have respected Riker and Troi as distant visitors, turn against Troi as a non-believer and take her into custody.

Liko bows to Picard and begs for forgiveness, while Picard tries to convince him that he is not all-powerful.

 

Liko decides he has to prove Picard's godhood to everyone by firing an arrow at him. Nuria tries to stop him, but Picard finally states that if his death is the only thing that will convince the Mintakans that he is not a god, then Liko must fire. Liko does, and Picard falls to the ground. Nuria then sees that Picard is bleeding and shows the blood to Liko, who has a sudden realization.

 

 

 

TNG 3x04 Who Watches the Watchers Trailer http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6774670853413300187&q=star+trek+tng+watchers&ei=uBwdSPHnJaOqqwKlqpDUAg

 

 

[ame]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6463975517640863980&hl=en[/ame]

 

Star Trek TNG 3x04 The Who Watches The Watchers

[modest]

sin is what God hates

 

that may be goku, but it used to be the sinner he hated. He hated them enough to kill them and curse them and curse generations of their children. He hated them down to his soul.

 

Lev. 26:30

[God said] I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you

 

Abhor mean hate, a lot of hate.

 

In the old testament you must understand they didn't consider hate a sin. You were supposed to hate your enemies. David is proud of it in psalms 139 he says to God that he hates his enemies with perfect hatred which was a good thing.

 

So yes, God used to hate people but he doesn't so much anymore.

 

-modest

[InfiniteNow]

YouTube - Sam Harris Conversation V Dogmatism http://youtube.com/watch?v=4ZE_x2zcw6o&feature=related

[goku]

So yes, God used to hate people but he doesn't so much anymore.

 

God is still the same and he will destroy the world again.

we now live under Grace, Jesus stands between us and God

Jesus told us to love our enemies