Survival Wagon Idea - Recreation Or Reality TV

[Turtle]

i'm thinking more along the lines of building from scratch (assuming i get around to building an arc welder at some point) - should be cheaper for the base unit, and much more customisable to my particular needs. i had thought about maps, but i'm not sure which ones to put in. that may, i suppose, just be a generic listing and specifics will be determined by what i'm using the wagon for at any particular time.

for major disaster i'd say at least a good state/province/etc. map and a country atlas as part of the kit. for fun, add as detailed a topo map as you can muster. (disaster might strike while you're out having fun, so take them all! :lightning :omg:)

 

 

not even sure what one of those is, hahah. all my bikes have been cantilever or disc brakes. oh, wait. just checked wikipedia- i have ridden a coaster brake bmx at one point, i believe. that could certainly work. i think disc brakes are likely to be the way to go, in potentially wet and muddy terrain. they're head-over-handlebars strong, too, in my experience, so stopping power shouldn't be a problem.

...

hmm, you bring up a valid point about oscillations, but with moderate shock absorption and some decent disc brakes, i think that issue would be negated.

...

i made the decision to pull from the hips rather than from a shoulder harness so i could carry some of the lighter-weight essentials (and a platypus hydration bladder) on my back. thus even if the cart somehow gets lost down a ravine into a river in flood during a snowstorm, then i'll still have enough to get me by to walk out.

 

 

good talk. :D

 

sounds good...carry on! i mean...roll on! the more the ideas & trials the better. i think i'm going with a pack-frame with a quick-release hook-up of some kind now and a light-day pack on it as you suggest. one note on your electricals: you'll need a charge controller with so many panels & i'd up the wattage on the inverter if you don't have one yet. i have a 750 watt unit & it won't power a 750 watt hot plate. :rant: wish i'd gone with 1200 watts. size/weight wise they are not much different, but of course then there is the price. who we gonna call!? :D

 

Apologies in advance, but I'm going to steal one post in this fascinating thread.

 

I've always been intrigued by the concept being designed. I think I've read the entire thread in the past month or so.

 

But, my energy level is perhaps at a lower point than most of you (and even lower now as I approach some heart surgery in the next couple of weeks).

 

My Survival Wagon.

 

 

I'll go quietly now.

 

Carry on.

 

 

no apologies necessary. you can't steal what i'm giving away so i hope you'll at least stay & comment if & when you see us barking up a dangerous design tree. :dog: as it is, i now have you pencilled in as base post wagon master & dispute mediator, camp site #8, july 1 - 4, 2011. there's only the one site big enough for you though & they don't take reservations so i may have to get crafty. also, there is no water or electrical or sewer, but there are outhouses and serene beauty to who-laid-the-chunk. :rose:

 

ready...set...go! . . .

[Ken]

for major disaster i'd say at least a good state/province/etc. map and a country atlas as part of the kit. for fun, add as detailed a topo map as you can muster. (disaster might strike while you're out having fun, so take them all! :lightning :omg:)

 

 

 

 

sounds good...carry on! i mean...roll on! the more the ideas & trials the better. i think i'm going with a pack-frame with a quick-release hook-up of some kind now and a light-day pack on it as you suggest. one note on your electricals: you'll need a charge controller with so many panels & i'd up the wattage on the inverter if you don't have one yet. i have a 750 watt unit & it won't power a 750 watt hot plate. :rant: wish i'd gone with 1200 watts. size/weight wise they are not much different, but of course then there is the price. who we gonna call!? :D

 

 

 

no apologies necessary. you can't steal what i'm giving away so i hope you'll at least stay & comment if & when you see us barking up a dangerous design tree. :dog: as it is, i now have you pencilled in as base post wagon master & dispute mediator, camp site #8, july 1 - 4, 2011. there's only the one site big enough for you though & they don't take reservations so i may have to get crafty. also, there is no water or electrical or sewer, but there are outhouses and serene beauty to who-laid-the-chunk. :rose:

 

ready...set...go! . . .

 

 

The joys of the environmentally unfriendly RV include 100gal freshwater supply, waste tankage (gray and black) totaling another 100 gallons, couch, recliner, Queen size bed, and a well-stocked fridge.

 

I can "boondock" (no hook-up camping) for a week if I take Navy style showers. :D

 

But, then there is the 90 gallon diesel tank that drains too darn quickly at around 8mpg. <_<

 

BTW, I really enjoy your posts and admire your Picasso-like quick sketches. This thread is a keeeper.

 

[Turtle]

The joys of the environmentally unfriendly RV include 100gal freshwater supply, waste tankage (gray and black) totaling another 100 gallons, couch, recliner, Queen size bed, and a well-stocked fridge.

 

I can "boondock" (no hook-up camping) for a week if I take Navy style showers. :D

 

But, then there is the 90 gallon diesel tank that drains too darn quickly at around 8mpg. <_<

 

BTW, I really enjoy your posts and admire your Picasso-like quick sketches. This thread is a keeeper.

 

 

roger; i'll keep you pencilled in just in case & add you to the honorable mention list as you are too kind.

 

i think i mentioned how i would handle (:doh:) the brake actuator, but i drew up a little sketch today for it. either bicycle or motorcycle brake and the rod either a metal tube or wooden dowel. the wire bail on the end is to lock it down, and below the actuator a drawing of a storage tube to stick the actuator in & get it out of your hand -but still keep it handy - when not in use. with maybe 4 or 5 feet of cable you can operate the brake from the front, sides, or behind the wagon. servicable no matter what brake type you have.

[JMJones0424]

Just throwing out ideas here-

 

Weight

In my platoon in the Marines, we had a saying. An ounce at insert equals a pound at extract. In other words, saving weight, even the tiniest amount, makes a HUGE difference later on down the road. At walking speed, I doubt any form of suspension is necessary. If something is so delicate that it can not survive minor jostling encountered in transit, then it probably ought to be carried on your body anyway. The only shock absorbance I think you should be focused on is in the physical connection from wagon to person, anything else is unnecessary weight.

 

Likewise, how important is it to have an electric hotplate? Unless you have access to AC, I would think the weight of all the equipment needed to power the thing would make it a very expensive luxury.

 

Brakes

I think there are two main functions of brakes. The first, and most important, is a safety to prevent the wagon from running you down or accelerating a downhill slide if you were to lose your footing. To meet this function, you need to design a quick release type of setup, so that the brakes are set to engage as their normal state, and can be immediately triggered in case of an accident. If the spokes of the wheel are rigid, like plastic BMX wheels (which I think they should be anyway unless you are traveling solely on roads or trails), you could rig up some type of spring loaded obstruction to pop out and stop the wheels from rotating if you fall. Of course, this won't prevent the tires from sliding, but neither will bicycle brakes. I have a few ideas of how to accomplish this, but I haven't thought of any one application that could accommadate all possible instances where the "emergency brake" would need to be triggered.

 

The second function of brakes would be to provide rolling resistance to the wheels while traveling downhill, or temporarily while coming down the other side of a large obstruction, like a log or a big rock. Typical compression style brakes found on bikes would be ideal, as you could easily apply the correct amount of resistance to prevent the wagon from pushing you over. I am not convinced that these brakes would be sufficient for "emergency brakes" though.

 

It has been a long time since I rode a bike with the rear axle brakes that are engaged by pedaling backwards. I assume this is what you meant by coaster brakes? I don't remember how much braking precision was available with this style of brake. Would it be possible to use that style of brake for both immediate braking and slow, incremental braking?

[Turtle]

Just throwing out ideas here-

 

Weight

In my platoon in the Marines, we had a saying. An ounce at insert equals a pound at extract. In other words, saving weight, even the tiniest amount, makes a HUGE difference later on down the road. At walking speed, I doubt any form of suspension is necessary. If something is so delicate that it can not survive minor jostling encountered in transit, then it probably ought to be carried on your body anyway. The only shock absorbance I think you should be focused on is in the physical connection from wagon to person, anything else is unnecessary weight.

 

Likewise, how important is it to have an electric hotplate? Unless you have access to AC, I would think the weight of all the equipment needed to power the thing would make it a very expensive luxury.

 

just gobbling ideas up here. agreed on no need of shock absorbers on wagon.

 

the idea of having a hot-plate, and indeed electrical power at all is that with a wagon, you can. besides cooking, heating, and light with an ac inverter running off a 12 volt battery, you can recharge batteries for the cell phone, gps, flashlights, radios, cameras, etcetera. i also have a 12volt portable winch & optional hand-crank for the tough spots. given that my deep cell alone weighs 52 pounds, just the battery is a load for the lay hiker. :omg: then we have the times when you can't get a fire going and having electrical power isn't such a bad survival idea. :lightning

 

i was also thinking of the electrical being part of the rally requirement, i.e. part of a contest/challenge on the route where participants must use their electrical systems to complete some task.

 

Brakes

I think there are two main functions of brakes. The first, and most important, is a safety to prevent the wagon from running you down or accelerating a downhill slide if you were to lose your footing. To meet this function, you need to design a quick release type of setup, so that the brakes are set to engage as their normal state, and can be immediately triggered in case of an accident. If the spokes of the wheel are rigid, like plastic BMX wheels (which I think they should be anyway unless you are traveling solely on roads or trails), you could rig up some type of spring loaded obstruction to pop out and stop the wheels from rotating if you fall. Of course, this won't prevent the tires from sliding, but neither will bicycle brakes. I have a few ideas of how to accomplish this, but I haven't thought of any one application that could accommadate all possible instances where the "emergency brake" would need to be triggered.

 

The second function of brakes would be to provide rolling resistance to the wheels while traveling downhill, or temporarily while coming down the other side of a large obstruction, like a log or a big rock. Typical compression style brakes found on bikes would be ideal, as you could easily apply the correct amount of resistance to prevent the wagon from pushing you over. I am not convinced that these brakes would be sufficient for "emergency brakes" though.

 

It has been a long time since I rode a bike with the rear axle brakes that are engaged by pedaling backwards. I assume this is what you meant by coaster brakes? I don't remember how much braking precision was available with this style of brake. Would it be possible to use that style of brake for both immediate braking and slow, incremental braking?

 

roger e-brake. hadn't thought of that. :doh: i like the idea of having it separate from the rolling resistance. maybe if you have wire spoke wheels you could have a small "log" that would drop down & chock the wheels. :shrug:

 

yep; backward pedaling brakes are "coaster brakes". coaster brakes are variable to applied pressure, but fine tuning them would be a matter of tinkering i'm thinkering. i was also thinkering that if i did as as said with 2 coaster brake wheels mounted in cut off bike frames, one brake arm would be inboard and one outboard. not sure if that's a big problem or not. anyway, using 2 front forks instead with calliper brakes would reduce the weight of the assembly me thinks. so with the front wheel on a fork too, this sounds like a trip to the ol' bike junkyard.

 

if you think it's tiring talking all this over, just wait 'til we get out there in the mountains & forest. lions & tigers & bears...oh my!

[JMJones0424]

the idea of having a hot-plate, and indeed electrical power at all is that with a wagon, you can.

 

Hehe, I think you have identified my mental block. I am approaching the situation from the wrong angle. I am so used to paring everything down to the least amount necessary, while you are trying to carry the most you are able to carry. What you really need is a pack mule, not a wagon... but that would be another thread :)

 

The following is how I would meet your same requirements, presumably using means that weigh less and are more versatile. However, my spartan approach means any or all of this may be irrelevant to your situation. I am working from the assumption that stored electrical power is required for the cameras and communication devices. I have little positive experience with small solar or kinetic rechargers, though that was some time ago, so the situation may have changed by now. Assuming it hasn't though, the following would be a way to minimize other electrical use, and therefore extend the useful life of your stored electricity.

 

Light

I have two types of flashlights that I carry- an LED headlamp and a 2 AA battery powered LED maglite. I like to minimize their use though, as I usually don't carry replacement batteries for the headlamp and only usually carry 2 extra AAs. According to the manufacturer, the maglite's battery life is 18 hours on high and 31 hours on low. So even with extensive use, 2 AAs a week should be sufficient. I use the red lens so I don't destroy my night vision, and only use the flashlight when I must.

 

 

Cooking and Heating

I carry Sterno brand gel fuel cans that have a continuous burn of about two hours each. I nearly always cook over a fire, but if it's raining (and I'm not in bear country), I have a modified coffee can that I use with the sterno inside as a small stove to cook a small meal in a canteen cup inside my tent. If all available wood is wet on the outside, and I can't find a source of dry punky wood to start a fire, I take a small section off the bottom of a cotton t-shirt and rub in a small amount of sterno gel to make a small fire-starting wick. It takes some practice (and a little knowledge of the plants available to identify the best tinder) but even in the wettest conditions (as long as it isn't currently raining), you can usually find enough tinder and kindling to get a fire going. Rarely is firewood so wet on the inside that it won't burn, even in a small campfire.

 

I try to have the correct clothes, sleeping bag, and tent available so that no additional heat is necessary. I have on occasion used a sterno can to knock the chill off inside the tent before going to bed for ten minutes or so, just obviously make sure that you don't go to sleep with the can lit. Two sterno cans a week should be more than sufficient if they are used sparingly, though I would double the number if you expect extended periods of constant rain.

 

Ropes

I never go backpacking without carrying at a minimum-

1 ~150 foot rappel line (increase to 2 if going through rugged terrain.)

2 12 foot sling ropes (per person)

3 Prussic cords (per person)

3 locking carabiners (per person)

2 non-locking carabiners (per person)

 

NOTE: Rappel line can be expensive. Since we are not planning on rappelling, but rather ascending or descending steep slopes, lines that have been deemed unsuitable for rappelling because of wear can be safely used. Inspect the rope to make sure there is never any broken strands of the outer sheath and that the inner core is unbroken. Sling ropes may be cut from this line as well.

 

Rather than spamming your thread with rope technique, I will start another thread here. Besides winching up and lowering down slopes, you can accomplish other tasks with this rudimentary equpiment that you can't with a battery operated winch and cable. The techniques required are easy to learn in a day, and with a little practice their application becomes second nature.

[Turtle]

Hehe, I think you have identified my mental block. I am approaching the situation from the wrong angle. I am so used to paring everything down to the least amount necessary, while you are trying to carry the most you are able to carry. What you really need is a pack mule, not a wagon... but that would be another thread :)

 

well, i'm not exactly trying to carry as much as i can. fair to say though that i'm taking electricity because it's the better part of our current technology and because i can. if folks show up to the rally with no electricity on board then i'll just make another class for them to compete in.

 

The following is how I would meet your same requirements, presumably using means that weigh less and are more versatile. However, my spartan approach means any or all of this may be irrelevant to your situation. I am working from the assumption that stored electrical power is required for the cameras and communication devices. I have little positive experience with small solar or kinetic rechargers, though that was some time ago, so the situation may have changed by now. Assuming it hasn't though, the following would be a way to minimize other electrical use, and therefore extend the useful life of your stored electricity.

 

i'm having trouble accessing the thread where i laid out my system, but i have a 100amphour battery, 25 watts of solar panel(1 15w & 2 5w), an 800 watt inverter, a power strip & some extension cords. ac & dc power until the battery wears out; about 5 years. as with any resource, there is a certain amount of management required of course.

 

Light

I have two types of flashlights that I carry- an LED headlamp and a 2 AA battery powered LED maglite. I like to minimize their use though, as I usually don't carry replacement batteries for the headlamp and only usually carry 2 extra AAs. According to the manufacturer, the maglite's battery life is 18 hours on high and 31 hours on low. So even with extensive use, 2 AAs a week should be sufficient. I use the red lens so I don't destroy my night vision, and only use the flashlight when I must.

 

i'm blind in one eye and barely see out of the other, got a bad back with a slight tendency to clumsiness & vertigo so i maximize my light use. i have similar small flashlights as well as one of those handheld spotlights that plugs in a cigarette-lighter socket, plus a clamp on 120v hooded lamp with fluorescent twisty bulbs.

 

 

Cooking and Heating

I carry Sterno brand gel fuel cans that have a continuous burn of about two hours each. I nearly always cook over a fire, but if it's raining (and I'm not in bear country), I have a modified coffee can that I use with the sterno inside as a small stove to cook a small meal in a canteen cup inside my tent. If all available wood is wet on the outside, and I can't find a source of dry punky wood to start a fire, I take a small section off the bottom of a cotton t-shirt and rub in a small amount of sterno gel to make a small fire-starting wick. It takes some practice (and a little knowledge of the plants available to identify the best tinder) but even in the wettest conditions (as long as it isn't currently raining), you can usually find enough tinder and kindling to get a fire going. Rarely is firewood so wet on the inside that it won't burn, even in a small campfire.

 

I try to have the correct clothes, sleeping bag, and tent available so that no additional heat is necessary. I have on occasion used a sterno can to knock the chill off inside the tent before going to bed for ten minutes or so, just obviously make sure that you don't go to sleep with the can lit. Two sterno cans a week should be more than sufficient if they are used sparingly, though I would double the number if you expect extended periods of constant rain.

 

:thumbs_up all good stuff. i make fire-starters by melting paraffin & pouring it into paper egg cartons.

 

 

Ropes

I never go backpacking without carrying at a minimum-

1 ~150 foot rappel line (increase to 2 if going through rugged terrain.)

2 12 foot sling ropes (per person)

3 Prussic cords (per person)

3 locking carabiners (per person)

2 non-locking carabiners (per person)

 

NOTE: Rappel line can be expensive. Since we are not planning on rappelling, but rather ascending or descending steep slopes, lines that have been deemed unsuitable for rappelling because of wear can be safely used. Inspect the rope to make sure there is never any broken strands of the outer sheath and that the inner core is unbroken. Sling ropes may be cut from this line as well.

 

Rather than spamming your thread with rope technique, I will start another thread and edit this post with a link. Besides winching up and lowering down slopes, you can accomplish other tasks with this rudimentary equpiment that you can't with a battery operated winch and cable. The techniques required are easy to learn in a day, and with a little practice their application becomes second nature.

 

again; sounds good. :thumbs_up for my main "rope" i have ~ 700 feet of 2500 pound test nylon braided strapping that they use to pull cables through conduits. add to that an assortment of lighter ropes & strings. besides the winch i have a hand operated "come-along", but the throw is only about 10 feet whereas i have a 30 foot throw on the winch. given the capacity of my winch(s), it seems logical there are loads/situations where they would do what just ropes without block-n-tackle could not do. using the winch electrically i can also stand-off to operate it, freeing my hands to clear obstructions etcetera & potentially keeping me the heck out of the way when something goes wrong. curse you murphy!!! :rant:

 

looking forward to the new thread & getting some tips.

 

in the best spirit of the Icemean, i want to be found dead 5000 years later surrounded with the best i could lay my hands on. (while for a long time they thought the guy died of exposure, they now have evidence Ötzi was murdered. :omg: ) anyway, wagons ho!

[Daegurth]

i've been out for a few days with illness and workload- so here goes the longest-ever post. :P

 

i think i mentioned how i would handle (:doh:) the brake actuator, but i drew up a little sketch today for it. either bicycle or motorcycle brake and the rod either a metal tube or wooden dowel. the wire bail on the end is to lock it down, and below the actuator a drawing of a storage tube to stick the actuator in & get it out of your hand -but still keep it handy - when not in use. with maybe 4 or 5 feet of cable you can operate the brake from the front, sides, or behind the wagon. servicable no matter what brake type you have.

 

that's pretty much exactly what i had in mind too, so i'm glad that it works for someone else in theory too!

 

In my platoon in the Marines, we had a saying. An ounce at insert equals a pound at extract.

 

i learnt that the hard way over 3 days of 2000-odd foot mountains back when i used to kitchen-sink-hike. never again. lightness is victory!

 

In other words, saving weight, even the tiniest amount, makes a HUGE difference later on down the road. At walking speed, I doubt any form of suspension is necessary. If something is so delicate that it can not survive minor jostling encountered in transit, then it probably ought to be carried on your body anyway. The only shock absorbance I think you should be focused on is in the physical connection from wagon to person, anything else is unnecessary weight.

 

i disagree here- at least, for my inherently-unstable (but much more maneuvreable) design. with solid wheels, there's no pneumatic damping, so any shocks are amplified by the size of the thing, and would likely lead to wild oscillations on tree roots or rocky terrain. i still haven't firmly decided on the nature of the human-wagon connection, i think that would be determined properly by empirical testing. which alas, will have to wait.

 

Likewise, how important is it to have an electric hotplate? Unless you have access to AC, I would think the weight of all the equipment needed to power the thing would make it a very expensive luxury.

 

i certainly agree here- i can't believe that with all this mobile infrastructure, it would be impossible to light a fire. i have two tarps which could block wind and rain from two directions, an axe to get at the dry core of thick branches and feather them, and a heavy, solid wagon for more stability and weather protection. with a firesteel and a constantly-replenished tinderbox, i don't think a fire would ever be a problem.

 

I think there are two main functions of brakes. The first, and most important, is a safety to prevent the wagon from running you down or accelerating a downhill slide if you were to lose your footing. To meet this function, you need to design a quick release type of setup, so that the brakes are set to engage as their normal state, and can be immediately triggered in case of an accident. If the spokes of the wheel are rigid, like plastic BMX wheels (which I think they should be anyway unless you are traveling solely on roads or trails), you could rig up some type of spring loaded obstruction to pop out and stop the wheels from rotating if you fall. Of course, this won't prevent the tires from sliding, but neither will bicycle brakes. I have a few ideas of how to accomplish this, but I haven't thought of any one application that could accommadate all possible instances where the "emergency brake" would need to be triggered.

 

i like this e-brake idea, but i'm not sure what the triggering mechanism would be- how would an automated, mechanical system, decide it was an emergency? and how could it be engineered simply in order to reduce failure rate? you make a good point on wheel type, though. i wonder if i could find 24 or 26 inch solid-spoke wheels. maybe downhill mountain bikes have that option. they'd be easier to fix, too- a simple plate bolted across a split would be a simple on-the-go repair.

 

The second function of brakes would be to provide rolling resistance to the wheels while traveling downhill, or temporarily while coming down the other side of a large obstruction, like a log or a big rock. Typical compression style brakes found on bikes would be ideal, as you could easily apply the correct amount of resistance to prevent the wagon from pushing you over. I am not convinced that these brakes would be sufficient for "emergency brakes" though.

 

this is the primary reason for my choice of disc brakes. with grippy-enough tyres, they'll stop a wagon dead if necessary on anything bar mud or ice.

 

just gobbling ideas up here. agreed on no need of shock absorbers on wagon.

 

the idea of having a hot-plate, and indeed electrical power at all is that with a wagon, you can. besides cooking, heating, and light with an ac inverter running off a 12 volt battery, you can recharge batteries for the cell phone, gps, flashlights, radios, cameras, etcetera. i also have a 12volt portable winch & optional hand-crank for the tough spots. given that my deep cell alone weighs 52 pounds, just the battery is a load for the lay hiker. :omg: then we have the times when you can't get a fire going and having electrical power isn't such a bad survival idea. :lightning

 

i was also thinking of the electrical being part of the rally requirement, i.e. part of a contest/challenge on the route where participants must use their electrical systems to complete some task.

 

the primary reason for my electrics is to charge the low-power electronics. i don't think any high-power stuff is necessary given that to me, the whole point of getting out there is to escape TVs and other appliances.

 

secondary is to power the low-voltage lighting system and the warming plate for the solar water filter (increase kinetic energy, therefore increase range of photon energies which will be able to liberate water molecules). if i didn't have these two, i wouldn't have the electrics at all- i would just take a self-contained solar/crank charging station.

 

an electrifying task! hmm... sounds like it could be fun. what kind of task were you thinking about?

 

roger e-brake. hadn't thought of that. :doh: i like the idea of having it separate from the rolling resistance. maybe if you have wire spoke wheels you could have a small "log" that would drop down & chock the wheels. :shrug:

 

yep; backward pedaling brakes are "coaster brakes". coaster brakes are variable to applied pressure, but fine tuning them would be a matter of tinkering i'm thinkering. i was also thinkering that if i did as as said with 2 coaster brake wheels mounted in cut off bike frames, one brake arm would be inboard and one outboard. not sure if that's a big problem or not. anyway, using 2 front forks instead with calliper brakes would reduce the weight of the assembly me thinks. so with the front wheel on a fork too, this sounds like a trip to the ol' bike junkyard.

 

if you think it's tiring talking all this over, just wait 'til we get out there in the mountains & forest. lions & tigers & bears...oh my!

 

that would likely work, but perhaps there's a better method where the spokes would be less likely to bend?

 

yeah, i'm wondering where i would affix the brake mechanism to the frame in order to fit over the disc, now. hmm...

 

Hehe, I think you have identified my mental block. I am approaching the situation from the wrong angle. I am so used to paring everything down to the least amount necessary, while you are trying to carry the most you are able to carry. What you really need is a pack mule, not a wagon... but that would be another thread :)

 

i am, in fact, trying to outfit my theoretical wagon this way- no high power appliances means no deep-cycle battery. tarps instead of tents (i'm not much a fan of tents any more anyway, i've used tarps for the last few years now). taking lightweight equipment where possible, like titanium over steel (sometimes SS is just a must though).

 

The following is how I would meet your same requirements, presumably using means that weigh less and are more versatile. However, my spartan approach means any or all of this may be irrelevant to your situation. I am working from the assumption that stored electrical power is required for the cameras and communication devices. I have little positive experience with small solar or kinetic rechargers, though that was some time ago, so the situation may have changed by now. Assuming it hasn't though, the following would be a way to minimize other electrical use, and therefore extend the useful life of your stored electricity.

 

Light

I have two types of flashlights that I carry- an LED headlamp and a 2 AA battery powered LED maglite. I like to minimize their use though, as I usually don't carry replacement batteries for the headlamp and only usually carry 2 extra AAs. According to the manufacturer, the maglite's battery life is 18 hours on high and 31 hours on low. So even with extensive use, 2 AAs a week should be sufficient. I use the red lens so I don't destroy my night vision, and only use the flashlight when I must.

 

i hadn't thought about torches, but that's probably a good plan. i prefer just to use my night-eyes where possible, but on a cloudy night under heavy leaf canopy, that might not be possible. but the red filter is still a good idea.

 

 

I carry Sterno brand gel fuel cans that have a continuous burn of about two hours each. I nearly always cook over a fire, but if it's raining (and I'm not in bear country), I have a modified coffee can that I use with the sterno inside as a small stove to cook a small meal in a canteen cup inside my tent. If all available wood is wet on the outside, and I can't find a source of dry punky wood to start a fire, I take a small section off the bottom of a cotton t-shirt and rub in a small amount of sterno gel to make a small fire-starting wick. It takes some practice (and a little knowledge of the plants available to identify the best tinder) but even in the wettest conditions (as long as it isn't currently raining), you can usually find enough tinder and kindling to get a fire going. Rarely is firewood so wet on the inside that it won't burn, even in a small campfire.

 

hmm... i've been trying to think of some kind of ready-to-use fuel (gel, hexy, petrol-in-sand, whatever) that i could carry, but i haven't arrived at a conclusion yet. it'd have to run in the flat-pack stove though.

 

i agree- and try to practice firelighting in all conditions as much as possible (when i'm not stuck in the city, as i usually am :(. but not for too much longer! :D)

 

I try to have the correct clothes, sleeping bag, and tent available so that no additional heat is necessary. I have on occasion used a sterno can to knock the chill off inside the tent before going to bed for ten minutes or so, just obviously make sure that you don't go to sleep with the can lit. Two sterno cans a week should be more than sufficient if they are used sparingly, though I would double the number if you expect extended periods of constant rain.

 

it depends on what you're cooking, really- you could really save on fuel by getting self-heating MREs! :P to minimise firewood use (and thus collection time/energy expenditure, increasing metabolic efficiency), i'm thinking mostly basic soups, stews, pasta, dehydrated rations, etc in a billy can with a pot cosy, certainly for a trip of a week or less.

 

well, i'm not exactly trying to carry as much as i can. fair to say though that i'm taking electricity because it's the better part of our current technology and because i can. if folks show up to the rally with no electricity on board then i'll just make another class for them to compete in.

 

i could have a removable electrical module to compete in both classes! hahah.

 

for my main "rope" i have ~ 700 feet of 2500 pound test nylon braided strapping that they use to pull cables through conduits. add to that an assortment of lighter ropes & strings. besides the winch i have a hand operated "come-along", but the throw is only about 10 feet whereas i have a 30 foot throw on the winch. given the capacity of my winch(s), it seems logical there are loads/situations where they would do what just ropes without block-n-tackle could not do. using the winch electrically i can also stand-off to operate it, freeing my hands to clear obstructions etcetera & potentially keeping me the heck out of the way when something goes wrong.

 

with all this rope talk, i feel like i should look into it more! my initial reaction to it was just what JM suggested- unrated climbing ropes. they're usually still almost as-new, but after a slight jolt, can't be climbed on any more. they have some give to them too, and are comfortable to work with by hand. all this said, there might be a less bulky, lighter-weight industry-standard rope which could be better. hard to say, without looking.

[Ken]

Hehe, I think you have identified my mental block. I am approaching the situation from the wrong angle. I am so used to paring everything down to the least amount necessary, while you are trying to carry the most you are able to carry. What you really need is a pack mule, not a wagon... but that would be another thread :)

 

The following is how I would meet your same requirements, presumably using means that weigh less and are more versatile. However, my spartan approach means any or all of this may be irrelevant to your situation. I am working from the assumption that stored electrical power is required for the cameras and communication devices. I have little positive experience with small solar or kinetic rechargers, though that was some time ago, so the situation may have changed by now. Assuming it hasn't though, the following would be a way to minimize other electrical use, and therefore extend the useful life of your stored electricity.

 

Light

I have two types of flashlights that I carry- an LED headlamp and a 2 AA battery powered LED maglite. I like to minimize their use though, as I usually don't carry replacement batteries for the headlamp and only usually carry 2 extra AAs. According to the manufacturer, the maglite's battery life is 18 hours on high and 31 hours on low. So even with extensive use, 2 AAs a week should be sufficient. I use the red lens so I don't destroy my night vision, and only use the flashlight when I must.

 

 

Cooking and Heating

I carry Sterno brand gel fuel cans that have a continuous burn of about two hours each. I nearly always cook over a fire, but if it's raining (and I'm not in bear country), I have a modified coffee can that I use with the sterno inside as a small stove to cook a small meal in a canteen cup inside my tent. If all available wood is wet on the outside, and I can't find a source of dry punky wood to start a fire, I take a small section off the bottom of a cotton t-shirt and rub in a small amount of sterno gel to make a small fire-starting wick. It takes some practice (and a little knowledge of the plants available to identify the best tinder) but even in the wettest conditions (as long as it isn't currently raining), you can usually find enough tinder and kindling to get a fire going. Rarely is firewood so wet on the inside that it won't burn, even in a small campfire.

 

I try to have the correct clothes, sleeping bag, and tent available so that no additional heat is necessary. I have on occasion used a sterno can to knock the chill off inside the tent before going to bed for ten minutes or so, just obviously make sure that you don't go to sleep with the can lit. Two sterno cans a week should be more than sufficient if they are used sparingly, though I would double the number if you expect extended periods of constant rain.

 

Ropes

I never go backpacking without carrying at a minimum-

1 ~150 foot rappel line (increase to 2 if going through rugged terrain.)

2 12 foot sling ropes (per person)

3 Prussic cords (per person)

3 locking carabiners (per person)

2 non-locking carabiners (per person)

 

NOTE: Rappel line can be expensive. Since we are not planning on rappelling, but rather ascending or descending steep slopes, lines that have been deemed unsuitable for rappelling because of wear can be safely used. Inspect the rope to make sure there is never any broken strands of the outer sheath and that the inner core is unbroken. Sling ropes may be cut from this line as well.

 

Rather than spamming your thread with rope technique, I will start another thread and edit this post with a link. Besides winching up and lowering down slopes, you can accomplish other tasks with this rudimentary equpiment that you can't with a battery operated winch and cable. The techniques required are easy to learn in a day, and with a little practice their application becomes second nature.

 

JM

 

Your post sent me to me to one of my bookcases, the one with two rows of Robert Heinlein novels and essays. In his novel Time Enough For Love he has a series of Variations on a Theme and in one of the sub-stories, entitled The Tale of the Adopted Daughter, he wrestles with this problem.

 

Basic premise is that a small human colony exists on a largely unknown world. The protagonist and his wife set out to pioneer an uninhabited region. He provides a convincing rationale on how this would only be accomplished by 1850s technology - mule drawn wagons. B)

 

And he writes about his selection of articles to carry on his Conestoga wagons.

 

Here's how you load a wagon for survival.

First, list everything you expect to need and everything you would like to take:

-wagons, spare wheels, spare axles

-Mules, harness, spare hardware and harness leather, saddles

-water.

-food

-clothing

-Blankets

-weapons, ammunition, repair kit

-Medicines, drugs, surgical instruments, bandages

-Books

-Plows

-Harrow

-Field rake

-Shovels, hand rakes, hoes, seeders, three- five- & seven-tine forks

-Harvester

-Blacksmith's tools

-Carpentry tools

-Iron cookstove

-Water closet, self-flushing type :unsure:

-Oil lamps

-Windmill & pump

-Sawmill run by windpower

-Leatherworking & harness repair tools

-Bed, table, chairs, dishes, pots, pans, eating & cooking gear

-Binoculars, microscope, water testing kit

-Grindstone

-Wheelbarrow

-Churn

-Buckets, sieves, assorted small hardware

-Milch cow & bull

-Chickens

-Salt for stock and people

-Packaged yeast, yeast starter

-Seed grain, several sorts

Grinder for whole-grain flour, meat grinder

 

Don't stop there; think big. Never mind the fact that you've already overloaded a much longer wagon train. Search your imagination, check the manifest of the Andy J (NB:the colony carrying space ship), search the ship itself, look over the stock in Rick's General Store, talk with John Magee and look over his house and farm and outbuildings - if you forget it now , it's impossible to go back for it.

 

-Musical instruments, writing materials, diaries, calendars, baby clothes, layette

-Spinning wheel, loom, sewing materials, -- sheep[!

-Tannin and leather-curing materials, and tools, clocks, watches

-Root vegetables, rooted fruit=tree seedlings, other seed

Etc., etc., etc..

 

Now start trimming -- start swapping -start figuring weights.

 

 

Certainly it's not meant to guide our hard-shelled friend but it's an impressive list from an author who obviously gave it considerable thought and who I think would enjoy this discussion.

[Turtle]

snip...

Your [jmjones] post sent me to me to one of my bookcases, the one with two rows of Robert Heinlein novels and essays. In his novel Time Enough For Love he has a series of Variations on a Theme and in one of the sub-stories, entitled The Tale of the Adopted Daughter, he wrestles with this problem.

 

Basic premise is that a small human colony exists on a largely unknown world. The protagonist and his wife set out to pioneer an uninhabited region. He provides a convincing rationale on how this would only be accomplished by 1850s technology - mule drawn wagons. B)

 

And he writes about his selection of articles to carry on his Conestoga wagons.

 

Certainly it's not meant to guide our hard-shelled friend but it's an impressive list from an author who obviously gave it considerable thought and who I think would enjoy this discussion.

 

:lol: fortunately i'm soft-headed enough to enjoy a discussion with a dead guy.

 

speaking of which, i thought i talked up brigham young in this thread but i have skimmed the whole of it twice and not found the mention. :shrug: so, 2 fiction writers and a turtle went into an unknown wood & ... :lol:

 

anyway, no thanks to the mules or goats or oxen or domesticated non-human critters of any ilk, and on to some 19^th century handcarts of proven worth.

 

Mormon handcart pioneers

Built to Brigham Young's design, the handcarts resembled a large wheelbarrow, with two wheels five feet (1.5 m) in diameter and a single axle four and half feet (1.4 m) wide, and weighing 60 pounds (27 kg). Running along each side of the bed were seven-foot (2.1 m) pull shafts ending with a three-foot (0.9 m) crossbar at the front. The crossbar allowed the carts to be pushed or pulled. Cargo was carried in a box about three feet by four feet (0.9 m by 1.2 m), with 8 inch (0.2 m) walls. The handcarts generally carried up to 250 pounds (110 kg) of supplies and luggage, though they were capable of handling loads as heavy as 500 pounds (230 kg). Carts used in the first year's migration were made entirely of wood ("Iowa hickory or oak"); in later years a stronger design was substituted, which included metal elements.[9]

...

1856: First three companies

The first two ships departed England in late March and mid-April and sailed to Boston. The emigrants spent several weeks in Iowa City, where they constructed their handcarts and were outfitted with supplies before beginning their trek of about 1,300 miles (2,093 km).

 

do ya s'pose this guy would have taken electric socks if'n he coulda? :winter_brr:

[Ken]

:lol: fortunately i'm soft-headed enough to enjoy a discussion with a dead guy.

 

...snip...

 

do ya s'pose this guy would have taken electric socks if'n he coulda? :winter_brr:

 

Not too worry, my base camp wagon has a 6300W generator. You just need to supply the propane.

 

:D

[Turtle]

Not too worry, my base camp wagon has a 6300W generator. You just need to supply the propane.

 

:D

 

roger. you'll need the juice as there is no power hook-up at base camp. :lightning i was of course refering to having the power for electric socks on the hand-cart/wagon pictured in the mormon re-enactment photo, and by extension our wagons. on that note, i did some looking for 5 foot diameter wheels/tires & got zilch. biggest bike tire i can find is 29 inches. little help here? turtle down! :lol:

[Ken]

roger. you'll need the juice as there is no power hook-up at base camp. :lightning i was of course refering to having the power for electric socks on the hand-cart/wagon pictured in the mormon re-enactment photo, and by extension our wagons. on that note, i did some looking for 5 foot diameter wheels/tires & got zilch. biggest bike tire i can find is 29 inches. little help here? turtle down! :lol:

 

 

Quick Google brought up this. I don't think in metric so I don't know if its relevant.

 

???

[Daegurth]

looked like they might have been discussing a 32" tyre. but if you have to buy michelin or specialized, it's gonna cost. :surprise: that's not accounting for the wheel itseelf, either.

[Turtle]

thnx fellas. 5 foot wheels seem rather imparactical anyway. but, i found out that i may have 2 abandoned bikes if i haul them so i think i may in spite of my aversion to acquisitions. they are different sizes - a 24" & a 20" i think - but that's perfect for traversing slopes. :doh:

 

how's the other wagons coming? how many wagons does it take to circle up anyway? :circle:

 

while i'm not there yet, mr. jones has me on the verge of abandoning the electric winch in favor of the rope techniques he earlier mentioned. here's the thread he promised on that: fascinating!

Basic Rope Technique

[Turtle]

while going through my rope sack i ran across the ol' giant sling shot. :omg: just a 25 foot length of 1/2" 1/4" bungee cord and a cardboard & duct-tape pouch. i took a pic but apparently didn't save it; will get another in a bit. anyway, besides laying siege ()this slingshot will work for throwing a line attached to a missle, just as the bow & arrow. one can tie the bungee off to trees if they are available, or have peoples holding the ends, if they are available. from a few field trials i can tell you those peoples might want to put on helmets. :hihi:

 

well, see attached image for the overall idea.

 

Edit: got another shot of my pouch & cord. the cord is 1/4", not 1/2.

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

*bump*