HydrogenBond Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 Satan is something within the human psyche. It is projected outward into its many manifestations within religion. Seeing what is within, in outer objects and images, helps people not to forget there is something very shadowy within the human psyche. The way Satan forms within is due to knowledge of good and evil. One needs to know both the evil and the good to fully understand all the implications of a law of good and evil. These data are not mathematical opposites that cancel in the brain, but rather become three data sets, i.e., good, evil, laws of good and evil. The definition of Satan as the sum of all evil, is quite insightful because it is describing the evil data consolidation. The fact that many people can be tempted or do all kinds of evil things shows that this darkside data consolidation can take on a life of its own and drive the ego down some bizzare behavioral paths. By saying that Satan does not exist while continuing to use knowledge of good and evil makes people more unconscious of the compulsive affects of the darkside data organization. If one did away with knowledge of good and evil, there would be less data stored and less affect of the Satan data consolidation on the personality. Here is the paradox. If we did away with all law of good and evil, the Satan already in place would have free reign. To prevent the free reign we maintain laws of good and evil, which gives it more power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rsade Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 I fail to see how a starving woman in Ethiopia watching her child die can breed strength. I fail to see how a child born with severe mental retardation can gain strength from her condition, much less understand it. We live in a deterministic universe. While God can and does interfere with the natural time line i.e. miracles, most of the time, time is allowed to run naturally. What we perceive as pain suffering and death is only an illusion but like Einstein said its a rather persistent one (reality). ps and the child dying in Ethiopia imdeed, all evil in general is symptomatic of sin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edella Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 Satan is something within the human psyche. What?As I understand it,in six days God created the heavens,Earth and all life.At some point during those first six days God created the Angels,Satan included, to serve him and praise him.Satan of course denounced God, rebelled,battle, loss,hell blah,blah....sounds more like a failed Angel than"something within the human psyche." And get this:God failed to specify that Satan and his rebel angels would actually have to stay in the fiery prison he created for them. Instead, he allowed them to leave whenever they wanted, to roam the Earth tempting and inflicting suffering on humans. Yet,I keep hearing it is the evil within us or it is the darkness,where God's light doesn't shine,rejection of God,darkside data consolidation(my favorite)Misfotune...I don't get it.If not for Satan,would we still be in the garden of Eden?Would Eve have eaten that apple?I hope that apple tasted good Eve! suffering and death is only an illusion Wow. incredulously,yet with respect, Ed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rsade Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 Wow.incredulously,yet with respect,Ed Thanks for the respect bit! ; } > ... My take on reality is a very weird one (I believe that each of us create our own reality that casually interacts with others) and that there are as many realities as there have been living beings past future (really) and present. It seems that as science exposes the inner workings of time and the Quantum universe that every thing in the universe is weird, oh so weird, and quite beautiful as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwes99_03 Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 I've viewed the thread, read many of the posts. Some posts are completely off topic, others are attempts to hijack by those who oppose the discussion of a religious text on this site. Still others have posted their agnostic-type views (which I believe was the actual reason for this thread - to bring out the two sides of the coin ;) , that being is Satan just a construct to describe or personify evil or is there an actual being that is causing evil to happen) and of course some have made the opposing point that Satan was an angelic creature. The only answer to that question is whether you believe what the Bible says about him (the definition of a true Christian) or are of some other religious opinion. Those who believe what the Bible says, believe that Satan was an angelic creature created by God. He decided to rebel against the sovereignty of his creator. He is the father of the lie, because he was the first to create a lie (in telling Eve that she would not die if she ate of the forbidden tree.) Those claiming to be true christians and refuting the statement that the Bible says that Satan is a real creature must only look to the first chapter of Job, and to Mark chapter 4 when Satan tempts Jesus. Those of you who are not Christian, what do your beliefs lead you to say is the cause of evil in the world? Many have pointed toward the necessity for a balance to exist that if there is to be anything good then there must also be bad. My question is: what sort of balance between good and evil exists today? Earlier there was a post stating that if you only kill 6 people that you are a better person than someone who kills 10. I ask: what kind of sick reasoning is this? If you simply think of killing someone then you are not on the side of good, and you cannot say that just because you have not actually killed that you are better (more good) than others which makes you good in comparison.This is relativism. Good and evil are not relative. Murder is evil regardless of how many people you kill. Then there is the part of this thread that states that God created Satan to be evil. That God never intended for their to be a perfect earth filled with perfect people, living in perfect health and happiness. God is incapable of telling a lie, correct? All God's ways are justice correct? God created everything perfect, correct? God gave his angelic creatures and Adam and Eve free-will, correct? Free-will = the ability to make choices for ones-self. Choice implies using reason. Was their reasoning ability perfect? One would assume yes, since they were perfect. Perhaps though they went against the logical answer. Satan did just this. He knew God created him and everything else. He knew God was more powerful than any of His creation. He chose to challenge whether God was withholding something from his creation. He chose to test whether everything God said was bad for creation was truly bad for creation. He dragged Eve and Adam into this rebellion by telling a lie (that God was holding them back and would not actually sentence them to death.) If God is all powerful, why did he allow Satan to do this? If a criminal stands in the middle of the street and calls out a police officer for doing something wrong/unethical, and the officer gags and incarcerates the criminal on the spot. Has that officer answered the accusation? What happens when everyone around the arrested individual who heard the accusation starts to ask questions? Do you arrest them all too? God could have silenced Satan when he called his sovereignty and character into question. Instead, he gave Satan his day in court so to speak, by allowing his rebellion. In this manner he gave Satan time to prove his case. When God determines that he has had sufficient time, he will rule. Of course we can see what has actually come of this rebellion (if we believe what the Bible says to begin with). That is that we are not in a good state. Wickedness abounds. There is no balance on earth between good and evil. There is way more evil in the world than there is good. Every time someone tells a lie the balance tips more in favor of evil. This is the result of Satan's rebellion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rsade Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 Murder is evil regardless of how many people you kill. Ah,yes and this is the real question! When is murder, murder and not righteous killing (in the eyes of God)? I do not support the death penalty because it is murder by the state. (and because it is horribly unjust and immoral on other grounds). The concept of Satan and of the implications of sin that this BEAST represents are multidimensional. That is, Yes, I personally feel that the devil is the fallen angel of light. Yes, I believe that there are actual demons. Yes, I believe that there is a satanic force that can act on our temporal universe, which is different from common everyday sin. Yes, evil can be overcome. Yes, we are predestined. HOWEVER we also have FREEWILL. Yes, we can change the destiny of our (gods) universe. The destiny foretold is one of death of the human race but saved by the grace of Jesus Christ again at the last moment. We, can we should we? Yes, Will we? (change our own destiney) That remains to be seen, but the indicators aren't very sanguine!) Should we. Hell yes. The real question is change possible for we, the race that has been given everything and paid back God with nothing but sin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HydrogenBond Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 I believe that religion needs to be modernized for the modern rational mind. I do not dismiss the tradttional religious perception. Only this perception makes it hard for the scientific mind to see without hard data. Without faith one loses a large share of people. The hard data for the scientific mind is that memory can consolidate. If anyone has ever had a neurosis, one childhood event, played over and over, can create a reality of it own. The affect of moral law, combined with expectation, consolidates as two major memory organizations one of which is all good and one which is all bad. It is not coincidence that the stricter the morality the more tempted and compulsive one will become. It fuels the darkside data consolidation within. It acts like a neurosis or psychosis. The traditional interpretation of Satan is much more collective in nature. When the darkside data organization of large groups of people begin to interact and and come togehter on the same page, to do things like war, there is almost a large beast that forms with one mind and one intent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwes99_03 Posted April 11, 2006 Report Share Posted April 11, 2006 It already has been, it is called philosophy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ughaibu Posted April 11, 2006 Report Share Posted April 11, 2006 Are you saying 'philosophy is Satan'? Philosophy being the love of wisdom, I guess I can see how the apple could be interpreted that way. That would suggest that the virtue opposing Satan, the virtue specifically promoted by the Bible, is ignorance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwes99_03 Posted April 11, 2006 Report Share Posted April 11, 2006 Are you saying 'philosophy is Satan'? Philosophy being the love of wisdom, I guess I can see how the apple could be interpreted that way. That would suggest that the virtue opposing Satan, the virtue specifically promoted by the Bible, is ignorance. I think you are just being fescietious. If so then. You Dork :confused: . I'm refering to the above comment on modernization of religion. What HydrogenBond is suggesting is turning religion into philosophy. Religion is not something you modernize. If you want to think about religion in a modern way that changes the teachings of the original "prophet/teacher" then you are simply making your own philosophy, picking, choosing, and modifying what you want. That is not true adherence to religion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ughaibu Posted April 11, 2006 Report Share Posted April 11, 2006 I see. I thought your "it" refered to HydrogenBond's second paragraph. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HydrogenBond Posted April 11, 2006 Report Share Posted April 11, 2006 What I ment by modernizing religion is for the scientist to correlate bible teachings to what we have learned in psychology and neuro-anatomy. For example, if a person had demons in the bible, this could be taken literally and dismissed by science or it can correlated to psychosis or split personality. The religious don't have to change the standard but this attempt to correlate to what we know allows the scientist a build a bridge to meet halfway rather than just dismiss things simply because the literal is hard to prove. The personal Satan, I correlated to memory organization. Memory can consolidate and create a motivation of its own. Look at battle fatigue. These memories can play and be relived for decades causing all type of problems for some. If one knows about the "darkside", either through the bible, movies, books, video games, maybe the accumulative affect can indeed take on a life of its own for some people. If satan is correlated to memory organization and behavioral compulsion there is actually scientific credibility in what religion teaches. How would science explain psychosis if they know nothing about the brain or psychology? The ancient were go observers but lacked modern science to give them tangible meaning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edella Posted April 11, 2006 Report Share Posted April 11, 2006 What I ment by modernizing religion is for the scientist to correlate bible teachings to what we have learned in psychology and neuro-anatomy. Shudder...Try googling Christian apologetics,or creation science.Better yet startwith St. Thomas Aquinas(Christian doctrine meets the philosophy of Aristotle) and work your way to Josh Mcdowell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwes99_03 Posted April 12, 2006 Report Share Posted April 12, 2006 What I ment by modernizing religion is for the scientist to correlate bible teachings to what we have learned in psychology and neuro-anatomy. For example, if a person had demons in the bible, this could be taken literally and dismissed by science or it can correlated to psychosis or split personality. The religious don't have to change the standard but this attempt to correlate to what we know allows the scientist a build a bridge to meet halfway rather than just dismiss things simply because the literal is hard to prove. The personal Satan, I correlated to memory organization. Memory can consolidate and create a motivation of its own. Look at battle fatigue. These memories can play and be relived for decades causing all type of problems for some. If one knows about the "darkside", either through the bible, movies, books, video games, maybe the accumulative affect can indeed take on a life of its own for some people. If satan is correlated to memory organization and behavioral compulsion there is actually scientific credibility in what religion teaches. How would science explain psychosis if they know nothing about the brain or psychology? The ancient were go observers but lacked modern science to give them tangible meaning. Precisely! That is to say, this is precisely what philosophy is. This is your human reasoning on how to explain events and how to respond to what you believe to be the best course of action. Religion is to allow your reasoning to take second place to the reasoning put forth by a deity, (including by prophets of that deity.) Of course as you say science, or at least scientific method should be involved in making a true study of any religion, but to take everything as you suggested and equate it completely to something non-spiritual (unless you are a person who worships natural processes, which there are quite a few) would be to destroy all facets of all religion. And believe me, you would not be the first to make such an attempt, nor will you be the last, but all have ended in the same manner, in failure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HydrogenBond Posted April 18, 2006 Report Share Posted April 18, 2006 I still beleive in the wisdom of the bible. The creationism can be explained by science if one assumes the bible is not talking about the literal universe but the evolution of the human mind. The formation of the first cultures and the bible time of Adam and Eve equate fairly well. Before then nobody was advanced enough to ponder the universe so it did not exist for all practical purposes. It does not exist in the mind of an ape or a prehuman incapabable to forming culture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ughaibu Posted April 18, 2006 Report Share Posted April 18, 2006 If the Bible wanted to talk about the evolution of the human mind, it could've done so. If you dont believe that god performed the creation in six days, you dont believe the Bible, simple as that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfiniteNow Posted April 18, 2006 Report Share Posted April 18, 2006 If the Bible wanted to talk about the evolution of the human mind, it could've done so. If you dont believe that god performed the creation in six days, you dont believe the Bible, simple as that.What if we had a line-item Bible... whereby you pick and choose what you like and ignore the rest? Sort of like those stories we used to have when we were (at least when I was) kids, where you'd choose your own story. 3 “And I will bless those who bless you, And the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth shall be <blank> ” (Genesis 12:3) If you chose "blessed," proceed to page 48.If you chose "eating fried chicken," proceed to page 75. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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