Trump Acknowledges UFOs, Then Threatens Them With Military Action

[Vmedvil2]

20 hours ago, montgomery said:

Dear sweet Victor, you've gone to a great deal of trouble to prove something that isn't even being disputed here by me or anyone else for that matter. Can you stop now and wrap your mind around the question of whether aliens have visited our earth and been observed doing so? 

And if you can do that Victor, you might find my numbers useful for a start, lacking anything better? Use your brain Victor because I know you have one. Barring the part of it that's hung up on supernatural bullsh-t in cartoon land.

To answer your question if the Aliens can travel using Wormhole Jump Drive or Alcubierre Warp Drive, it would take much less time to reach Earth at a faster than light movement speed. Humans do not have currently have the ability to create such devices, however that does not  bar a more advanced alien species from having such devices on their spaceships for interstellar travel. Technically, they could travel thousands or millions of lightyears in years to seconds depending on the amount of energy they can channel into the devices to travel at 1 million times the speed of light that would just require 1 million times the mass of the spaceship's mass in negative mass or dark energy and enough normal energy to travel at 99.99% the speed of light for Alcubierre warp drive which in a year would make you travel 99.99% of 1 million lightyears, then for a Wormhole you could just travel that distance instantly making a jump 1 million lightyears long, but shorter on the wormhole's length to 1 meter.

Edited October 16, 2020 by VictorMedvil

[A-wal]

This is a truly fascinating question for one beautiful reason. Another quote from somebody else that I'm going to embellish, if we're alone then we are the only part of the universe capable of experiencing itself and therefore the only thing the makes the universe real in any meaningful sense because without consciousness it can't exist by definition in any sense that we can imagine but if we're not alone in the universe that's very cool and maybe supporting life is its whole point.

I hope we're either alone or life is basically everywhere. We haven't been able to create life, the longer that goes on the less likely it is that life is relatively common. If we ever do create it then it's almost certain that there's life elsewhere because with the number of chances it would have you would think that those conditions would exist elsewhere and we could work out exactly what conditions it needs and even get a good idea of how common life is.

 

18 hours ago, VictorMedvil said:

Well, I am just saying that there is like a 99.99999999999999997081% Chance that there are aliens in the universe somewhere.

With an unknown quantity as one of the varibles in your equation the answer is not 99.99999999999999997081%, it's ?%.

 

On 10/15/2020 at 2:10 PM, sanctus said:

I struggle to believe "It could be 0% excluding Earth".

Simply because life exists here, so there is a non-zero probability for life. And the visible(!) universe is sooo huge, that also the tiniest probabilities are repeated.

No, that's just an assumption., it could easily be 0% excluding Earth. What if there are a quadrillion planets capable of supporting life and the chance of life getting started on each one is on average one in ten quadrillion? Without anything to go on it's impossible to make any kind of rational estimate with making assumptions.

 

22 hours ago, montgomery said:

You at least take a moderate approach to the question! And so here are some numbers that we can work with for a science based discussion, as opposed to moon bats:

First life on earth 3.7 B. years ago

Earth formed 4.5B. years ago.

Big bang 13.7 years ago.

These numbers are 'probably' somewhat close to being correct, or at least I'll assume they are correct for the purpose of this  discussion. That at least gives us some numbers to work with on trying to establish the probability of life  elsewhere other than earth. And note that I didn't say, 'on other planets', even though that may be assumed. The important figure is the 800 million years it took for life to begin on earth. This might allow us to establish probabilities of life elsewhere, as well as probabilities of life coming to our earth and being observed. I'll suggest that this information makes the probabilities quite low. (not low for probabilities of life elsewhere)

And then combine that with the possibilities of any advanced life would have any interest in coming to earth? 

At least that gives us a beginning for a rational discussion that's not full of kneejerk bias and wishful thinking.

And then let's just add the question of the possibility of life being able to travel the distance due to speed and time constraints. 

It doesn't work like that! You can't use Earth as your yardstick because it doesn't exist in isolation. If Earth were the only planet in the universe capable of supporting life then you could legitimately say that if the were other planets capable of supporting life then it's probable that they would because you would have a known one out of one hit rate. The fact that there actually are countless other planets means it's impossible to gauge how likely it is to happen on each one because the hit rate could be one in a verylargenumberillion.

 

18 minutes ago, VictorMedvil said:

To answer your question if the Aliens can travel using Wormhole Jump Drive or Alcubierre Warp Drive, it would take much less time to reach Earth at a faster than light movement speed.

Worm holes don't exist and would destroy any ship that tried to use one even if they did and warp drives require negative mass which is beyond silly.

 

20 hours ago, montgomery said:

Considering that extraterrestrial visitors are limited to the speed of light. (maybe)(probably) I lean towards them not being able to visit earth so far. But on the positive side, for the likes of Victor and Thoth, they could be on their way and could arrive within a relatively short time of say the next million years or so!

The question of whether or not they would be able to reach us is interesting. As far as we know they would be limited to under the speed of light but even with that limitation they are not limited by the time it would take on their own watches, they could travel any distance without restriction on how long it would take them. The problem would be if they wanted to then go home, hundreds/thousands/millions/billions/trillions of years would have passed for those they left behind.

If they left now from their planet (which is at rest relative to us so 'now' makes sense) it would take a very long time on our clocks for them to reach us but obviously they could have left a very long time ago by our clocks. I can imagine an advanced civilization sending out explorers knowing full well that they would have nothing to come back to. If there are lots of advanced species out there it's not unrealistic for them to have visited us.

 

23 hours ago, montgomery said:

So let's make this a test for everybody on how they are capable of taking a scientific approach to such questions. What better way to separate the wheat from the chaff, the conspiracy theorists from the rational minds.

Those two things are not mutually exclusive, only an irrational mind could think that there are no conspiracies, just as only an irrational mind could think that everything's a conspiracy. What makes you think you're in a position to judge 'wheat' from 'chaff'?

 

23 hours ago, OceanBreeze said:

An unidentified flying object (UFO) is any aerial phenomenon that cannot immediately be identified or explained.

The military is always interested in identifying any such object as it may represent some advanced surveillance aircraft from an unfriendly nation such as Russia or China.

When considered in that way, Trump’s mention of US military capabilities in a discussion of UFOs is not strange at all.

Don't try to cover for him, he was talking about slapping space aliens. The man believes in the literal interpretation of the bible for fuksake.

[montgomery]

26 minutes ago, A-wal said:

The question of whether or not they would be able to reach us is interesting. As far as we know they would be limited to under the speed of light but even with that limitation they are not limited by the time it would take on their own watches, they could travel any distance without restriction on how long it would take them. The problem would be if they wanted to then go home, hundreds/thousands/millions/billions/trillions of years would have passed for those they left behind.

If they left now from their planet (which is at rest relative to us so 'now' makes sense) it would take a very long time on our clocks for them to reach us but obviously they could have left a very long time ago by our clocks. I can imagine an advanced civilization sending out explorers knowing full well that they would have nothing to come back to. If there are lots of advanced species out there it's not unrealistic for them to have visited us.

I've quoted you on that which is relevant to the conversation I'm trying to start and left the rest out. So barring Victor's wormholes and the rest of his cartoons, you've shown the reason why the times i've put up on the age of the earth, the age of the universe, and the length of time there has been life on earth, are all relevant.

And it appears that you're the only one who is interested in trying to tackle the question of aliens coming to earth and being observed.

Here's something new to add to the conversation: If aliens have come to earth they would either want to be observed or not want to be observed. If the latter is their preference then they would surely have the technology and the capability to not be observed.

I will concentrate on building my case against aliens having come to earth and being observed if there's any interest in that question. And I think I'm in good company pushing that theory. What side you do want to take, assuming you're initerested?

quote your sentence in your last paragraph: The problem would be if they wanted to then go home, hundreds/thousands/millions/billions/trillions of years would have passed for those they left behind.

Keeping in mind the age of the universe you would likely have to stop at billions. And even more important, the short length of time there has been intelligent llife on earth that could conceivably attract their attention!

Edited October 16, 2020 by montgomery

[montgomery]

1 hour ago, VictorMedvil said:

To answer your question if the Aliens can travel using Wormhole Jump Drive or Alcubierre Warp Drive, it would take much less time to reach Earth at a faster than light movement speed. Humans do not have currently have the ability to create such devices, however that does not  bar a more advanced alien species from having such devices on their spaceships for interstellar travel. Technically, they could travel thousands or millions of lightyears in years to seconds depending on the amount of energy they can channel into the devices to travel at 1 million times the speed of light that would just require 1 million times the mass of the spaceship's mass in negative mass or dark energy and enough normal energy to travel at 99.99% the speed of light for Alcubierre warp drive which in a year would make you travel 99.99% of 1 million lightyears, then for a Wormhole you could just travel that distance instantly making a jump 1 million lightyears long, but shorter on the wormhole's length to 1 meter.

That's relevant Victor but also needs to somewhat rely on the supernatural.

[Vmedvil2]

8 minutes ago, montgomery said:

That's relevant Victor but also needs to somewhat rely on the supernatural.

It doesn't rely on the supernatural, Dark Energy we know exists which is the same as having negative mass. Also, Wormholes and Warp Drives are accurate solutions to General Relativity being that General Relativity has been proven right, again and again, I don't think it's a huge leap to think that these exist too.

Edited October 16, 2020 by VictorMedvil

[montgomery]

41 minutes ago, VictorMedvil said:

It doesn't rely on the supernatural, Dark Energy we know exists which is the same as having negative mass. Also, Wormholes and Warp Drives are accurate solutions to General Relativity being that General Relativity has been proven right, again and again, I don't think it's a huge leap to think that these exist too.

Yeah o.k. Victor but can you keep it within the context of the question on whether or not aliens have come to earth and been observed.

Do the time restraints I've mentioned in my replies to A-wal have any meaning to you?

or

Can you build a good case for the theory that aliens have come and been observed?

[Vmedvil2]

14 minutes ago, montgomery said:

Yeah o.k. Victor but can you keep it within the context of the question on whether or not aliens have come to earth and been observed.

Do the time restraints I've mentioned in my replies to A-wal have any meaning to you?

or

Can you build a good case for the theory that aliens have come and been observed?

Well, the evidence of aliens being observed is less than conclusive but I am pretty sure I have seen a Grey Alien myself once, That's what I go off of that I have actually seen what I consider to be a alien. Do I think that there are aliens on Earth?  Yes, after seeing one at 2 AM. It is something you would have to experience yourself.

It looked like this

Edited October 16, 2020 by VictorMedvil

[A-wal]

I suppose the fact that they wouldn't be limited by the time it would take them on their own watches is irrelevant since they would just be able to go into suspension anyway with a ship that scans for advanced life automatically and wakes them up when it reaches one but it does make it easier for them.

51 minutes ago, VictorMedvil said:

It doesn't rely on the supernatural, Dark Energy we know exists which is the same as having negative mass. Also, Wormholes and Warp Drives are accurate solutions to General Relativity being that General Relativity has been proven right, again and again, I don't think it's a huge leap to think that these exist too.

Dark energy does NOT exist! The evidence for it being an actual thing is that their favourite model gave them a wrong prediction, seriously that's it, that's the only evidence for the existence of dark matter (dust) and dark energy. Can you imagine where we'd be now if that was the standard of doing science since the enlightenment? Dark energy even if it weren't an artifact is not the same as having a negative mass. Negative mass is basically what energy is.

Wormholes are not an accurate solution to anything in general relativity, at least traversable ones aren't, that is a myth. I don't think they're possible at all for reasons well outside of this topic but traversable wormholes don't exist even in any valid solution, they're only useful for sending signals.

 

1 hour ago, montgomery said:

Here's something new to add to the conversation: If aliens have come to earth they would either want to be observed or not want to be observed. If the latter is their preference then they would surely have the technology and the capability to not be observed.

You would think so. Maybe the sky is full of them and we only see the ones that malfunction. 🙂 Maybe they don't particularly care about being seen, give the primitives something to talk about.

 

1 hour ago, montgomery said:

I will concentrate on building my case against aliens having come to earth and being observed if there's any interest in that question. And I think I'm in good company pushing that theory. What side you do want to take, assuming you're initerested?

I don't even have a clue weather they exist, I thought I'd made that clear. If they do and life is common enough for their to be lots of them in this galaxy then I think we probably have been visited.

 

1 hour ago, montgomery said:

quote your sentence in your last paragraph: The problem would be if they wanted to then go home, hundreds/thousands/millions/billions/trillions of years would have passed for those they left behind.

Keeping in mind the age of the universe you would likely have to stop at billions. And even more important, the short length of time there has been intelligent llife on earth that could conceivably attract their attention!

I don't believe in the big bang, the evidence is a joke but let's not get sidetracked, so the age of the universe isn't a factor for me.

I don't think it's realistic for them to travel away from their home planet to specifically visit us. I doubt a civilization advanced enough to do that would care enough to bother, unless we're the first and/or closest to them which is possible. It all depends on how spread out life is, there are relatively close systems they could be coming from.

[Vmedvil2]

31 minutes ago, A-wal said:

 

Dark energy does NOT exist! The evidence for it being an actual thing is that their favourite model gave them a wrong prediction, seriously that's it, that's the only evidence for the existence of dark matter (dust) and dark energy. Can you imagine where we'd be now if that was the standard of doing science since the enlightenment? Dark energy even if it weren't an artifact is not the same as having a negative mass. Negative mass is basically what energy is.

Wormholes are not an accurate solution to anything in general relativity, at least traversable ones aren't, that is a myth. I don't think they're possible at all for reasons well outside of this topic but traversable wormholes don't exist even in any valid solution, they're only useful for sending signals.

 

Well, Mainstream science would disagree with you.

Edited October 16, 2020 by VictorMedvil

[A-wal]

4 minutes ago, VictorMedvil said:

Well, Mainstream science would disagree with you.

Not really. It agrees with this: "Wormholes are not an accurate solution to anything in general relativity, at least traversable ones aren't, that is a myth. I don't think they're possible at all for reasons well outside of this topic but traversable wormholes don't exist even in any valid solution, they're only useful for sending signals."

And it also agrees that the only evidence for dark matter (dust) and dark energy is that their model made a bad (to put it mildly) prediction, although they of course would word it a little differently.

[montgomery]

1 hour ago, A-wal said:

I suppose the fact that they wouldn't be limited by the time it would take them on their own watches is irrelevant since they would just be able to go into suspension anyway with a ship that scans for advanced life automatically and wakes them up when it reaches one but it does make it easier for them.

Dark energy does NOT exist! The evidence for it being an actual thing is that their favourite model gave them a wrong prediction, seriously that's it, that's the only evidence for the existence of dark matter (dust) and dark energy. Can you imagine where we'd be now if that was the standard of doing science since the enlightenment? Dark energy even if it weren't an artifact is not the same as having a negative mass. Negative mass is basically what energy is.

Wormholes are not an accurate solution to anything in general relativity, at least traversable ones aren't, that is a myth. I don't think they're possible at all for reasons well outside of this topic but traversable wormholes don't exist even in any valid solution, they're only useful for sending signals.

 

You would think so. Maybe the sky is full of them and we only see the ones that malfunction. 🙂 Maybe they don't particularly care about being seen, give the primitives something to talk about.

 

I don't even have a clue weather they exist, I thought I'd made that clear. If they do and life is common enough for their to be lots of them in this galaxy then I think we probably have been visited.

 

I don't believe in the big bang, the evidence is a joke but let's not get sidetracked, so the age of the universe isn't a factor for me.

I don't think it's realistic for them to travel away from their home planet to specifically visit us. I doubt a civilization advanced enough to do that would care enough to bother, unless we're the first and/or closest to them which is possible. It all depends on how spread out life is, there are relatively close systems they could be coming from.

This is where I have to ask you, what is your estimate for the age of the universe. In thousands, millions, or billions will be fine.

[A-wal]

21 minutes ago, montgomery said:

This is where I have to ask you, what is your estimate for the age of the universe. In thousands, millions, or billions will be fine.

Eternal. Finite but unbounded, just as it is in space like in the closed finite space model (which excludes time for some reason) of the universe and making it a hypersphere, just like the spheres inside but one dimension up. Look across the curvature of the sphere and objects will appear redshifted by an amount depending on the amount of curved space between them and you, redshift proportional to distance.

[montgomery]

1 hour ago, A-wal said:

Eternal. Finite but unbounded, just as it is in space like in the closed finite space model (which excludes time for some reason) of the universe and making it a hypersphere, just like the spheres inside but one dimension up. Look across the curvature of the sphere and objects will appear redshifted by an amount depending on the amount of curved space between them and you, redshift proportional to distance.

o.k., just checking for the 6000 years sh-t.

[A-wal]

What the hell would make you think you need to check for that when I've said stuff like this?

7 hours ago, A-wal said:

Don't try to cover for him, he was talking about slapping space aliens. The man believes in the literal interpretation of the bible for fuksake.

Stop pretending to be some kind of arbiter of rational thought, it's so annoying. You don't get to decide who's capable of clear thinking because you yourself are in no position to make that judgment.

[montgomery]

18 hours ago, A-wal said:

What the hell would make you think you need to check for that when I've said stuff like this?

Stop pretending to be some kind of arbiter of rational thought, it's so annoying. You don't get to decide who's capable of clear thinking because you yourself are in no position to make that judgment.

I have to suspect some level of insanity coming from all the posters on this forum. It's just the failsafe position that's necessary because of the performance of so many.

I'll take your objections into account but still keep an eye on you. 

And fwiw, me taking part on this forum does call for the same diligent attention to my posts. I'm always open to any rational criticism! 

As to you yourself, I believe you're one of those who have claimed to be a martial arts expert or something equally vainglorious. That's pretty hard to believe when you post an avatar of a teenage pinhead.

I'll overlook that for now and judge you on your future performance. 

p.s. Where's the Thoth? 2/3's of the attraction of this board is lost without his dingbat conspiracy theories. 

Edited October 17, 2020 by montgomery

[A-wal]

35 minutes ago, montgomery said:

I have to suspect some level of insanity coming from all the posters on this forum. It's just the failsafe position that's necessary because of the performance of so many.

I'll take your objections into account but still keep an eye on you. 

And fwiw, me taking part on this forum does call for the same diligent attention to my posts. I'm always open to any rational criticism! 

As to you yourself, I believe you're one of those who have claimed to be a martial arts expert or something equally vainglorious. That's pretty hard to believe when you post an avatar of a teenage pinhead.

I'll overlook that for now and judge you on your future performance. 

p.s. Where's the Thoth? 2/3's of the attraction of this board is lost without his dingbat conspiracy theories. 

I'm 40, and still occasionally get asked for ID. Yes I've been a martial artist on and off since I was seven and seriously since sixteen.

What makes you think you're fit to pass judgement on the other members of this forum? If you really cared about improving the forum you'd leave.

[montgomery]

10 minutes ago, A-wal said:

I'm 40, and still occasionally get asked for ID. Yes I've been a martial artist on and off since I was seven and seriously since sixteen.

What makes you think you're fit to pass judgement on the other members of this forum? If you really cared about improving the forum you'd leave.

I've passed judgment when it's been necessary on some of the members, but not all. Some are obviously mentally ill and some are just full of American style bullsh-t. If I've judged anybody wrongly then speak up and correct me if you think you have a case.

And now back on topic: This is a pretty good thread on which to be able to judge certain members. Take Victor for instance. My opinion of him is that he's quite sane but seeks attention more than anything. But he's evasive enough to continue to make me wonder about him and so I will feed him some bait to bring him out more. Vixtor's post above with the cartoon picture of the alien makes me wonder whether he truly believes he's seen an alien, or he's just seeking attention. What do you think? I'm leaning toward thinking Victor is just some sort of mini-Thoth who needs encouragement.

Can we say that Thoth is sane? The definition of sanity or insanity is based mostly on how acceptable the subject's views are to the mainstream. Surely we should know that Thoth's extremist wandering are only acceptable to something less than 10% of Americans, so is that insanity? Can we even compare that to the wide acceptance Trump gets with his obviously mentally ill ramblings? Or is it the case that Trump's followers don't take him seriously and are much more interested in the entertainment value he offers?

The coming election is going to answer some of these questions for us I think?