Survival Wagon Idea - Recreation Or Reality TV

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

while you might put a heavier load on a certain tire, if you can't actually pull by-hand that heavier load then the extra beef is wasted.

But, if the rims and tires can't handle the weight you need to carry you aren't getting anywhere fast either

With heavier rims you can carry more, if you can carry more it makes sense to drag along company

There are some things you don't need multiples of despite an increase in the numbers of tagalongs. In my case Pupster and Sweety... hitch the pup's harness up, use a T handle instead of a U and the three of us can haul more gear than a solo.

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

28 pounds!!! may have to chuck that one.

Should get a completely manual one like those found on boat trailers....they're pretty darn light.

[Turtle]

But, if the rims and tires can't handle the weight you need to carry you aren't getting anywhere fast either

With heavier rims you can carry more, if you can carry more it makes sense to drag along company

There are some things you don't need multiples of despite an increase in the numbers of tagalongs. In my case Pupster and Sweety... hitch the pup's harness up, use a T handle instead of a U and the three of us can haul more gear than a solo.

 

i think teams are good. :thumbs_up in my hilly terrain test of my wagon light-loaded (wagon is 90 pounds dry; had about a 60 pound load) i had a team-mate and with no brakes, it was necessary. :omg: one pulling, one pushing & chocking, 2 sweating. then there was those little tires getting over even a 6" log and needing a puller and a lifter. :unsure: by myself i would have been winching all day, both up & down.

 

still, there is my core idea that there is a limit to how much cargo a single person can carry in a pack or bags or whatnot over varied terrain. then there is also a limit to how much cargo one person can pull/push/winch with a wagon. clearly the wagon cargo is the heavier manageable load, ergo -if the cargo is chosen wisely- the wagon as a survival tool is advantageous.

 

as to the reality TV aspect, what could be more entertaining than to see one team screaming red-faced at one-another as they are dragged down the hill by their wagon that someone said didn't need a quick release belt for stupid! :rant: :lightning: ahhhh don't we just love to see people being real!!

Edited December 13, 2012 by Turtle

[Turtle]

Should get a completely manual one like those found on boat trailers....they're pretty darn light.

 

that would be a good choice too. :thumbs_up you can easily find one laying around your neighbors boat trailer tongue thingy.

 

for my setup, i think now that the electric weighs too much and with my come-along and the new rope techniques i have learned and am learning from mr. jones (here > Basic Rope Techniques ), i think i have a handle on hauling. got my first real carabiner a couple months ago; rated @ 7,000 pounds along the spine. :xparty:

[Turtle]

this looks like a good canoe to saw in half for only $879. at 38" in the beam however, i think it's too wide for wagonage. at least it won't fit through a "regular" house door which range usually here from 28" to 36". at just over 24", my wagon is good to go in in suburbia. :D

 

maybe passing through a 28" door ought to be a rally requirement? that would restrict height as well. so now i'm thinking articulated wagon... 4 wheels, but by virtue of 2 connected 2-wheel carts. :blink: some manner of universal joint to join perhaps. :shrug:

 

oh! the canoe. 12 footer, .032 gauge aluminium, weighs only 34 pounds.

 

12' Radisson Canoe @ DirectBoats.com

 

...Constructed from a single sheet of marine aluminum High tensile strengths and stiffness means excellent hull integrity, long lasting durability, and high strength-to-weight ratio.

 

Impact resistant - will only dent rather than puncture 5250 marine aluminum will not embrittle, delaminate, peel, water log, check, rot or swell. It assures uniform thickness of hull sections. Elasticity of the metal due to it's 2.5% magnesium content reduce chances of puncturing. Underwater objects frequently only dent rather than puncture the hull. ...

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

I tells ya Mr Turtle that's WAY too thin!

.032 is about 1/32"...and close ups reveal riveted construction...all in all, I think loaded with gear out of the water it would buckle if you tried to move it without some sort of subframe to cradle it....OOOOOO! Here we go! Needs minor redesign for maneuverability though.

 

 

 

I know you don't like the idea of pedal power but...

Edited December 13, 2012 by DFINITLYDISTRUBD

[Turtle]

I tells ya Mr Turtle that's WAY too thin!

.032 is about 1/32"...and close ups reveal riveted construction...all in all, I think loaded with gear out of the water it would buckle if you tried to move it without some sort of subframe to cradle it....OOOOOO! Here we go! Needs minor redesign for maneuverability though.

 

 

 

 

ok on the aluminium. like i got $900 to spend on anything. :lol: but, if someone gave me a canoe, i be cuttin' that puppy in half.

 

the wooden...erhm...thing is cool. clever use of the front wheel as the rudder when it's in the water. :thumbs_up 3-wheel design like i keep harping on is brilliant!! :rolleyes: practicallity on rough terrain? sure; bring it along. we can use it for firewood.

 

I know you don't like the idea of pedal power but...

 

weeeellll... that is pretty cool and all i'd have to do is cut that pedal malarky off to have a pretty decent wagon. :omg: :hammer: disk brakes even!! :smart: note that with big wheels in front -whether single or double- the wheel(s) have to be out front on some type of arm so they can turn. you don't want big wheels under the wagon because then the center of gravity is too high.

 

but, you make a good point so i have decided to allow a special exhibition class for pedal powered wagons. they will not qualify for prizes however.

 

we'll just see how they stack up with hand-pulled/pushed over sustained rough terrain. with a 300 pound load, i bet they turn out to be wagons with pedals & not pedal-powered wagons. :P and before you ask, no!! you cannot pedal power a generator to charge a battery to power a motor to drive the wagon!! :naughty: i'm surprised at you for even asking. :rolleyes:

 

wagons ho!!

Edited December 14, 2012 by Turtle

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

LOL! You know... the biggest reason I enjoy pestering you so much is that you are almost always good for a good laugh

we'll just see how they stack up with hand-pulled/pushed over sustained rough terrain. with a 300 pound load, i bet they turn out to be wagons with pedals & not pedal-powered wagons. :P and before you ask, no!! you cannot pedal power a generator to charge a battery to power a motor to drive the wagon!! :naughty: i'm surprised at you for even asking. :rolleyes:

I dunno, seems to me advantageous... even if at times one must hop off an maneuver with a towing handle. With proper gearing up the hill would be only marginally slower, but downhill hoooboy! out ta way der slowpokes! Down I go! On the flat fogedaboudit see ya! Buhbye!!

 

But looking at the design it would be a simple swap to make that bugger a two box articulated.

so now i'm thinking articulated wagon... 4 wheels, but by virtue of 2 connected 2-wheel carts. :blink: some manner of universal joint to join perhaps. :shrug:

I think the ideal option is hiding in the typical three point hitch on tractors and adjustable 4 link suspensions for solid axle vehicles....The good ol load bearing ball joint...would allow a great deal of flexibility between carts and if attached with a heavy pin and clip (as is done when attaching implements to a three point) would allow for the carts to be easily separated.

 

Now, I seem to recall an update imposing size restrictions as well....namely must fit through a standard single door

28" door

.

Getting into Radio Flyer territory, now. Having a front door that size getting 26" wide appliances through has been a tight fit usually requiring knocking out the pins and setting the door aside...Now, you've got me thinking about single track trailers made for bikes and motorcycles....perhaps

with a rigid backpack type harness. The center of gravity would have to be altered to be effective...and loading would be critical to get right but...balanced right....exactly how long a duration must one be able to survive off their kit?

Hmmm...are you planning for water hazards that will require flotation? Have had further thought on the matter. Back to that in a minute a fresh thought popped into my head...Yup typical canoes are too wide for the fit through the door rule....ok, back on track...ooops, back off track 300lbs load, plus my 250 lbs is right at the limit if not over...yup, over the maximum recommended weight by 50....hmmm...looks like a folding rigid boat for ol Sven...I need to reevaluate just what gear is absolutely essential!

[SaxonViolence]

Here is a brief analysis that I did about Handcarts for a Survival Forum:

 

 

Rag Picker Hand Carts for Bugging Out:

 

 

When I was a little boy, occasionally you'd see a fellow pushing a Handcart down the street.

 

The Cart would be maybe five foot long by five foot wide.

 

It would have two Wheels set forward—maybe twenty inches back from the Front.

 

Usually the Wheels were old Wagon wheels—probably salvaged off old Horse or Mule Drawn Wagons and passed down for fifty years or more.

 

{My father was born in 1926. When he was a boy, there were several Scavengers and even prosperous Bottom Land Farmers who still used Horse Drawn Wagons.}

 

There would be a push bar as long as the cart, set back two or three feet from the Cart's rear.

 

The push bar was just high enough to be comfortable—about the same height as a Shopping Carts Handle.

 

The Cart had legs in the rear. You had to lift it slightly—two or three inches—to push it.

 

Kinda like a Big-Ole Wheelbarrow.

 

From all appearances, the empty or lightly loaded carts pushed almost effortlessly.

 

I wish to God that I had pictures and sketches of these fellows.

 

They would sometimes knock on your door to ask if they could have something sitting on the curb for trash collection.

 

Anything with Copper Wire could be stripped and sold to the near-by Junk Yard.

 

Don't know how many were good enough handymen to get broken appliances working.

 

They would load and haul trash fairly cheap.....

 

Tear down small sheds and garages.....

 

Occasionally sell blackberries picked in the woods.

 

They disappeared about a year or two after we moved to that Neighborhood.

 

Only decades later did I think to ask my father why.

 

There was a Paper Mill in town that made good quality Linen Paper.

 

Folks all over town used to save their old clothing (Far less Synthetics back then) and give them to the Rag-Pickers.

 

It was like a pioneering recycling project.

 

When the Paper Mill closed, there was insufficient pecuniary incentive to be a Push Cart Dude.

 

A couple of years after the Rag Pickers Disappeared, the City Condemned and Raised the Little Shanty Town below the hill, where the Rag Pickers and other poor folk lived.

 

Ruined a Vibrant, Functioning and Unique Community and substituted a Pre-Fabricated Ghetto to be inhabited by the Section "8" Clique.

 

This is called "Urban Renewal".

 

At any rate, I believe that these Carts were very similar to the ones the Mormons used to "Push-and-Pull" their way to Utah.

 

{Ever heard that Olde Tyme Song?}

 

At any rate.....

 

Survival Scenarios vary.

 

There are times and places where pushing a Cart filled with Survival Gear down the Middle of the Street would be tantamount to ringing a Dinner-Bell while shouting;

 

"Come and get it (And me!) !!!"

 

Into a Bullhorn.

 

Nonetheless, there are Scenarios where one could walk down the Street—or out on the Interstate—pushing a Rag Picker's Cart.

 

No need to run yourself ragged looking for Wagon Wheels.

 

Bicycle Tires—with Ball-Bearings!—should do you proud.

 

Auto Tires are even possible—though unnecessarily heavy.

 

Friend, you ought to be able to haul 500-1000 pounds of Survival Gear that way.

 

{My Cart would be more "Finished" than the Rag Pickers'—assuming that I didn't have to cobble it together from PAW Refuse.}

 

Steel plate is ridiculously heavy, but old worn out Kevlar Vests are. So is Kevlar Cloth in Sheets. You can also buy Lexan in Sheets.

 

At Least part of the Cart would be pretty good cover as well as protecting Some of My Treasures from Stray Bullets.

 

If instead of mere Side Boards, if I mount Two-foot high Drawers down each side, I can put the stuff that I want to utilize frequently there.

 

I think that I could also build in a Secret Drawer on each side, offering Quick Access a Pistol—or even a Carbine.

 

With two or three Folks to take turns pushing.....

 

And to help watch.....

 

Keep in mind—this isn't a Way of Life—just a means to get somewhere.

 

Too many Zombies or Faggot Bikers?

 

{Remember "Roadwarrior"?

 

Didn't all those guys look like they come from a Gay Leather Bar—at least the Bars that are used briefly as backdrops for TV Dramas.....

 

Can't say that I've been to one.....

 

Nor do I want to.....

 

And the Mohawk Man had a Significant Other sharing his Bike.....

 

Till the Miniature Ted Nugent killed the Dude with his Stainless Steel Boomerang.....

 

And while they raped the Women, they then killed them instead of saving them for later re-use.....

 

And besides, they all wore ***-Less Pants/Chaps.....

 

So around here,we refer to the Nihilistic, Short-Sighted, Stupid, Blood Thirsty Brigands that you may encounter after TEOTWAWKI as"Faggot Bikers".}

 

Now if you have to go Cross-Country a Smaller Cart will be Necessary.

 

Still 200-maybe 300 pounds of Gear is more than you could carry on your back.....

 

Look at the Game Carts and the Garden Wagons—like an upsized child's wagon—for a Guide.

 

One Dude says:

 

"Yeah, I can Pull more than I can Carry..."

 

Tilt!!!

 

We are talking about Push Carts—Not "Pull Carts".

 

I mean, occasionally you may have to resort to pulling it, due to Vagaries in the Terrain.....

 

And with a Partner, one might Push while the other Pushed to get through a tough patch.....

 

But if you're mainly thinking of Pulling, we haven't had a meeting of the minds.

 

{Did you ever watch "Ben-Hur"?

 

Do you know why Olde Tyme Chariots had such large teams of Horses?

 

Because they "Pulled" the Cart.

 

The Invention of the Wagon Tongue and Stiff Horse Collars made it possible to "Push" against the Collar.

 

Pushing is better.

 

Now think of all the Old Westerns.....

 

Two to four Horses Push a Stage Coach—relatively Heavy—With up to a half dozen people and their luggage—at a pace that a Horse with a Man on his back couldn't maintain.

 

Do you know that there are Dudes in Wheelchairs who take part in the Boston Marathon?

 

And other Marathons.

 

More Power to them.

 

Do you know why they let them go first?

 

Because they travel the course in less than half the time that an Elite Runner would.

 

Wheels—properly balanced Wheels—are Very Efficient.

 

{Not saying that being Paralyzed is any sort of Advantage in Life.

 

I'd think that would be obvious—but Nowadays.....}

 

And you may conclude that Carts are of Absolutely No Value to You.

 

Hey, that's Cool.

 

Got you to thinking though, didn't I?

 

 

 

Saxon Violence

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

Ummm...yeah, I'm not even going to go into the number of ways I find your post offensive.

 

I will however address the disadvantages of pushing over pulling.

 

Mechanically, pulling has a number of advantages over pushing.

 

1. Leverage, when pushing it is difficult to impossible to use your body as a lever.

2. Being unable to use your body as a lever denies you the ability to use the weight of your body combined with the leverage of locked legs to move the load.

3. Pushing over obstacles such as ruts or large bumps is significantly harder than pulling as the height of one's shoulder naturally provides upward as well as forward force whereas pushing only provides forwards force....facts clearly learned by heavily loading a wheelbarrow and trying pushing then pulling it over rough terrain. The only time I push mine is when it's empty.

4. Pushing transfers weight to the pusher meaning you have to provide not only forward force but to counter the downward force, whereas puling takes weight off the puller.

5. Pulling requires the use of fewer muscles as you do not have to use the muscles in your arms, allowing for more calories and oxygen to go to the muscles that are doing the work. Pushing requires the muscles in the arms to be rigid, pulling allows them to be slack.

Edited December 14, 2012 by DFINITLYDISTRUBD

[SaxonViolence]

HMMMmmnn...

 

"Rag-Picker" is sometimes used as a Derisive term, but in this instance it was merely descriptive.

 

I hold those Push-Cart Dudes in High Esteem.

 

They were doing the "Thoreau Thingy" before it even became popular.

 

Seeing those Olde Tyme Dudes is one of my Happier Childhood Memories. :)

 

The Shanty Town in Question was called "Villa Sites"—Pronounced "Vill-Uh"; it was nonetheless supposed to have been named in Honor—Or perhaps simple Commemoration—of Poncho Villa (Vee—Ah).....

 

My father was born there—though in the slightly more prosperous upper half. ;)

 

Several of my Kin Resided there. ;)

 

The place was Cool.

 

If I had a working time machine, I'd be far more interested in visiting and chronicling Villa Sites than I would the Pyramids of Egypt or the Parthenon or whatever.

 

{And if, on the off chance, anyone who reads this has any good period Photos of Villa Sites, please PM me.

 

I'd dearly like to do some Paintings of the place.}

 

People in Wheelchairs Do complete the Boston Marathon in about half the time it takes a Good Marathon Runner.....

 

But even so, people in Wheelchairs will have a Hard Row to Hoe if The Spritz Hits The Phan.

 

Geeze, is it Politikally Inkorrect to point out the obvious?

 

The invention of Stiff Horse Collars and Wagon Tongues was considered a big step forward in Transportation Technology.

 

You will note that the Romans, despite their Advanced Road System did not have Stage Coaches.....

 

But that the Wild West did.

 

I've yet to see a Lawn-Mower designed to be pulled. :blink:

 

But I'll give you a "Perhaps" on the "Push Vs Pull" Thingy. :wacko:

 

Don't be so thin-skinned.

 

Athough truthfully, I see little future in Push-Carts in a EOTWAWKI Environment, contemplating their construction and use was supposed to bring a Smile.

 

And in all likelihood, I am probably one of the few people still alive today, who remembers the Rag-Pickers and their Carts.....

 

And I Reiterate: It is a very happy memory for me.

 

"It Was Long Ago;

 

"It Was Far Away:

 

"It Was So Much Better

 

"Than It Is Today."

 

Meatloaf

 

Doubtless the idea is probably kicking around in the 3rd World.....

 

But not here in the States.....

 

O wait!

 

Is there a Politically Korrect Term for "3rd World"? :(

 

 

Saxon Violence

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

Ok, I'll help you.

1. The accepted terms are Gay and homosexual though homosexual is generally frowned upon by the gay community.

2. Mad Max and The Road Warrior are awesome flippin movies...and lighten up it was the eighties.

3. I happen to be a biker, and in general we don't tend act that way....well maybe after the second or third keg runs out I don't remember.

And that pretty much sums up the offensive portion.

 

As for your long rambling rant format...please pass what ever it is that you are smoking, I'm almost out of beer.

 

___I touched on this in another thread, but I thought I'd see if it floats on its own. Basically, a hand pulled/pushed wagon/cart designed & built to carry survival/camping supplies over long distance while maintaining a relative comfort level. :) ___I already have such a wagon & since I doubt many others do (if any) I though tto build some enthusiasm for the idea. :)In the Science Gallery/Memmbers Category/Turtle I have some photos of my basic wagon sans all the equipment. Here is a list of what's onboard that I recall just now:<br style="color: rgb(8, 8, 8); font-size: 13px; line-height: 20px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252); ">___25Watts of photo-voltaic cells, 100 AH deep cell battery, 12V electric winch, collapsable bridging(10ft), 800Watt inverter (converts 12VDC to 120VAC), freeze dried food, 10 gallons water, tent, canopy, tarps, 600 feet assorted rope & cord, nickel-metal-halide batteries & charger, multiband radio, GPS, axe, machete, shovel, bucket, tire patch kit, tire pump, hand winch, tripod, TV, video camera, blankets, cooking utensils, soap, towels, first aid kit, fire extinguisher, parachute, flag, flashlights, whistles... I'm starting to draw a blank.<br style="color: rgb(8, 8, 8); font-size: 13px; line-height: 20px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252); ">

___Enough to get the idea. Whether we raced or just went for a week in the mountains with our wagons, I think it makes for a jolly good time. Any takers? :xx:

___All good points Infamous. I had tentatively planned a 7 to 10 day leisurly trip through Gifford Pinchot National Forest from Sunset Falls to Carson for this month. My plans have been interupted by an upcoming forced move. ___As to how long the outfit provides, I have in mind it should last 'till it falls apart. Other than a camping trip, I have no expectation that I can carry more than a month or so of food for two. I myself figure I can live on what I find; this is partly due to a lifetime of camping & partly to megalomania. :) <br style="color: rgb(8, 8, 8); font-size: 13px; line-height: 20px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252); ">___Seriously though, much of what is onboard constitutes tools for securing survival. With some little rope & a knife one can make shelter, cooking utensils, traps, collect fuel,etc.<br style="color: rgb(8, 8, 8); font-size: 13px; line-height: 20px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252); ">___I have already used the electrical equipment during a power outage in an ice storm we had 2 years ago; the ham radio operator next door had no power & bailed to a motel 5 minutes after the power failed. The wagon is a convenient storage for a home survival kit even if it never goes out of the yard.<br style="color: rgb(8, 8, 8); font-size: 13px; line-height: 20px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252); ">

___After we get a few other wagons going, we can decide where to go; desert sounds as good as any! :xx:

 

 

This thread is not entirely about a survival cart for the apocalypse, but for a competition/adventure group, Turtle was trying to get going, possibly as a reality/survivor type show...though the idea of having a cart that can carry anything someone might need for extended survival has been frequently discussed.

 

[Turtle]

Ok, I'll help you.

...

This thread is not entirely about a survival cart for the apocalypse, but for a competition/adventure group, Turtle was trying to get going, possibly as a reality/survivor type show...though the idea of having a cart that can carry anything someone might need for extended survival has been frequently discussed.

 

thanks for bringing the OP to the fore doubleD. :thumbs_up seems this fella simply can't make a post here without making a genuine effort to spout something hateful or ignorant. :fly:

 

as to pushing and pulling a small heavy wagon over varied terrain, there is plenty of both i can tell you from experience with my own wagon. making the argument that i'm "pushing" my wagon when i'm belted to the tongue is a symantic quibble of no bearing on the going.

 

speaking of bearing, here's a going wagon pop quiz.

Q: what is the magnetic deviation where you live and why does it matter to a wagoner?

Edited December 15, 2012 by Turtle

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

Q: what is the magnetic deviation where you live and why does it matter to a wagoner?

I dunno...I navigate by chronograph, sun, moon, stars, and landmarks. Falling back on the trusty compass only when the first five fail. 9deg. 49min. W

[Turtle]

I dunno...I navigate by chronograph, sun, moon, stars, and landmarks. Falling back on the trusty compass only when the first five fail. 9deg. 49min. W

 

mmm...i was pretty sure i was 18.5º E, but thought i'd better check. just learned it is now ~17.6ºE and changing about 9' W per year. :omg: better re=check yours too if you have it memorized from days gone by. wouldn't want to deep-six yourself in lake erie when you break your watch on a foggy night on the trail. :steering:

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/geomagmodels/IGRFGrid.jsp

 

I'll be honest with ya I checked it here.

[Turtle]

http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/geomagmodels/IGRFGrid.jsp

 

I'll be honest with ya I checked it here.

 

i tried there, but i get an error saying they can't find the zip. oh wait!!! it must be interference from a pole shift!!! circle the wagons; the mayans are coming. :circle: