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An Organized Look At Creating Nerve Gear

vr full dive divetech virtual reality Nerve Gear organized create SAO

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#1 Panther



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Posted 23 December 2016 - 05:47 PM

Hey, my name (at least on this forum) is Panther. I see a lot of "full dive" discussion here (I mean, it is the full dive section) and I wanted to share some of my ideas in an organized format that you can add to. I'm going to be assembling a group of my really smart friends (I'm smart too) to help with this, but you can also help out if you have skype, are qualified, and can collaborate. You can be anything from an ambitious SAO watcher to a neurosurgeon to be "qualified." Anyways, let's start on the organized ideas.


The  Goal

Ok, so the goal in the end will include:






-Movement within the game



It's pretty clear that taste, smell, and temperature would be the hardest to pull off without something extra like a booth they sit/stand in. 

However, I got several ideas to pull this off in non-intrusive ways, and be sure to add your thoughts and ideas too!



-An oculus rift type machine over their eyes (super HD)


-Sets for games made either with extremely realistic computer graphics or by HD cameras filming a hollywood-like set piece by piece.


Personally, I think an oculus rift type machine included in the mask is the best decision to have no intrusion. I mean, if you are wearing a headset anyways, it's much easier to have this then to try to send vision signals to your brain.


-Then, we COULD send images to your brain, but I kinda think this is unpractical when you could just trick your mind. You don't want to be in some sort of coma like they are in SAO (unless you are using it for medical purposes). At least, not until un-intrusive tech to do this exists.



Honestly, the answer to this factor is pretty simple. High quality noise-cancelling headphones. "Send sounds to the brain" is pretty stupid when you can just send sound to the brain the old fashioned way (called your ears). This is especially important because you need to be able to hear your door bell ring, or your mom shouting that dinner's ready. No parent would buy this for their kid if it made them completely zone out.



The answer to this is pretty simple too. A high quality mini-mic that people in the game can hear when you are nearby (in-game), also for starting it ("Link START"). You can keep sound from getting out by having it be sound proofed or some muffler. It IS possible that we could fit language into the emotiv epoc-like device if it improved, so that you can just think about what you are going to say and then say it, but that would probably be an option (don't wanna be saying everything you think). 



In my opinion, the taste part is kind of pointless. It would probably be an option for certain people who REALLY want it; they would get a small implant that somehow brings artificial taste. I mean, you came to play, and you can have a fake meal for hunger, but if you want some good food just log out a second and order pizza. We don't want people living in these things. 

However, we could have an add-on that allows the wearer to drink water when they do in-game, so you don't get thirsty in real life. 



For this we have a few main options. A non-invasive improved emotiv-epoc like headset where you control your character, an implant (again not recommended), and a full body suit that detects muscle movement and translates it to the game. 



A body suit could work well, and it would probably be an add-on. You could also have a controlled booth that some really rich people can buy. But the suit would be cheaper and accessible for all who want an even more immersive experience.


Many different combinations of all of these would work, but I believe a non-intrusive one would be the most successful as you don't need to pay thousands for surgery to implant some stuff. Remember, this is all the first step. The first model wouldn't be the final one, and we would always work to improve the experience with new tech. 


So this is my organized look at full-dive technology. What do you think?

If you are interested in helping, tell a little bit about yourself and send me your email so that I can add you to a google document where we can keep track of jobs and progress. 


You can also put down some ideas in response to this topic.


Finally, I will tell a little about myself. I'm telling you right now, I'm not an adult, but I am top of all my classes in the top classes. I am aspiring to be an engineer, and I also play jazz on the guitar and saxophone. I've been playing guitar for 7 years and saxophone for 4. I also do fencing, and I love naruto and sword art online! xD Have a good day, and a happy holiday!


#2 xTcHero



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Posted 24 December 2016 - 02:08 AM

While your ideas are not bad at all, I quite like them, you're restricting yourself by removing the actually good features in which the Nerve Gear has; a 100%, fully immersive virtual reality experience.

Yes, we can trick the brain, and yes, we can just "put some high quality headphones", but this won't make it as immersive, ey? Also, this'd be expensive. Really expensive.

Even my $600USD headset wouldn't be good enough for a fully immersive device.

First of all, as a consumer, this gear would be ridiculously expensive. You'd need a lot of separated devices (or even cramped in to a single one, it doesn't matter as the price would be the same). A non-intrusive interface would in the long term be 1) cheaper and 2) better.

1) while this technology will be expensive at first, because this is non-existent technology as of right now (or atleast very little progress has been made), as long as we can intercept the signals going through the brain, we can do anything. Literally.

2) This means that one, universal device can literally let you hear, see, feel, smell, taste, whatever floats your goat. You don't NEED to be in coma to use this device, you don't HAVE to completely shut off the signals the ears create.

You could even have a volume bar in game, letting you change input from outside and from the game, making you able to hear when your mom wants you for dinner or when the pizzaguy is ringing the bell.

The possibilities by intercepting brain signals are literally infinite, because what you perceive is what your brain wants you to perceive. There's no reason not to aim for the best instead of just the good.

It seems you forgot the most important part about fulldive: it's supposed to be so immersive you can't distinguish the difference between virtual life and reality. You can't accomplish that by limiting yourself.

Also, I'm on top of the class too, but I don't brag about it. ;)

Merry Christmas.

Edited by xTcHero, 24 December 2016 - 02:21 AM.

#3 Panther



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Posted 24 December 2016 - 02:16 AM

Thanks for your response!
Indeed, what you put down is the ultimate goal, but not the immediate. These are plausible methods that could pretty much be done now in a very simple game. (Other than the implant). You seem very bright, and it would be awesome to have more ideas, feedback, or research in the future! And about bragging 'bout being top of the class, you just did ;) xD Happy holidays!
P.S. I had read other posts where people are like neurologists so I had to include some qualification :)

#4 CraigD



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Posted 24 December 2016 - 02:35 AM

Welcome to Hypography, Panther. That’s an impressive and well-organized first post. :thumbs_up

I think I’m pretty much on the same page as you. I don’t think that a system based on a brain-computer interface is doable anytime soon, but that a system based on screens, speakers, and body position sensing and affecting systems, are.

Here are a few key points you may not have considered:

Device like the Oculus Rift are impressive, but even if their resolution were increased beyond that of the human eye, and their “screen door” artifact corrected, they’re still limited in a way that prevents reaching the “full dive” level of immersion goal. Like any stereo-optical system, it must either have an infinite focal length, or a fixed depth of field, neither of which is realistic. A device like the Rift allows you to change where you are looking by moving your eyes and/or head, but unlike normal vision, you can’t change the point at which your eyes are focused.

A perfectly realistic sight simulator would need to be holographic – that is, it would need to nearly exactly reproduce not simply frequency, amplitude, and spatial arrangement of light, but also its phase. Such technology exists now – LEIA 3D products looks to me to be the best, but are yet to be available in a consumer product. Online images of these displays looks much improved since this 2011 and this 2013 article about MIT lab projects. Although both the MIT and the LEIA system accomplish the same thing – precise electronic control of the phase of light – the systems are different, the earlier MIT system frontlit, the LEIA backlit.

For this we have a few main options. A non-invasive improved emotiv-epoc like headset where you control your character, an implant (again not recommended), and a full body suit that detects muscle movement and translates it to the game.

As we’ve discussed in many posts in this forum, Emotiv’s EPOC is just a low cost dry EEG device, with fewer electrodes than the best quality wet electrode medical EEGs. It’s ability to control anything is pretty limited, so he designers of the few games that use it and similar devices have incorporated it as a feature like “using the force” or “exerting magic”, not mundane, realistic things like moving your limbs. This is an innate limitation of EEGs, not something that can be improved with improvement in the devices, so I don’t think systems like this are of much use in immersive VR.

I think the full body suite is the only approach likely to be doable soon. I described this in a few posts, such as this one, calling it a “deep dive waldo” system. Such a system was described in fairly great detail in Ernst Clines 2011 novel Ready Player One, which, if the planned 2018 movie adaptation is as faithful to the book and as popular as I hope, should be much better publically known soon. Note some of the safety concerns I raised in this post – the basic worry, raised more than 50 years ago, is that a system forceful enough to give a realistic feeling of force feedback and input would also, if they system malfunctioned, be forceful enough to cause serious injury.

If we’re going to use a work of fiction as a guide in realizing a deeply immersive VR system, I think Ready Player One is a better one than Sword Art Online. Unfortunately, the hardware in RPO is bulkier and costlier than in SAO, but it’s in principle possible, while as described in the fiction, SAO’s is not.

Finally, I will tell a little about myself. I'm telling you right now, I'm not an adult, but I am top of all my classes in the top classes. I am aspiring to be an engineer, and I also play jazz on the guitar and saxophone. I've been playing guitar for 7 years and saxophone for 4. I also do fencing, and I love naruto and sword art online! xD Have a good day, and a happy holiday!

I’m a 56-year-old computer programmer. I’ve played various things with strings and frets since I was 15 (the less we speak of my occasional forays into thing with strings but without frets, the better :( ). I fenced in high school, and in college and later had a lot more fun doing mock medieval combat in the SCA. Like nearly everyone who posts in this forum, I’m a SAO fan, though I like my sword fighting, and physics in general, more realistic than the anime’s.

#5 Panther



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Posted 24 December 2016 - 02:54 PM

Hi CraigD, thanks for responding and your comments!

Indeed, I did not consider the fact that you need to be able to move your field of view with your eyes. That LEIA 3D project looks awesome! I was thinking that you could maybe, just like an ocular scanner, have some sort of camera that can focus on your eyes and detect where they move and fittingly move your FOV. It would be similar to the way snapchat can find your face and detect you opening your mouth. 


I think very basic controls could be done through BCI, but as of yet we wouldn't be able to do EVERYTHING in SAO, even if that is the complete goal. Maybe that system could be used just for controlling the head to look around, and the body suit could control everything else. The body suit would also be able to get your hight and stuff so you could use your body as an avatar in the game. That wold also work with the temperature option, as well as several other things you could do. I will definitely check out RPO. Thanks for your feedback and ideas!

#6 Asura



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Posted 24 December 2016 - 11:19 PM

Books and shows i recommend to develop this project are Eye of Minds, Accel World, and as mentioned in one of the replies, Ready Player One

Happy Holidays (Panther should know who i am :P)

Edited by Asura, 24 December 2016 - 11:19 PM.

#7 CraigD



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Posted 28 December 2016 - 03:32 PM

Indeed, I did not consider the fact that you need to be able to move your field of view with your eyes. That LEIA 3D project looks awesome! I was thinking that you could maybe, just like an ocular scanner, have some sort of camera that can focus on your eyes and detect where they move and fittingly move your FOV.

An “adaptive” video system like you’re describing would need to detect more than just the movement of your eyes. There are systems that do that now – for example this device
from IMotions (an overview of this and similar present-day eye tracking technology can be read here)

For a system to be able to detect not just where the eye is pointing, but where it’s focusing, the system would need to be much more capable, able to detect changes in the shape of the eye’s lens and/or the muscles and tendons controlling it. I don’t think there’s any system that can do that, in realtime, though such measurments are made manually in non-realtime via may techniques when managing eye health and disease.

Though I think holographic displays like the LEIA 3D are closer to being usable right now, and would be immune to distortions due to latency (the amount of time the system takes to process the eye data and change the display), an eye-reading system would give the game/VR developer the ability to know exactly where the user is looking, which could be useful. The two systems could be combined, a true holographic display giving the highest quality sight simulation, while the eye-reading system gave the program information not usually available in the real world. Consider that without at least a eye-position tracking system, our VR system would be unable to simulate the user using an eye position tracking system (ie putting on IMotion Tobii glasses) in the VR world.

I think very basic controls could be done through BCI, but as of yet we wouldn't be able to do EVERYTHING in SAO, even if that is the complete goal. Maybe that system could be used just for controlling the head to look around, and the body suit could control everything else.

We know with near certainty that present day BCIs, even ones using surgically implanted electrode arrays, can’t control much very well, so I think we need to focus on the body suit and other non-brain-penetrating system being used for essentially all the controlling.

It’s dangerously easy, I think, especially after watching or reading fiction describing body suite-based VR systems that work well, to fail to appreciate how hard it is to do this.

Consider an ordinary activity like sitting down and typing this post. The body suite would need to detect the angle of my knees, pelvis, spine, and other parts, pushing against my leg muscles with precisely the 750 N or so force those muscles are using to smoothly move me into my chair. The gloves part of the system would then need to give me “taps” of around 0.001 N in my fingertips to simulate the feel of my keyboard.

The suite needs to be both as powerful as the typical lifting machine, and as sensitive as a lab scale. We’re not talking about just a thin, clothing-like garment with arrays of small electronic actuators, but something like this backed up by an exoskeleton controlled by motors that are at the same time precise, powerful, and able to move as fast as I can move my limbs – in short, a mechanical device about the size of and as good as a human body, well-integrated into a computer system functionally as capable as my brain’s sensory-motor cortex.

Consider another simple scenario, standing in place and jumping up and down. Each launch and landing needs to send a few 1000 Ns of force vertically through the bottoms of my feet, while applying smaller forces realistically to my spine, neck, head, arms, etc. If you begin to model it, this is some complicate motion, with multiple possible simulation solutions.

A first-generation system wouldn’t, or course, have to do this perfectly – for example, it could avoid the need for motors by limiting the VR world to one where my avatar’s body had no inertia, so never felt the push of gravity or impact with objects, but it won’t be truly immersive, as such a world wouldn’t feel very like the real one.

Another issue is that, assuming we’ll be using the system on planet Earth, not conveniently in the microgravity of space, the system will have difficult replication the feeling of the absence of the force of gravity. There simply in no known technology that can “cancel” the force of gravity the parts of the body responsible for orientation and balance sense. The weightless feeling of jumping off a high place or being in space may be beyond any non-BCI system – though a system that has a few vertical meter to move in, like a present day motion ride, might be able to trick, as I described experiencing in this post.

I think there’s a lot of hard work to be done to develop a deeply immersive VR system, via almost any approach, and, fortunately, very fun work. :)

#8 BrainJackers


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Posted 31 December 2016 - 09:59 PM

I have a few statements to make on this proposal. The first few being things already stated (expensive, can't simulate free fall, not totally immersive, how could a body suit apply significant pressure...). I also have a few more detailed statements.


You said you wanted to use an Oculus like device for vision. In that case, is this actually a whole new system or just a more detailed controller with higher feedback? It is easier to use a headset but it definitely reduces the immersion factor. You also state it's better to trick your mind than design a BCI. I personally disagree as we already have systems to trick your mind and then I feel it's an enhancement, not a method of meeting the end goal.


You mentioned a way of designing graphical environments. Is that a tangent or does that connect to the central idea of this hardware? I can't tell but it seems like you refer to a tangent/best way of using the system. It sounds interesting (however simple) either way.


My issue with noise cancelling headphones is it reduces the immersion factor even more. I do agree using our given ears is a smart idea. A lot of people talk about sending signals to the brain while talking about VR systems. Ideally, you would send signals to nerves connecting your brain to your ears, eyes. nose... Then you would reduce your CPU stress (you aren't cloning the brain's functions to provide processed signals, more of a 'raw data' thing which is more standard between humans (demonstrated by eye replacement surgery)). Of course, saying sending signals to the brain is a lot faster/simpler. 


The above statement fails partially for speaking as you have to parse the motor cortex to see how the vocal nodes will be used. I honestly don't know if it would be easier to see nerves firing in the throat to find speech or to grab the data from the motor cortex. As your body is ideally paralyzed (I'll cover this below), you can only grab the data from the motor cortex. JSYK I'm ignoring how you grab the data (implants/no implants) for now (simplicity's sake).


You do not want people living in these things but it would be annoying to have to log out during a marathon to eat. Having in game food is much simpler. If you can't get rid of hunger (as the previous statements suggest you can), taste would allow anyone to experience fine dining. I do feel it also GREATLY contributes to immersion.


I keep going on and on about immersion. The reason why is because I believe in two types of VR. True and Fake. That labeling is a bit harsh. I know. Fake VR is already on the market. You aren't in a virtual reality but are looking into it and controlling a puppet. True VR is where your body is there with no puppet. If you were born into it, you wouldn't know it wasn't real (unlike fake VR where you could take off the headset). I do still think Fake VR is a great thing and has a lot of uses. It just isn't VR in my opinion. If we are to design a whole new complex system, we should focus on True instead of continuing Fake.


If we do go full immersion with a device that reads your motor cortex, your body has to be paralyzed or you will walk around in real life. You could implement some of the natural processes used while you sleep to do this, find a way to cut the spinal cord temporarily... I don't know. Something Witty Entertainment had a great parody of this on Youtube. If the body is paralyzed, you can't read from the muscles directly leading to the motor cortex/spinal cord before you cut it/wherever. You COULD not paralyze the body and have people teach their brain to control a 'second suit' (a more advanced form of controlling a Pong paddle with your mind) except that would be very hard and definitely not immersive.


Commercially, implants will kill this product. Few people will pay the cost/be willing to. I do like speaking with this boundary as there's no point in developing a system no one will use (unless if you will improve it to something people will use/have it be used as data for the dev of a system people will use).


I would like to speak to you for a second. One group leader to another. People have come together before to be a team effort/be a company/be an educational group. The first two are very hard to control. It's the internet. It's almost impossible to come together in a legal sense. People will randomly drop out. I find the mild discussion groups last the longest. You do seem to be going for that. Good choice  :thumbs_up 


A Google Doc seems highly unorganized. I recommend if you do create a common note thingy, you only allow comment access so you have the final say in what gets added (to stop trolls). I also think you need to provide a reason to stay and continue to help. Just some suggestions. Good luck on your quest!



Edited by BrainJackers, 31 December 2016 - 10:00 PM.

#9 Panther



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Posted 01 January 2017 - 01:44 AM

Hey both BrainJackers and CraigD!


I will address both of you in this comment so I don't double post, and sorry for the semi-late response.

I found it interesting how you two had completely different approaches to the goal: a suit/exoskeleton that simulates everything outside of the brain versus a BCI. I believe a BCI would be the best, but it is not currently possible. Who knows, maybe it will be in the future, and maybe the person who invents it will have been on this forum at some point (hopefully a non-intrusive one). 


So, tomorrow, I plan to make a trello page about this. Trello is a free board/organization software you can use on your browser. After I make it, I will edit the main post to include a link to this. Feel free to join! 


I'm thinking I will organize like so (initially, anyone can suggest another board they see fit):

- Non-BCI method

- BCI method

- Inspiration (SAO, RPO, ect.)

- People can make boards based around their own specific plan that can be discussed


So anyways, happy new years! 


P.S. sorry I didn't address everything you guys had to say, but I did read it and your replies were much appreciated :)

P.P.S. I will address more things on the board when it comes out tomorrow!

#10 Roxas1397



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Posted 18 January 2017 - 01:31 PM

Hello everyone, my name on here is Roxas, just on a short read through i saw the problem of inducing the paralysis. I dont have a lot to offer on the subject, but instead of inducing this couldnt a person, through the use of a BCI, esentially be put into the completely immersive environment but be put on a multidirectional treadmill? This would not only remove the problem of having to basically put the person into a coma, but this would also give the computer a seperate input for movement direction and speed, so that then the BCI focuses more on generating the "sight" aspect?

#11 BrainJackers


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Posted 18 January 2017 - 03:34 PM

If a user remains in control of his motor cortex, they could then open his eyes. How would we track that? What about their arms? Theoretically a Kinect and a facial recognition kit can be used yet that adds to device size, and the BCI must be small enough where you could walk around with it (as you would be when using an omni-directional treadmill).


How do we counter the issue of the body getting tired if we are in a large map? Just because we say the body isn't tired with our stimuli, doesn't mean it actually isn't. Would we have to shrink down to a smaller size (therefore limiting possibilities and adding some of the sad parts of reality)?



#12 Roxas1397



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Posted 18 January 2017 - 03:47 PM

Ok, i didnt even think about that. Very good point.

#13 BrainJackers


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Posted 09 March 2017 - 06:09 PM

What I'm thinking is (in simple terms) that we need some type of way to scan brain signals while also blocking those signals as to not disturb the body irl. We'd also need to write some type of code that could take the signals being sent out from the brain and rewrite those signals into code that made it compatible with game code. It would also have to be able to take game code (aka pain, taste, etc) and rewrite that into artificial brain codes and send them into the brain to stimulate those senses. 

So the entire thing?


I hope you realize that that is a hard task and it hasn't been done for a reason.


Are you talking about a forming a group/company? This gets complex. Say one of you writes code. Who has the writes to it? You, them, or the group? How can you guarantee those rights are where they should be? Would you write a contact? How can you verify everyone is of the age needed in their country to sign a contract and your contract is valid in the country?


Say you want to patent this technology. What country would you patent it in? Who would pay for the patent? What if someone raises funds and then steals them? 


Also, who's the leader? A group of 20 people trying to make one thing there way is "too many chefs in the kitchen". How can you keep power? Too much organization, and people will be annoyed and leave (if you start on the small scale as you would). 


What if you finally make it to the market, against the odds, somehow beating out billion dollars of money going to professional groups, organized, and with established PhD holders? Where would the company be filed? Would you, the leader, take your money and run? Would you distribute it evenly? By hours of work? By seniority? How can anyone be trusted with the large amounts of money that would be incoming?


Would you finally move to a certain country? What about the fact you're likely to pick up teenagers? What about how you'll be in multiple countries (unless you specify a country)? If someone is a slacker, would you kick them out? If you do, and they had any work that ends up in a commercial product, they could possibly sue. If you don't kick them out, they're dead weight.


EEG can scan your brain safely and is widely publicized. I am curious what your background is. Mind letting me know? :)


I talked about parts that could be used in the other thread. I recommend you check it out. Dual-threading can get annoying. I've been quite critical during this thread. When it comes to companies, legality, money, really really misguided ideas (unless I'm missing something), I get this way. I hope you understood.




EDIT: A lot of this is solved by being a formal company. If you're a formal company, you'll be shown as serious, but it will be hard to get people to join (all the red tape...). You'll also have to show serious work and progress among the group to survive. If you're informal though, there's issues in abundance and getting/maintaining people will be almost impossible.

Edited by BrainJackers, 09 March 2017 - 06:13 PM.

#14 billvon



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Posted 10 March 2017 - 10:48 AM

I'm also dual threading and your totally right, so... let's make a formal business I'll try to find a couple of guys who will pull there weight and if you know some guys let me know. We would all get a fair cut or just become non profit all together we need a lot of chefs and a big kitchen. We need some guys who can write code and also people who understand the brain and also have a group of people who can design the circuitry and how it's built physically. We all need to work together we also don't want any free loaders. We could make a private group chat using discord or something like it. Once we find people we can all come to terms of who does what, and who gets what. I'm not saying we form a business right now but I want to be able to talk to people who can pull their weight in a private chat to prevent legal problems/ free loaders/ publicity.

Just personally, if I was part of an organization that could do such a thing - and they used it to play games rather than restore sight to blind people, or restore sensation to quadriplegics - I'd quit pretty much instantly and look for a more moral organization.

#15 BrainJackers


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Posted 10 March 2017 - 10:54 AM

There's a lot more issues with that work as a hobbyist. You need to be way more careful, it's generally involving surgery (currently, implants are the focus), you need people to test on...


This device could be used for health. It is muting your outside senses. That means there's no pain. You could make a minified just sight version, with battery, and hook it up to a camera. An issue there is you may not be able to communicate withe the optical nerves.


The same thing described above could work with quadriplegics. 



#16 Abiisu



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Posted 10 May 2017 - 12:04 AM

Hey guys. Lets call myself Abiisu. Full dive  has been an exiting topic form a long time. People started sharing awesome ideas on how we chould access full-dive. I'll share some of my own ideas too. :lazy:


How would it be if we could cut off the connection between the human brain and the nerve-system temporarily. and then, capture the signals emitted by the brain into the nerve system.The user wares a VR headset which capture these signals. The vr headset will transfer those signals emitted by the brain into code and show the user the output within the game. 


Eg: the user thinks of moving from a certain place to another. Then he thinks of moving his body. The VR headset captures the signal and identify the movement and then it is outputted in game. He walks a certain distance within the game.


The basic concept :

  • Cut the connection between the brain and the nerve-system.
  • Capture and identify the signals emitted by the brain into the nerve system (Through a VR headset)
  • Output the signals identified within the game. (As the example)